What do you believe and why do you believe it?

[Spectrox]

I understand exactly where you're coming from, and I have to say I'm am truly impressed by people like you that are actively seeking truth where ever it leads. I've met a few since I was born again (the last almost 6 years now), and I am grateful for it.

Well, this is the best compliment I've had all year!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

This is the most depressing

This is the most depressingly awful post I've read so far on this site. Do you not value health and happiness for yourself and others at all, even if they may be fleeting? If you try to live in the moment a bit, like a child, you may find joy in life. Provided their basic physical and emotional needs are met, children are happy. Much happier than adults actually. Having said that, I wouldn't leave children alone with a box of matches, so adult heads are needed. But I think adults have lost something. Politics and poor economic systems producing stress is part of the reason. Also I think religion has introduced a drop of poison into the world and has given false hope of an afterlife which can never be demonstrated. Religion has continually told people that they are sick (have sin) and that only religion has the cure (have faith). Christianity is the greatest story ever sold. Just for clarification I am not discounting the possibility of an afterlife. But there is no reliable evidence for one so I believe this is the only life I'm going to get. If it turns out that there is an afterlife, and it's a better, higher plane of existence than this one, then it's a bonus. But your belief in an afterlife and my lack of belief in one, does not alter the fact of whether there is one or not.

It appears you are a materialist, ie life now defines our existence and there are no other valid reference points.
Superficially this appears a cynical but reasonable proposition if you are fed, watered, safe, happy and content.
Unfortunately using reductionist logic, one ends up with nihilism which destroys value unless it has a purpose,
which evaporates with uncertainty.

The real problem is we define ourselves by our family, friendship and social bonds. Once these fall apart, we
have very little. And this is where Jesus walks, giving us reference points and linking us to the family of God.

And sin is very real, because it has its foundations on breaking the relationship bonds and causing harm.
Religion never invented this problem, it sort to resolve it with ultimate significance.

Evidence for God, is Jesus and Israel. And for our need, is our hearts.

 

[Spectrox]

Thank you for your answers. I understand then. Sorry for mis-assuming. This is all via text so it is bit harder to figure out without dialoge.

The thing that interests me the most was your experience which you claim is the Holy Spirit. The fact that you acknowledge that it probably was, also makes me guess that it was. Because you felt changed. And that is actually what the Holy Spirit does.

The fact that you are here tells me God brought you here. All is by design. There are no coincedences in life and God is a soverign God. Meaning He uses even the bad, and works all things for His good. For His glory.

It wouldnt surprise me that, the journey you went on in unbelief and doubt, was all intentional and lead by God. You see Gods ways are much higher than our ways. He made us, I think you can agree humans have no such power or way to do such a miracle as creating life in human form or any other form. FROM SCRATCH. (Im not referring to cloning or hybriding.) So the way God operates we are not able to even comprehend. Our brains do not have that capacity.

Your story began with not being happy. Were you depressed at the time? Suicidal? Can you share what you were going through?

You described it as a time when someone is vulnerable. So I imagine it was not an easy time. But you experienced the supernatural. You refer to as the Holy Spirit. And I believe you are correct. This even changed you. You cannot be unchanged at this point. You are back to find answers because that event cannot be duplicated although you have tried.

But theres more. You were a baby in Christ in your conversion. You needed milk from the Word. You needed a pastor and brothers to guide you in your walk with God. Instead unbelief and ungodly people aborted you... and im sure that has been a nasty adventure in itself. Because the world has nothing good to offer.

But God is a forgiving God and has His arms wide open ready to recieve you.. are you really ready to put down all your arguing and rejection of your Father?

Thank you for this thoughtful post. I wasn't suicidal at the time of my conversion but I was very unhappy with my own life. I didn't see any point to life. I didn't particularly like myself. I would look into the mirror and think to myself "You're not a particularly good person are you?" I felt that life had to have a purpose. That there had to be ultimate justice. I wanted to become a moral person with values, a family, a community to belong to that was a force for good. I believed Christianity was it.

I do not feel like that any more, although I try to be moral and think I'm basically a good, caring person. From my challenges to other people's comments on this thread, you will probably get a flavour of the problems I have with Christianity and the Bible - mostly about morality. I don't see those problems going away any time soon. But who knows, they might!

 

[Spectrox]

This is a good summary. I face the same issues, yet I have faith in Jesus.

