What do you believe and why do you believe it?

[Spectrox]

Humm I noticed you blew right past my post. Was that on purpose? Just wondering.

Which post was that? Sorry. It's been a bit hectic on here! I must have missed it.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

A statistical proof of creation

Take a psalm, Psalm 119, written a piece of paper. What is the probability of it coming into
existence by chance. It turns out this is bigger than the size of the universe along with its age.

Now take life which cannot exist without 500,000 base pairs working together.
This is a book 1,000's of pages long.

Without a creator this is impossible.

The difficulty we have with a creator is cynicism and pain. Can we cope with an unjust, cruel,
sadistic God who just plays games with us as a kind of joke. Is our only defence rebellion to the
end? Or is God something else entirely and the puzzle of life the biggest challenge we face, an
eternal opportunity for something brilliant, for those who find it?

 

[Spectrox]

Faith is not a good basis upon which to make decisions.
In all things we do have to choose our foundations, and then see if the resulting conclusions match
the experiential world, which means we must be close to the truth.

It is one reason why I love Jesus, the deeper I walk the more truth and reality becomes clearer.

This is my favourite post so far! Thanks for this. It's an honest, helpful answer unlike many of the other posts I have received which are accusatory and judgemental.

I did choose my foundation in 1994 but it ended up not being correct after testing...

 

[FollowHisSteps]

This is my favourite post so far! Thanks for this. It's an honest, helpful answer unlike many of the other posts I have received which are accusatory and judgemental.

I did choose my foundation in 1994 but it ended up not being correct after testing...

What was your premise? And what is your life problem you are trying to solve?

 

[Spectrox]

Sure. And I could tell you about it ... but you would come up with some reasoning as to why the "conversation" never took place.

Not necessarily. If it's not too personal I would like to hear such a transcript between yourself and God. I think anyone would. I won't be harsh, I promise. I'm interested.

 

[Spectrox]

If we are talking slavery that happened in the south before the civil war, yes that was immoral. There is slavery today, much of it in Muslim countries. Is it still immoral? As far as genocide, to what are you referring?

Is it ever moral to own another human being as property?

Is it ever moral to support genocide?

Please answer the above first and then I'll reveal what I'm referring to.

 

[Spectrox]

What questions were you looking to have answered?

I found several problems with the Bible:
1. There were immoral things in it.
2. There were inconsistent things in it and sometimes outright contradictions.
3. There were unbelievable or outlandish claims in it.

I can provide examples if you want?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Is it ever moral to support genocide?

Please answer the above first and then I'll reveal what I'm referring to.

When you sit in God's seat and judge God, you have made the first mistake.

Do you know the heart of every man? Do you know what will happen tomorrow? Do you know exactly what person x will do 20 years from now?

We are judged not according to mankind's definition of right and wrong from mankind's perspective, but God's definition from God's perspective.

God isn't evil... man is. Man especially is when from his perspective he thinks himself moral enough from his unsaved state to judge God.

 

[Spectrox]

Ultimately no one can "give" you what you're asking for, someone can't be given truth, they have to seek it for themselves. I have to tell you that for me personally, and this isn't "proof" to or for you, but this is what convinced me. To set the tone real quick, I wasn't raised in a Christian home at all, I was a product of the public school system, and a broken home. Not bad by any means, and was well taken care of and loved, but just not in truth, not in Christ. So I didn't come with any baggage from indoctrination or anything like that. As a younger man I would have told you "All religion was man made by the power elite to control the dumb masses.", and would have proclaimed this as known truth, with certainty. I was my most certain at my most ignorant, but as I got older and my first son was born my heart softened to Jesus a little. During this time I was more like "I like the idea of Jesus, but I got bills to pay in the real world. I repeated the prayer, was even dunked under water for good measure, but that's all it was, superficial.

Along comes life, another son, addiction, work, life, school all these things as the years go by, then help for the addiction to pain pills that lead to actual prosperity. As a matter of fact on Oct. 25, 2011 while I was walking down the stairs I reflected on how awesome life was, my thoughts where something like "I just paid off both credit cards, I have money in the bank, am leaving my awesome job to hop on my motorcycle with my long "viking braid", hanging down my back, going home to my beautiful wife, who's making my favorite dinner, and my two awesome sons. "I" got life whooped, look at what "I" did." That's all I can remember be cause I never made it the 3 miles home that day and woke up 19 days later in a hospital with no function at all in my right arm. This was the beginning of me coming to truth and seeing how great I (my way) truly was.

