What do you believe and why do you believe it?

maxwel · Aug 5, 2019

Epistemic Warrant:

I gave several completely sound, logical, types of epistemic warrant for a Christian's beliefs.

These were examples of sound epistemic warrant, which constitute rational answers to the question "Why do you believe?"

These were not examples of evidences which would provide adequate proofs to an "outsider", but that's not what you asked for.
You asked, in your OP, for our epistemic warrant.

I gave several examples of sound, logical, epistemic warrant which will hold up to any philosophical scrutiny or rational debate.

I gave you very sound rational answers to your questions... answers which will hold up to any logical scrutiny.

Evidences:

There are MANY EVIDENCES for God which DO provide appropriate evidence for "outsiders."
But you are neither looking for this, nor listening when it's explained.
(And it's not what you asked for.)

Therefore, anything further, with you, is just a waste of everyone's time and energy.
God does NOT command Christians to provide explanations to people who don't genuinely want to hear them, and who aren't questioning sincerely.

God knows we all have a limited amount of time, and God doesn't want us wasting our time arguing with people who aren't listening.
Those bits of practical wisdom are all in the Bible... that book you don't like.

Conclusion:

I answered your question, and I answered it with several sound logical explanations, which can, and will, hold up to any scrutiny... and I didn't even need the Bible to do it.
Anything further is just a case of YOU wanting to argue with Christians and rail against God.

And we all know that's why you're here.
You want to argue, debate, and hopefully deconvert people.

.

maxwel · Aug 5, 2019

NOTE TO CHRISTIANS:

If you're just entering the thread, my explanations were given in post #70.

Please look them over, and be familiar with them... they're very useful in the antagonistic culture in which we live.

Most Christians aren't aware that our own personal experience of God actually constitutes a sound, logical argument which will hold up in secular debate.... yes... even with people who don't believe the Bible.

This means when an atheist says you're irrational believing in God because you've "experienced his presence", or you "just know he's there", you can say, "NO, that's actually quite rational. And it will hold up in debate."

.

Hazelelponi · Aug 5, 2019

I am a Christian who came to Christ from Islam.

There are two witnesses that testified of the truth of God and the faith we know as Christianity to me, Scripture and God's Holy Spirit.

To me, God and this faith / God in this faith is real, tangible, not an abstract or a possible.

I most certainly cannot explain this to an atheist, except to say you gave up too soon when you waited for answers..

I also asked God to reveal Himself to me... I just didn't give up until I got those answers. He answers us all in a manner we can understand best, because He knows our hearts best.

So, just don't give up. look in the places you understand.

Hebrews 3:15 As it is said: "Today if you should hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion."

reneweddaybyday · Aug 5, 2019

Spectrox said:

Because your faith could not withstand the "scrutiny" of the "atheists and ex-christians" you encountered, your faith was found wanting.

And rather than turn TO God to seek Him, you turned AWAY from God to stand on shifting sands. Sad …

Your inability to stand and withstand when you were talked out of what little faith you did have is inconclusive proof as to whether God exists.

In your OP, you indicated "I like to challenge my beliefs" .

Is it your intent to turn TO God and seek Him?

Is it your intent to turn others FROM God?

... just askin' ...

TLC209 · Aug 5, 2019

Jimbone said:

Ultimately no one can "give" you what you're asking for, someone can't be given truth, they have to seek it for themselves. I have to tell you that for me personally, and this isn't "proof" to or for you, but this is what convinced me. To set the tone real quick, I wasn't raised in a Christian home at all, I was a product of the public school system, and a broken home. Not bad by any means, and was well taken care of and loved, but just not in truth, not in Christ. So I didn't come with any baggage from indoctrination or anything like that. As a younger man I would have told you "All religion was man made by the power elite to control the dumb masses.", and would have proclaimed this as known truth, with certainty. I was my most certain at my most ignorant, but as I got older and my first son was born my heart softened to Jesus a little. During this time I was more like "I like the idea of Jesus, but I got bills to pay in the real world. I repeated the prayer, was even dunked under water for good measure, but that's all it was, superficial.