Having read your replies I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Slavery - a solution to starvation and genocide.

It’s God’s chosen reality, surely? He didn’t have to make the world like this. Evolution paints a different picture to the Garden of Eden story. For me, the only moral answer that one can give to the question “Is it ever moral to own another human being as property?” is a firm “No!”

Genocide - a community so corrupted and disease ridden the only solution is elimination

What about the women who Moses’ army took as their unwilling wives in Numbers 31? What’s described is basically War Crime:

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”

For me, the only moral answer that one can give to the question “Is it ever moral to commit genocide?” is a firm “No!” I suppose the Commandment “Thou shalt not kill” only applies to Jewish people? Or Midianite virgins? I find it indefensible.

Homosexuality - sex is to produce kids and faithfulness to protect from disease.

I assume here you mean “heterosexuality”? I personally don’t think sexual intercourse is just about producing children. Do you not accept that there is a pleasure element to sex, which all mammals experience? Without it, mammalian life would not have evolved on this planet. Do you believe in contraception or not? What if a man is “firing blanks” - are they not allowed to have sex just in case they enjoy it?

Homosexuality is sexual behaviour for
gratification alone, and very vulnerable to std's.

As long as it’s consenting I don’t have a problem with a bit of gratification. If you had a child who was gay, how would you handle that? I have seen so much damage done to young people who have come out as gay in unaccepting households.

Sexism - womens role in child birth and looking after kids is a full time commitment.

What about the man’s role? This is very old-fashioned. Tradition is basically just peer pressure from dead people.

Farming, hunting going to war is a full time commitment. This is not sexism, this is reality of our roles.

In the past, maybe, but not now. And we should avoid going to war at all costs.

Hell - a place where God is not, which is outside creation. Reject God, reject existence.

God is everything, its focus, its direction, its essence. If one is at war with who one is, this is just self destruction.

If that’s true, and a Christian ends up in Heaven, but people or animals they have loved are not there (because they are in Hell), how could it be Heaven for them? God would have to completely change their personality, identity and memory in order for it to work and at that moment they would cease to be who they were.

Testimonies are always inconsistent. But the writers wrote down what they were told.
The truth is the incidents, not the details precisely but how people are reacting to the relationships involved.
Scripture is a book of perceptions and interactions, both historical, metaphorical and allegorical.
The fact it demonstrates this underlines its authenticity, rather than denies it.

Are you saying that God cannot look after his own book? That’s easy for him surely?

Yahweh is justice and righteousness in action, Jesus is friendship and intimacy in action.


Both exist in harmony, you cannot approach God without both. Jesus opens the door to


the intimate in God, heaven come to earth in the believer, which was not possible until


He had come and died upon the cross.

They read like different Gods to me. Although they both have a degree of brutality. Yahweh is more physically brutal, and Jesus could be psychologically brutal in what he was saying. Some of this arguably inspired The Spanish Inquisition, which was an appalling moment in history.

Claims of miracles are nothing, they are testimonies of what took place, in historical time, eye witnesses.


Noahs ark is pre-history, which is a story written by God. As such He has His reasons. I just praise Him for


declaring the overview.

It seems like an unlikely event. There’s no scientific evidence of a global flood.

What all of this entails is mystery. And I know in my life I live in mystery. So if I accept Jesus is God, and


He rose from the dead, transforming fearful fishermen into men and women of God, I am prepared to accept


the rest suspending my disbelief. The beauty is, this is history, and what affects me is tomorrow and how


I view it. With Jesus I know the next step, and I praise Him for this. Amen

We were getting on so well. But I disagree with a lot of what you’ve written here. Thanks for taking the time to respond though. More poetry please and less apologetics!

 

[Spectrox]

I experienced a full-fledged miracle that is literally impossible to be explained in any other way other than that it was the hand of God upon me. It’s a long story that I will share with you if you will read it with an open heart.

Please do. I promise not to be harsh with you, although I may not accept your evidence or rationale.