Without making this too long I went 2 solid years wishing I was dead. As my situation kept unfolding I was just in a nosedive. First blow was that they couldn't "fix" my injury. I just had a dead arm hanging from me now, forever, and of course it was the dominate arm. Then I was not going to be compensated for it, that was my hope, and was misplaced hope because the girl that pulled out in fount of me, whose SUV I flipped hitting it T bone at about 50mph, well she had insurance and it carried 10k bodily insurance max, and I got every bit of it. Yay! Only I have 750k in medical bills who has a right to that move before I do. So that. Then the car I really love, it was a silver 07 Nissan Altima, $600 from being paid off, guy comes out of Lowes, all the way across right into my wife who was driving it and totaled out, as in the damage was less than the "totaled" amount, but close enough to call it. Just one thing after another to the point that for two solid years I could go 5 minutes without contemplating suicide. I would run down my list of justification, "My wife can find someone to love and take care of her, my job can replace me, my dad will get over it (a lie, it would have killed him), until I got to my boys, I knew no one would love them like their father, and nobody would work as hard for their good ass I would. So I was stuck.

2 years of this, every 5 minutes, every day, and I had "0" power to change any of it, and was stuck, powerless, hopeless, and broken. That is until Sept. 28th 2013 (I was 33), and I was at home alone like I never was, but it all came to a head that day. I hit my knees broken and cried out, but not what you think because at this point if I had ever believed in God, I didn't now. I tried being a "Christian" and it didn't help at all. When I hit my knees I cried out "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I QUIT!!! Then picked my tear soaked, sobbing, heap of brokenness and went to bed. The next day I woke up new, and I didn't realize until lunch "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!", and it was right then and there I knew whatever happen it was God, and that Jesus the Christ was His Son.

I wasn't sharing this simply for my story in truth to change you or convince you of anything at all, even though I pray God does, but you asked "why" I believe, and I have to tell you because I KNOW Jesus, and understand the my love for Him is beyond you understanding outside of Him. See when we bow down in front and give Him everything, He actually does something real, paradigm shifting, and powerful. He actual resurrects your dead spirit and reconciles us to Him, as we were created to be. This is why I believe and this is a custom story for each one of us, and I pray that my testimony of His power, kingship, and goodness, that this comment is part of your "custom story" of how God drew you to Himself. He is real, He is alive, and is King!!!

Thank you for sharing such a powerful testimony. I found it very moving and am glad you feel better and that life has meaning for you. Take care!

 

[Spectrox]

Edgar Andrews 'who made God?' is probably more your speed.


View attachment 202234

Thanks for this. I may give it a read.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I found several problems with the Bible:
1. There were immoral things in it.
2. There were inconsistent things in it and sometimes outright contradictions.
3. There were unbelievable or outlandish claims in it.

I can provide examples if you want?

Which ones are you refering to?
Scripture is very strange because most of the claims are very ordinary, and not that fantastical.
Some defy our perception of reality. But then again what is reality and why am I living at this
time of unbelievable wealth and prosperity and knowledge?

I wonder if you are just here to provoke or to actually engage in where you are?
I met a guy who actually believed Jesus was true, but just was not prepared to pay the price.

Sometime poking the church is an interesting pursuit, just to see what happens.
There are some seriously blessed and gifted people here, but sometimes we discover what
people truly are after. God has a way of making this plain. God bless you

 

[Spectrox]

I started with a simple premise, until I know Jesus is lying, I will accept what He says.
I liked Jesus's propositions and His criticism of the religious people he found in Jerusalem.

Contradictions are problems if they are significant, but not if in context they are reflections of
different aspects of the truth.

A classic in christian thought is no one has seen God.

46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
John 6

Now in one regard this is not true.
Isaiah saw God. John saw God. Moses saw God.

5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
Isa 6

2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne.
Rev 4

20 The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up
Exodus 19

Jesus is talking about knowing God intimately and dwelling with Him in heaven, not fleeting
visions or occasional conversations.

And this is what makes things more complicated, subtle nuances and emphasises which are there
to make us think, to delve deeper, to wonder and to explore.

Quantum physics and relativity show boundaries do not actually exist, they are points of change,
but they are neither one nor the other. In our world we talk about certainty and definitive conclusions
not realising everything is a compromise, a balance of different issue upon which judgements must
be made.

So God Himself asks us to explore, to discover, to be honest and to investigate. God bless you

Another thoughtful post! Thanks again! I accept your blessing in the spirit it is given.

 

[Spectrox]

Which ones are you refering to?

I found several problems with the Bible:
1. There were immoral things in it - e.g. slavery and genocide supported by God. Homophobia and sexism. I think the concept of an eternal Hell is unjust and immoral for the "thought crime" of disbelief.
2. There were inconsistent things in it and sometimes outright contradictions - the differing accounts of the death of Judas in Matthew 27 and Acts 1.
The 4 differing accounts of the resurrection - I couldn't honestly put all the information contained within them and make a sensible narrative. Different women present. Different numbers of angels/men in white garments. An Earthquake in Matthew but not reported in the others!
The difference between Yahweh and Jesus in the OT and NT is fairly stark. God is supposed to be unchanging and yet Jesus changes things.
3. There were unbelievable or outlandish claims in it - the miracles, Noah's Ark, a talking donkey in Numbers 22, etc.

 

[Spectrox]

Yes, I believe that I hold the standard, as revealed in the Bible.

Regarding slavery and genocide, you're cherry picking to justify your rejection of God. I'm not going to support your rebellion.

Cherry-picking? Seriously!? Perhaps we should just gloss over God-condoned slavery and genocide in the Old Testament?
Nothing to see here. Move along now. These aren't the droids you're looking for.

 

[Spectrox]

We do not know why God implies anything.
We can propose God has given us a picture of origins, of foundations, of principles of existence
that will help us. Describing things outside our reference points is not helpful.

And unfortunately scripture still might be true, while our perceptions and assumptions totally wrong.
A simple for instance is dark energy and dark matter.
In astro physics they discovered galaxies rotate as if they are massive entities, with the outer regions rotating
much slower than the inner regions like in our solar system. Turns out they are not rotating like this, which
means something else is going on, or the mass is very different. Some estimates say 95% of everything is
not visible. What would be funny, is if we find out the galaxies are just projections, and the projections were
constructed as simple spinning discs, just for the lol's.

I wonder about life and how seriously we take some things. A spider is in a room, arhhhhh, screaming, panic
the worst thing ever has taken place. Yet in conversation people will imagine the worst outcomes for total
strangers without blinking.

The focus of scripture is on love and how love works out. Odd. Love is central to intimacy, family, friends,
belonging, aspirations, success and failure. Now Jesus addresses this, which is profound, deeply profound,
and this all started in the bronze age, very odd.

I agree there is much to admire about some of Jesus' teachings. It's what attracted me in the first place. Although modern humans have been around for 100,000 years or more, so it's not surprising that having a sense of community and morality was important. Jesus (if he existed) certainly made a contribution to the moral debate.

 

[Spectrox]

But then again what is reality and why am I living at this time of unbelievable wealth and prosperity and knowledge?

Reality is the way the Universe works, I suppose. It's best measured using a scientific methodology, and using logic and reasoned argument. For me, truth is reality accurately described using language.

I wonder if you are just here to provoke or to actually engage in where you are?

I am here to engage, although my presence here and the questions I pose will be seen as a provocation by some. If a Christian says something that I think is willfully ignorant, dishonest or morally bankrupt, then I will call it out. I have debated on other Christian websites, such as Theologyonline, and I gained some really good philosophical insights.

I met a guy who actually believed Jesus was true, but just was not prepared to pay the price.

I don't believe the Bible is a true account. There will be some truth in it for sure but I think it's convoluted and deeply flawed as a manual for life.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I found several problems with the Bible:
1. There were immoral things in it - e.g. slavery and genocide supported by God. Homophobia and sexism. I think the concept of an eternal Hell is unjust and immoral for the "thought crime" of disbelief.
2. There were inconsistent things in it and sometimes outright contradictions - the differing accounts of the death of Judas in Matthew 27 and Acts 1.
The 4 differing accounts of the resurrection - I couldn't honestly put all the information contained within them and make a sensible narrative. Different women present. Different numbers of angels/men in white garments. An Earthquake in Matthew but not reported in the others!
The difference between Yahweh and Jesus in the OT and NT is fairly stark. God is supposed to be unchanging and yet Jesus changes things.
3. There were unbelievable or outlandish claims in it - the miracles, Noah's Ark, a talking donkey in Numbers 22, etc.

This is a good summary. I face the same issues, yet I have faith in Jesus.
Slavery - a solution to starvation and genocide.
Genocide - a community so corrupted and disease ridden the only solution is elimination
Homosexuality - sex is to produce kids and faithfulness to protect from disease. Homosexuality is sexual behaviour for
gratification alone, and very vulnerable to std's.
Sexism - womens role in child birth and looking after kids is a full time commitment.
Farming, hunting going to war is a full time commitment. This is not sexism, this is reality of our roles.
Hell - a place where God is not, which is outside creation. Reject God, reject existence.
God is everything, its focus, its direction, its essence. If one is at war with who one is, this is just self destruction.

Testimonies are always inconsistent. But the writers wrote down what they were told.
The truth is the incidents, not the details precisely but how people are reacting to the relationships involved.
Scripture is a book of perceptions and interactions, both historical, metaphorical and allegorical.
The fact it demonstrates this underlines its authenticity, rather than denies it.

Yahweh is justice and righteousness in action, Jesus is friendship and intimacy in action.
Both exist in harmony, you cannot approach God without both. Jesus opens the door to
the intimate in God, heaven come to earth in the believer, which was not possible until
He had come and died upon the cross.

Claims of miracles are nothing, they are testimonies of what took place, in historical time, eye witnesses.
Noahs ark is pre-history, which is a story written by God. As such He has His reasons. I just praise Him for
declaring the overview.

What all of this entails is mystery. And I know in my life I live in mystery. So if I accept Jesus is God, and
He rose from the dead, transforming fearful fishermen into men and women of God, I am prepared to accept
the rest suspending my disbelief. The beauty is, this is history, and what affects me is tomorrow and how
I view it. With Jesus I know the next step, and I praise Him for this. Amen

 

[Spectrox]

A statistical proof of creation

Take a psalm, Psalm 119, written a piece of paper. What is the probability of it coming into
existence by chance. It turns out this is bigger than the size of the universe along with its age.

Now take life which cannot exist without 500,000 base pairs working together.
This is a book 1,000's of pages long.

Without a creator this is impossible.

The difficulty we have with a creator is cynicism and pain. Can we cope with an unjust, cruel,
sadistic God who just plays games with us as a kind of joke. Is our only defence rebellion to the
end? Or is God something else entirely and the puzzle of life the biggest challenge we face, an
eternal opportunity for something brilliant, for those who find it?

I understand what you're saying. Although there are 10^11 stars in our galaxy and a further 10^11 galaxies in the observable Universe. So maybe it's not so unlikely. We could be the only life in the Universe. With Donald Trump in charge of it (now there's a horrifying thought!).

Paul Davies, a christian sympathiser, wrote a book along these lines and he concluded that there was a 50:50 chance that a creator God existed! Sometimes it's best to just say "I don't know."

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Reality is the way the Universe works, I suppose. It's best measured using a scientific methodology, and using logic and reasoned argument. For me, truth is reality accurately described using language.

I am here to engage, although my presence here and the questions I pose will be seen as a provocation by some. If a Christian says something that I think is willfully ignorant, dishonest or morally bankrupt, then I will call it out. I have debated on other Christian websites, such as Theologyonline, and I gained some really good philosophical insights.

I don't believe the Bible is a true account. There will be some truth in it for sure but I think it's convoluted and deeply flawed as a manual for life.

I don't believe the Bible is a true account.

I find this statement interesting. The bible is many accounts, from many different people, with many different
perspectives. What history has shown is none of the testimonies are invented, but embedded in the times they
speak of. And that changes things. The messages maybe wrong but there setting are valid.

The real problem is the bible is so vast only those who believe can put the effort in.
And the outcomes, the working out of the balances, even when the authority is accepted is equally difficult and
complex. So the bible is this vast question, that questions the reader as must as the reader questions it.

I see the bible as the reflection of Gods heart, which is infinitely vast, so if we are to take on such a thing the
price has to be paid. Without paying the price the answers cannot be found.

Jesus said it in these terms. Unless we become like children we can never enter the Kingdom of heaven.
And that is the barrier to the riches held in God and His book. Yes there are problems, challenges, perspectives,
but without Him in our hearts all will be opaque. God bless you.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

What is personal?

For me the challenge of emotional balance of life was a life long question.
Get it wrong, and you kids will be wrecks. Get it right, and they will be founded in life and love
and have the best opportunities life can offer them.

Jesus opened that door and showed me through my questioning and adventures what is the
foundations of who we are and how we perceive our lives. It is the cross that sets us free, knowing
we are loved and secure is true liberation, which unlocked the apostles and can unlock us just as
much. How could seeing the cross bring us life?

Answer that and the start of the Kingdom begins.