Along comes life, another son, addiction, work, life, school all these things as the years go by, then help for the addiction to pain pills that lead to actual prosperity. As a matter of fact on Oct. 25, 2011 while I was walking down the stairs I reflected on how awesome life was, my thoughts where something like "I just paid off both credit cards, I have money in the bank, am leaving my awesome job to hop on my motorcycle with my long "viking braid", hanging down my back, going home to my beautiful wife, who's making my favorite dinner, and my two awesome sons. "I" got life whooped, look at what "I" did." That's all I can remember be cause I never made it the 3 miles home that day and woke up 19 days later in a hospital with no function at all in my right arm. This was the beginning of me coming to truth and seeing how great I (my way) truly was.

Without making this too long I went 2 solid years wishing I was dead. As my situation kept unfolding I was just in a nosedive. First blow was that they couldn't "fix" my injury. I just had a dead arm hanging from me now, forever, and of course it was the dominate arm. Then I was not going to be compensated for it, that was my hope, and was misplaced hope because the girl that pulled out in fount of me, whose SUV I flipped hitting it T bone at about 50mph, well she had insurance and it carried 10k bodily insurance max, and I got every bit of it. Yay! Only I have 750k in medical bills who has a right to that move before I do. So that. Then the car I really love, it was a silver 07 Nissan Altima, $600 from being paid off, guy comes out of Lowes, all the way across right into my wife who was driving it and totaled out, as in the damage was less than the "totaled" amount, but close enough to call it. Just one thing after another to the point that for two solid years I could go 5 minutes without contemplating suicide. I would run down my list of justification, "My wife can find someone to love and take care of her, my job can replace me, my dad will get over it (a lie, it would have killed him), until I got to my boys, I knew no one would love them like their father, and nobody would work as hard for their good ass I would. So I was stuck.

2 years of this, every 5 minutes, every day, and I had "0" power to change any of it, and was stuck, powerless, hopeless, and broken. That is until Sept. 28th 2013 (I was 33), and I was at home alone like I never was, but it all came to a head that day. I hit my knees broken and cried out, but not what you think because at this point if I had ever believed in God, I didn't now. I tried being a "Christian" and it didn't help at all. When I hit my knees I cried out "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I QUIT!!! Then picked my tear soaked, sobbing, heap of brokenness and went to bed. The next day I woke up new, and I didn't realize until lunch "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!", and it was right then and there I knew whatever happen it was God, and that Jesus the Christ was His Son.

I wasn't sharing this simply for my story in truth to change you or convince you of anything at all, even though I pray God does, but you asked "why" I believe, and I have to tell you because I KNOW Jesus, and understand the my love for Him is beyond you understanding outside of Him. See when we bow down in front and give Him everything, He actually does something real, paradigm shifting, and powerful. He actual resurrects your dead spirit and reconciles us to Him, as we were created to be. This is why I believe and this is a custom story for each one of us, and I pray that my testimony of His power, kingship, and goodness, that this comment is part of your "custom story" of how God drew you to Himself. He is real, He is alive, and is King!!!

God is awesome!!! Brotha!! All Glory to God!!! I love your testimony! Its all true every bit of it. Gods love is so amazing! And He gives us a new heart! I no longer want to kill myself either!

God bless you bro. This guy has no clue what you just shared! Amazing.

Romans 2:28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

TLC209 · Aug 5, 2019

Spectrox said:

Heres food for thought. And it is spot on because Gods Word is the truth.