 

[Leastamongmany]

Do some study. Studying is the way to learn about God. It's an amazing book. It is shallow enough a child can wade in, yet so deep it can completely submerge an elephant. From 100,000 foot view it is divided into two parts. The story of a nation, and the story of a Man. The logic of prophecy goes along two different lines. Prophecy in Greek logic is prediction and fulfillment. Hebrew philosophy is pattern. You can spend years contrasting those two and you will find them very consistent. For study, I prefer NASB version, but keep a KJV on hand. When I want to inspect a verse more closely, I use the KJV verbage to find the translated word in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Things can become more clear. Of course there are probably apps for your phone that are much more convenient tools, I'm just a bit challenged with them. Then I like to use the NLT when I am simply reading for the enjoyment of the story. You can study passages for doctrinal clarity, or you can study a passage that simply speaks to you. You can study with this in mind. (again just one way to approach). Exegesis - what did the author "SAY". That is the purpose for having Strong's book. What were the specific words the author was using, and the meaning of those words. Then begin the process of hermeneutics, to decide what the author "MEANT". Once you get those clear, read the passage 20 or 30 times. You will be amazed at the clarity you achieve. That would be assimilation. I am not a teacher, so take all this with as much salt as you can tolerate. Before you begin, read Acts 17:11. Those referred to are blessed because they did not take things at face value. They studied and questioned to see if those things were so. Once you begin learning about God, remember...the greatest commandment was not to know the most about God, but to love Him with all your heart, soul, and mind. Devotion, I think, (once again, just me) trumps knowledge. Read Jesus' epistle to Ephesus in Revelation 2 and see if you come to the same conclusion. You said you asked for knowledge. But you don't receive when you ask without faith. I think I realize this is your dilemma. You are seeking faith. So learn about God. Something I found quite interesting that changed significantly the way I looked at things in the Old Testament was book called "The Epic of Eden". It puts a lot (like covenants) into historical perspective. One suggestion would be to start with Revelation. One of Stephen Covey's principals was "start with the end in mind". But more importantly, Rev 1:3 gives a blessing for reading that book. No other book explicitly blesses the reader for doing so. Sorry to be so long, and perhaps so wrong. But bless you for looking.

Welcone to cc,blessings on your journey here!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Humm I noticed you blew right past my post. Was that on purpose? Just wondering.

He blew right past mine also. A few before yours. Lol.

 

[Spectrox]

Immoral according to who?

You may have read some of my responses already about situational ethics and maximising wellbeing and minimising harm? That is the standard upon which I judge moral claims.

Such as?

There were inconsistent things in it and sometimes outright contradictions - the differing accounts of the death of Judas in Matthew 27 and Acts 1.

The 4 differing accounts of the resurrection - I couldn't honestly put all the information contained within them and make a sensible narrative. Different women present. Different numbers of angels/men in white garments. An Earthquake in Matthew but not reported in the others!

The difference between Yahweh and Jesus in the OT and NT is fairly stark. God is supposed to be unchanging and yet Jesus changes things. They come across as different Gods.

And you came to this knowledge after the unbelievable or outlandish claim that Jesus rose from the dead?

I was young and naive at the time but I accepted these claims as I was growing up in the Church of England. I no longer believe them because I have grown up a bit since then and need better evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Spectrox]

We both know better. Your argument is against God not me. God cannot lie nor does He lead men into error. You are simply engaged in self delusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And you can demonstrate that how exactly?

 

[Spectrox]

Yes, cherry-picking.

How are you going to deal with YOUR sin? Answer that, and then we'll discuss the fruit.

Any "sins" I may have committed in the past, nowhere near measure up to the wholesale evil of God in the Old Testament. I have never supported slavery and I haven't committed genocide all week.

 

[Spectrox]

He blew right past mine also. A few before yours. Lol.

Sorry. Which post was it and I'll attempt to address it. I've had a lot of posts to respond to. I may be smart but I'm not all-seeing.

 

[OneOfHis]

You may have read some of my responses already about situational ethics and maximising wellbeing and minimising harm? That is the standard upon which I judge moral claims.

You are far from perfect morally and do not know all things and how some events change others.

There were inconsistent things in it and sometimes outright contradictions - the differing accounts of the death of Judas in Matthew 27 and Acts 1.

Wrong.
acts
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
______
matthew
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

-cast his silver at the temple to purchase the field where he hanged himself, when he fell his bowels gushed out.

The 4 differing accounts of the resurrection - I couldn't honestly put all the information contained within them and make a sensible narrative. Different women present. Different numbers of angels/men in white garments. An Earthquake in Matthew but not reported in the others!
The difference between Yahweh and Jesus in the OT and NT is fairly stark. God is supposed to be unchanging and yet Jesus changes things. They come across as different Gods.
I was young and naive at the time but I accepted these claims as I was growing up in the Church of England. I no longer believe them because I have grown up a bit since then and need better evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

These are just words and opinions.... nothing to debunk here other than you thinking different perspectives means error?

 

[OneOfHis]

Any "sins" I may have committed in the past, nowhere near measure up to the wholesale evil of God in the Old Testament. I have never supported slavery and I haven't committed genocide all week.

Nah even your thoughts on your best day are far more evil than anything God has ever done. You just don't understand what good means yet.

The creator defines morality and you don't understand why He works how He works.

 

[posthuman]

This is the most depressing

This is the most depressingly awful post I've read so far on this site. Do you not value health and happiness for yourself and others at all, even if they may be fleeting? If you try to live in the moment a bit, like a child, you may find joy in life. Provided their basic physical and emotional needs are met, children are happy. Much happier than adults actually. Having said that, I wouldn't leave children alone with a box of matches, so adult heads are needed. But I think adults have lost something. Politics and poor economic systems producing stress is part of the reason. Also I think religion has introduced a drop of poison into the world and has given false hope of an afterlife which can never be demonstrated. Religion has continually told people that they are sick (have sin) and that only religion has the cure (have faith). Christianity is the greatest story ever sold. Just for clarification I am not discounting the possibility of an afterlife. But there is no reliable evidence for one so I believe this is the only life I'm going to get. If it turns out that there is an afterlife, and it's a better, higher plane of existence than this one, then it's a bonus. But your belief in an afterlife and my lack of belief in one, does not alter the fact of whether there is one or not.

my definition of life - the Bible's definition of life - is not the animation of the corporeal flesh. my definition of existence - the Bible's definition of existence - is not equivalent to life. you can exist in death, or exist in life, but my existence originates and is upheld by God, who remembers and observes me.

so you should understand, i am speaking from a profoundly different perspective than the one your thinking is stuck within.

the animation of the fleshly body, which you call 'life' is incredibly fleeting. the body begins to die almost immediately upon birth. your 'life' is in fact a process of death. you may find it "depressingly awful" to take such an honest view of the reality you believe in -- of course you would -- but the statement that 'good health is nothing more than a relatively slow rate of dying' is 100% accurate.

existence and life are not the same thing, but the perspective you have bought is that they are. so your 'life' is no more than a handful of decades of dying, and your 'existence' is only a handful of decades of the illusion of existing -- because you believe you cease to exist as soon as that process of death that you call 'life' completes. your 'life' is a slurry of chemicals and electrical waves convincing your body that it has a consciousness and urging it to keep itself alive long enough to reproduce another slurry of chemicals and electrical waves that also is deceived, for a few decades, into believing it has consciousness. but all the while, it is nothing: it is not life but an illusion of life, not consciousness but an illusion of consciousness, not existence but an illusion of existence, and certainly not reason or logic but madness - a procreation-driven, highly mutated algal body staving off insanity through endorphins and the trickery of an illusion of logic.

that's your paradigm. not mine.

you believe you were randomly evolved through natural selection? under the pressure of need to survive long enough to reproduce? that this is what our brain is a product of?
then that includes your brain, and your thought processes, and the things you call 'happiness' -- what you call 'reason and logic' are chemical illusions whose evolutionary purpose are to prevent your brain from ceasing to be able to carry out its primary purpose: to feed the body, to keep it from harm long enough to compete with other males for women to procreate with. that's the only thing the illusion of consciousness that you call 'thought' is for, and that's the only thing the illusion of intelligence and truth you call 'reason and logic' is for -- there is no reason for you to trust that anything your brain tells you is accurate. that is not the purpose of the illusion you call 'mind' -- its purpose is to keep you functioning long enough to put a baby into a female.

but there is some kind of pressure on this deception you call consciousness, bothering you about the existence of God.
a lot of the illusion of what you call thought has been spent on it.
you wound up here, where there are a lot of puddles of mud and electro-chemical slurries who supposedly know God, who exist eternally, who have something that is actual life and a happiness and peace that are actually more than endorphin balance.

the deception you call consciousness is fighting your brain, because it wants you to spend your chemical energy, so woefully limited in time and space, on the needs of that temporary pile of mud and electro-chemical puddles that you call "life" -- keep propping up your ego, telling yourself you "understand for realz"

"depressingly awful" you say?
yeah, your worldview is pretty terrible. i agree.
and i agree that to live with such a worldview and be afraid to embrace the reality of the implications of it is pretty awful too.

in your worldview, you don't exist at all. you don't live at all. all your thoughts are insanity, temporarily placating an organic lump of goo just long enough to make a few secretions and turn back into dust -- the dust that it always was, and the dust it always will be, nothing more.

and what's really rubbish? you think you came here to 'liberate' us -- people who have actual life and actual existence -- by convincing us we don't exist either, and that we should peacefully accept your goo-deception.



it's hard to believe you actually buy into such rot, and moreso, that you find it desirable, preferable, and even ((??)) virtuous. but i guess, none of your atheist books or buddies ever presented it to you so honestly.