Romans 1:
20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.
22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.

calibob · Aug 5, 2019

Jimbone said:

Ultimately no one can "give" you what you're asking for, someone can't be given truth, they have to seek it for themselves. I have to tell you that for me personally, and this isn't "proof" to or for you, but this is what convinced me. To set the tone real quick, I wasn't raised in a Christian home at all, I was a product of the public school system, and a broken home. Not bad by any means, and was well taken care of and loved, but just not in truth, not in Christ. So I didn't come with any baggage from indoctrination or anything like that. As a younger man I would have told you "All religion was man made by the power elite to control the dumb masses.", and would have proclaimed this as known truth, with certainty. I was my most certain at my most ignorant, but as I got older and my first son was born my heart softened to Jesus a little. During this time I was more like "I like the idea of Jesus, but I got bills to pay in the real world. I repeated the prayer, was even dunked under water for good measure, but that's all it was, superficial.

Along comes life, another son, addiction, work, life, school all these things as the years go by, then help for the addiction to pain pills that lead to actual prosperity. As a matter of fact on Oct. 25, 2011 while I was walking down the stairs I reflected on how awesome life was, my thoughts where something like "I just paid off both credit cards, I have money in the bank, am leaving my awesome job to hop on my motorcycle with my long "viking braid", hanging down my back, going home to my beautiful wife, who's making my favorite dinner, and my two awesome sons. "I" got life whooped, look at what "I" did." That's all I can remember be cause I never made it the 3 miles home that day and woke up 19 days later in a hospital with no function at all in my right arm. This was the beginning of me coming to truth and seeing how great I (my way) truly was.

Without making this too long I went 2 solid years wishing I was dead. As my situation kept unfolding I was just in a nosedive. First blow was that they couldn't "fix" my injury. I just had a dead arm hanging from me now, forever, and of course it was the dominate arm. Then I was not going to be compensated for it, that was my hope, and was misplaced hope because the girl that pulled out in fount of me, whose SUV I flipped hitting it T bone at about 50mph, well she had insurance and it carried 10k bodily insurance max, and I got every bit of it. Yay! Only I have 750k in medical bills who has a right to that move before I do. So that. Then the car I really love, it was a silver 07 Nissan Altima, $600 from being paid off, guy comes out of Lowes, all the way across right into my wife who was driving it and totaled out, as in the damage was less than the "totaled" amount, but close enough to call it. Just one thing after another to the point that for two solid years I could go 5 minutes without contemplating suicide. I would run down my list of justification, "My wife can find someone to love and take care of her, my job can replace me, my dad will get over it (a lie, it would have killed him), until I got to my boys, I knew no one would love them like their father, and nobody would work as hard for their good ass I would. So I was stuck.

2 years of this, every 5 minutes, every day, and I had "0" power to change any of it, and was stuck, powerless, hopeless, and broken. That is until Sept. 28th 2013 (I was 33), and I was at home alone like I never was, but it all came to a head that day. I hit my knees broken and cried out, but not what you think because at this point if I had ever believed in God, I didn't now. I tried being a "Christian" and it didn't help at all. When I hit my knees I cried out "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I QUIT!!! Then picked my tear soaked, sobbing, heap of brokenness and went to bed. The next day I woke up new, and I didn't realize until lunch "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!", and it was right then and there I knew whatever happen it was God, and that Jesus the Christ was His Son.

I wasn't sharing this simply for my story in truth to change you or convince you of anything at all, even though I pray God does, but you asked "why" I believe, and I have to tell you because I KNOW Jesus, and understand the my love for Him is beyond you understanding outside of Him. See when we bow down in front and give Him everything, He actually does something real, paradigm shifting, and powerful. He actual resurrects your dead spirit and reconciles us to Him, as we were created to be. This is why I believe and this is a custom story for each one of us, and I pray that my testimony of His power, kingship, and goodness, that this comment is part of your "custom story" of how God drew you to Himself. He is real, He is alive, and is King!!!

Thank you for sharing. Some of know that there is healing power in testimony and if the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses is enough to validate a criminals execution. It would seem the logical mind would realize, since we have nothing to gain, that we are most likely telling the truth. It may be a question of the heart and what it takes each individual to become circumcised in it. It may be a question of humility. We surrendered and received. That may be a key.

@Spectrox Our heads get filled with so much noise and propaganda that we can loose track of our hearts worse yet. We may have become traumatized, disappointed, neglected and broken so badly that we disregard and/or ignore the Lord tugging at our hearts. The spiritual realm is like string theory. Both are nearly impossible to prove and I've never known any on to claim that string theory proved itself to them. I heard countless people testify that God made himself real in their lives.

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

TLC209 said:

kaylagrl said:

Yes I have done this and read Strobel's book. Nothing in it convinced me.

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

Waggles said:

I'm not deliberately avoiding your post. I must have missed it amongst the dozens of other ones. I apologise. In terms of your post, I used to believe that I had a personal relationship with God via The Bible. But it's claims eventually turned out not to be true for me. It's morality was also highly dubious in places. What is your definition of evidence?

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

Waggles said:

None of what you've written is a logical counter-argument to mine. So until that happens, the points still stand. My argument is not proof, but it's a formal way of expressing what I think are holes in the Christian proposition.

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

Waggles said:

I did all of that, but ultimately it didn't work for me. I was presented with new information and reasoning and I engaged in critical thinking and some honesty. The Bible stopped making sense.

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

notuptome said:

You're wrong again. I am not being dishonest. This is just another list of assertions which you cannot substantiate.

posthuman · Aug 6, 2019

Spectrox said:

Edgar Andrews 'who made God?' is probably more your speed.

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

TLC209 said:

I sincerely hope so.

TLC209 said:

The God of the Bible (Revised Standard version). That’s what I believed anyway.

TLC209 said:

I believed what I knew and understood of The Bible. I went to church and interacted with other Christians. So I believed I was a Christian. From a Wittgensteinian point of view, if it walks like a duck and looks like a duck, then probably...

TLC209 said:

What you are implying about me is basically a No True Scotsman fallacy. If you speak to a million different Christians about their beliefs they will give you a million different versions of Christianity and perceptions of the God in their head. The Bible and Jesus is obviously the focus but I do not see how I was different from any other Christian. Please enlighten me….

TLC209 said:

This is incorrect. I did believe in Christ and Biblical claims that I knew and understood. I grew up in the Church of England where I was confirmed at aged 14. It was in 1994 that I had my conversion process. I was unhappy with my life at the time and had been talking to a Christian at work. His answers encouraged me to start reading The Bible again. That night I felt something come over me in waves. I felt very emotional and felt as though I had been forgiven. Was that the Holy Spirit, I thought? The next day I felt very different and had changed as a person. I became less self-centred and reached out to mentally and physically disabled people in my area. I would have conversations with unbelievers and this is where doubt entered my mind. They highlighted things in The Bible that they said were immoral or were contradictory. Things that I may not have read properly or forgotten about. The more diligently I read The Bible, the more suspicious I became of it. Things didn’t make sense. I prayed for God to give me answers to these problems. No answers came. But I didn’t want to let go of that feeling I felt on that night in 1994 or my new outlook on life. So I persevered for months, agonising over my dilemma, until eventually I realised that I had made a mistake. The Bible did contain immoral, sinister things and it was inconsistent. I also could no longer believe any of the outlandish miracle claims. I realised I could experience similar uplifting sensations by other means, e.g. reading other books, listening to a great piece of music, watching a fantastic film or TV programme, loving an animal or another person. Even debating with people on the internet! Looking back on it all, it was a philosophical maturation process. Anything that was good about Christianity I absorbed. Anything that was bad I rejected.

TLC209 said:

It was a vulnerable time in my life. The Christian psychological program appears to attach itself to people when they are at their lowest emotional ebb. Faith is the ultimate gullibility – believing something where there is insufficient reliable evidence. The foundations I have are in rational skepticism, humanism, situational ethics.

TLC209 said:

Extremely ready! What have you got for me?

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

posthuman said:

So God works in mysterious ways? What you've just asserted is debatable. Non-sequitur = a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.
When I was a Christian I thought of God as a parent. So by substituting in...

1. If the parent exists he desires for their child to know X.
2. If the parent exists he has the power for their child to know X.
3. If the parent exists then, given 1 & 2, the child should know X.

A good parent would want this for their children. But maybe the God of The Bible is an absent parent, who just leaves cryptic Post-it Notes on the fridge for their child, then banishes them into the back garden in the middle of winter when they get something wrong.?

And if God is independent of time and knows all events past, present and future, why has he implied in his book that life on Earth started less than 10,000 years ago when the overwhelming scientific evidence suggests it's hundreds of millions of years?

FollowHisSteps · Aug 6, 2019

Spectrox said:

I started with a simple premise, until I know Jesus is lying, I will accept what He says.
I liked Jesus's propositions and His criticism of the religious people he found in Jerusalem.

Contradictions are problems if they are significant, but not if in context they are reflections of
different aspects of the truth.

A classic in christian thought is no one has seen God.

46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
John 6

Now in one regard this is not true.
Isaiah saw God. John saw God. Moses saw God.

5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
Isa 6

2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne.
Rev 4

20 The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up
Exodus 19

Jesus is talking about knowing God intimately and dwelling with Him in heaven, not fleeting
visions or occasional conversations.

And this is what makes things more complicated, subtle nuances and emphasises which are there
to make us think, to delve deeper, to wonder and to explore.

Quantum physics and relativity show boundaries do not actually exist, they are points of change,
but they are neither one nor the other. In our world we talk about certainty and definitive conclusions
not realising everything is a compromise, a balance of different issue upon which judgements must
be made.

So God Himself asks us to explore, to discover, to be honest and to investigate. God bless you

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

OneOfHis said:

Every claim that I deal with on a daily basis from other people, I use evidence and Socratic questioning to gauge how likely it is to be true. And yet for the ultimate truth, the most important truth, I'm just supposed to accept on faith? I find this absurd. Does God not understand the importance of evaluation of evidence to get to the truth? Trust (100% reliance on something) needs to be earned. Why trust without good reason or tangible evidence? Your method of using faith cannot tell us who is more correct between a Christian, a Jewish person or a Muslim. Therefore it is unreliable.

FollowHisSteps · Aug 6, 2019

Spectrox said:

We do not know why God implies anything.
We can propose God has given us a picture of origins, of foundations, of principles of existence
that will help us. Describing things outside our reference points is not helpful.

And unfortunately scripture still might be true, while our perceptions and assumptions totally wrong.
A simple for instance is dark energy and dark matter.
In astro physics they discovered galaxies rotate as if they are massive entities, with the outer regions rotating
much slower than the inner regions like in our solar system. Turns out they are not rotating like this, which
means something else is going on, or the mass is very different. Some estimates say 95% of everything is
not visible. What would be funny, is if we find out the galaxies are just projections, and the projections were
constructed as simple spinning discs, just for the lol's.

I wonder about life and how seriously we take some things. A spider is in a room, arhhhhh, screaming, panic
the worst thing ever has taken place. Yet in conversation people will imagine the worst outcomes for total
strangers without blinking.

The focus of scripture is on love and how love works out. Odd. Love is central to intimacy, family, friends,
belonging, aspirations, success and failure. Now Jesus addresses this, which is profound, deeply profound,
and this all started in the bronze age, very odd.

FollowHisSteps · Aug 6, 2019

Spectrox said:

Faith is not a good basis upon which to make decisions.
In all things we do have to choose our foundations, and then see if the resulting conclusions match
the experiential world, which means we must be close to the truth.

It is one reason why I love Jesus, the deeper I walk the more truth and reality becomes clearer.

Spectrox · Aug 6, 2019

PennEd said:

Look, you're at it again! Completely closed off! Stop telling me what's in my head! You really have no idea!

Btw, the capitalisation of words does not support your argument.

And the Biblical prophecy claims are easy to debunk. Do you think authors of the New Testament never read the Old Testament scriptures? It's like that character from South Park. "Thank you Captain Hindsight!"

My questions to various people are here:

If you had been raised in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

What do you believe and why do you believe it?

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