 

[PennEd]

I agree with you that the starting point for morality is arbitrary but "maximising people's emotional and physical wellbeing" is a standard in of itself and it can be measured by the Social Sciences. There is an optimum wellbeing that can be reached. I think people know this deep down. The assumptions are that pleasure is preferable to pain, health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death, freedom is preferable to incarceration, etc. Do you think these are good assumptions for a thriving, healthy, co-operative society for our children to grow up in?
You believe you have THE MORAL STANDARD but how did you decide that was the right one? More importantly, do you consider slavery and genocide to be moral or not?

I do not need, and cannot, explain God to someone who is not only Spiritually dead, but doesn't even believe He exists!

What is the point of discussing your wrong understanding of God....... UNLESS you KNOW He exists!? Which of course you do. You think your morality is somehow superior to the Being that created all things, INCLUDING you.

The problem isn't that you don't believe God exists, the problem is you hate Him, and Jesus tells us by extension us as well.

Why would you care how an "imaginary" God conducts Himself? How could there be genocides, like a Flood that destroyed all life, from a Being that doesn't exist?

You continue to be here. It may be by Divine appointment. So I will continue to deliver THE Gospel in the hope that God will quicken you to believe it:


THE Gospel unto Salvation:
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... And most importantly the sin of DEAD works, or a moral life in an attempt to EARN Salvation. He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works for HIS Glory.

 

[posthuman]

If it turns out that there is an afterlife, and it's a better, higher plane of existence than this one, then it's a bonus. But your belief in an afterlife and my lack of belief in one, does not alter the fact of whether there is one or not.

this is hilarious!

you think 'if there is a God after all' He will give you eternal life like it's a participation award?
for your unbelief? for your accusations against Him?

you hate God, you deny Him, and you figure you might get a 'bonus' of Him richly rewarding you anyway -- oh because of course you would, everyone will, because that would be the only thing that's 'fair' or 'moral' of Him to do, and if He's not the sort of God who gives everyone a trophy just for showing up, heck, even if they don't show up at all, then He must not exist. because you say so.

L

O

L



it's true though, your unbelief doesn't change reality.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry. Which post was it and I'll attempt to address it. I've had a lot of posts to respond to. I may be smart but I'm not all-seeing.

Post 86

 

[posthuman]

Thanks for this. I may give it a read.

you're welcome

i really do think you will like it. it is not a 'dumbed-down' sort of 'Christian-book-store' look into these things, and it's not an easy book to read, would give most people on this site a big headache, but i get the impression that it's the sort of meaty, rational, scientific-based argumentation you are looking for.


please excuse my directness and harshness in other posts -- it's because i respect you that i will say very hard things to you, not because i'm trying to berate you or talk down to you. i'm speaking about ideas and philosophies, not about you, as a person.

 

[Dino246]

Any "sins" I may have committed in the past, nowhere near measure up to the wholesale evil of God in the Old Testament. I have never supported slavery and I haven't committed genocide all week.

Here you demonstrate your willingness to stand in judgement of God, Who created you and Whose thoughts and ways are higher than yours. You don't think that is sin?

What did God say of the Canaanites before ordering their destruction? He said, and I'm paraphrasing, that their sin stank to high heaven.

 

[notuptome]

And you can demonstrate that how exactly?

I've been reading your posts. You continue to attack God and blame Him for the evil that rules the world.

You make yourself evil and blame God for providing a means of salvation that requires only that you believe Him and trust not in yourself.

It is not God who is whispering in your ear to defy God and to eschew righteousness. God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. Mercy in that God has sacrificed to redeem your soul from the slavery of sin.

You cannot see because you are in darkness. Your college professors have led you into darkness. You now delight in darkness. You cannot see the end is far more terrible than you can imagine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger