Faith or Law?

[Toknow]

It's not according to me, it's according to God. You believe that the Lord Jesus said "if you keep the law and do good works and I will save you", but you won't find anything like that in the bible.
You will find that we are "saved by grace, and not by works" as you suggest.

Please post where I stated that I said we are saved by works.
I don't know any Christian that believes that we are saved by works.

Isaiah 64 is a profound confession of human inability, a declaration of total depravity, and a desperate cry for sovereign, covenantal grace. The chapter is understood as a model for repentance and a plea for revival, emphasizing that salvation comes only from God's intervention, not human efforts.

What do you mean by TOTAL DEPRAVITY?
Are you reformed?


I'll post Isaiah 64:1- 5 again


1Oh, that You would rend the heavens and come down,
That the mountains might quake at Your presence—
2As fire kindles the brushwood, as fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!

3When You did awesome things which we did not expect,
You came down, the mountains quaked at Your presence.

4For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear,
Nor has the eye seen a God besides You,
Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.

5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?

6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


To whom does the writer wish that God would make Himself known?
For whom does God act?
God meets someone. Who?
What is that person doing?
why was God angry (sounds like a human trait) at some?
Why?
WHO has come to be as unclean before God?
Whose works are like filthy rags?
Are they God-fearing people?
Or are the full of iniquity?

The above are in order of the wrier's statements and should be easy to answer.
If you can answer all thsese questions...
you might have to change your theology.

Not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that "God is against good works", but I can assure you it's not true.

YOU seemed to be concerned about having the correct MOTIVE for doing good works.

I've never heard about God experiencing the human emotion of happiness in the bible. Could you please cite the chapter and verse you got that notion from.

One verse is in Isaiah 64...I pointed it out to you.

You need proof that God is happy with humans??


Ezekiel 18:13
13Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Psalm 147:10-11
10He does not delight in the strength of the horse;
He does not take pleasure in the legs of a man.

11The LORD favors those who fear Him,
Those who wait for His lovingkindness.



God is the very source of happiness.

 

[Toknow]

Tyndale translated the Greek into English during the sixteenth century.

Jerome translated the Greek into Latin in the fourth century.

In the fourth century Jerome translated the Greek 'Pistis' into 'Fides'.

The Greek 'Pistis' in Latin means 'Fides' which then translated into English means; faith, believe, trust.

Nothing has been lost to time in our translations of 'Pistis'.

The noun 'believe' has the verb form 'believing'.

The noun 'trust' has the verb form 'trusting'.

So it would seem that you DO understand that BELIEVE must be on-going.
TRUST must be on-going.

Here is an example of an erroneous understanding of the N.T.

"Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."

So it would seem that you DO believe that we are to SURRENDER to Him.

or do you?

Here is what the text actually states.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Do you see the difference?

Ah. Maybe not.

However, it is impossible to see the difference because you did not post the opposing view.
You posted only Ephesians 2:8

Where is the opposing scripture??

(I might have missed it).

 

[Sipsey]

This thread will give important information about how saving faith and faithing has been lost to time.

This is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Jay

I think that God understands who is faithing and who is not, even if they call it by another name. “Faith in action” is primarily the end product, and any good teacher can explain with analogies and examples. Belief is like an onion with many layers. At its plumbed depth, it is a full embrace of the truth as described by our Savior, and those He chose to relay His message.

 

[Watchman22]

I think that God understands who is faithing and who is not, even if they call it by another name. “Faith in action” is primarily the end product, and any good teacher can explain with analogies and examples. Belief is like an onion with many layers. At its plumbed depth, it is a full embrace of the truth as described by our Savior, and those He chose to relay His message.

I agree Sipsey,

I do think there are many paths to a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. But it would sure be nice to know exactly what response God is looking for in this day and age, wouldn't it?

Your post shows a deep understanding and discernment of faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo.
How did you come to understand this?

 

[Gideon300]

Hearing of what faith?

There is only one faith that matters. It is the faith of the Son of God. I don't know why modern translations mess with the literal. Since you are a pastor, perhaps you can explain.

 

[GWH]

I agree.
The other member stated that everything in the NT is spiritual.

Water was a metaphor (wonder what I said?) for never going thirsty if we believe in Jesus.
Thirsty...spiritual thirst. I believe I mentioned the woman at the well.

Can't remember about love,,,but of course you're right.
Love is a fruit of having the Holy Spirit dwell in us...
along with other fruit...Galatians.

Yes, love is the summary fruit, intended to embrace all godly behavior (Matt. 22:37-40, Gal. 5:6).

 

[Toknow]

Yes, love is the summary fruit, intended to embrace all godly behavior (Matt. 22:37-40, Gal. 5:6).

Right.
Love covers all the commandments.
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

Wasn't Jesus the best psychologist !
If we don't love ourselves...
we can't love others either.
AND
we will respect ourselves more...
saving us from much world-made grief.

 

[Toknow]

@studier
@Qt


I thought of something.

Jesus said He is the door...
He is the gate.

So, yes, we are entering into His place, His world, His area.
He's at the gate of that area.
He protects it.

As long as we are in that area,,,,we will be protected.

Just a thought.

 

[TruthDefender]

Some don't understand Scripture and like to change it's meaning.

The very words of Jesus are rejected for their own personal belief system.

Only the Holy Spirit can help these persons.

And some people, for the sake of following man-made doctrines, harden their hearts……

 

[studier]

@studier
@Qt


I thought of something.

Jesus said He is the door...
He is the gate.

So, yes, we are entering into His place, His world, His area.
He's at the gate of that area.
He protects it.

As long as we are in that area,,,,we will be protected.

Just a thought.

...His Kingdom, His Body, His Family, Him...

There are a lot of these types of details in the Text. You've noted the importance of a little word "IF" - the prepositions are in a sense the same - seemingly small words but making connections in some fascinating ways.

I've read about your speaking a few languages. My wife does also. We used some time on several occasions to compare translations in Greek, English, and a few European languages. It brought out some interesting findings at times.

I don't know if you've ever seen this chart - it's a pretty detailed version of tool used in early Greek training to show the basic spatial sense of the prepositions. We can see how eis is motion to and movement into. And en is being inside, in the sphere of, in union with, etc.

Literal translation as you know can be rough between languages, but in our Text it can provide some clarity to just let it say what it says and then adjust our thinking to it as best we can. This is where I start.

I do agree with you that we can get a lot from English and also other languages. We can also get into a lot of nonsense in any of them.

 

[Toknow]

...His Kingdom, His Body, His Family, Him...

There are a lot of these types of details in the Text. You've noted the importance of a little word "IF" - the prepositions are in a sense the same - seemingly small words but making connections in some fascinating ways.

I've read about your speaking a few languages. My wife does also. We used some time on several occasions to compare translations in Greek, English, and a few European languages. It brought out some interesting findings at times.

I don't know if you've ever seen this chart - it's a pretty detailed version of tool used in early Greek training to show the basic spatial sense of the prepositions. We can see how eis is motion to and movement into. And en is being inside, in the sphere of, in union with, etc.

Literal translation as you know can be rough between languages, but in our Text it can provide some clarity to just let it say what it says and then adjust our thinking to it as best we can. This is where I start.

I do agree with you that we can get a lot from English and also other languages. We can also get into a lot of nonsense in any of them.

Hey!
Are you serious!

I took one look at that chart and my brain turned off!

And "a few" languages sounds like a lot.
I doubt I said a few.

I was having a convo with a calvinist a couple of years ago, and he believed that DRAW ALL PEOPLE TO MYSELF meant DRAG.

DRAG is used in Acts (can't remember the verse) but it's a different word in other languages...
in English is was being translated as the same word.

This is the only time I can remember where the Greek was extremely important.

In other cases,,,unless a person is doing a real scholarly study (which most of us do not) I doubt the Greek is really necessary..

EXCEPT

To get some nice deeper meaning that could open up new thoughts/ideas/the oipportunity to understand God/Jesus better.

 

[Dino246]

Some don't understand Scripture and like to change it's meaning.

The very words of Jesus are rejected for their own personal belief system.

Only the Holy Spirit can help these persons.

Who are the “Some” to whom you refer here. Let’s have some names.

 

[studier]

Hey!
Are you serious!

I took one look at that chart and my brain turned off!

And "a few" languages sounds like a lot.
I doubt I said a few.

I was having a convo with a calvinist a couple of years ago, and he believed that DRAW ALL PEOPLE TO MYSELF meant DRAG.

DRAG is used in Acts (can't remember the verse) but it's a different word in other languages...
in English is was being translated as the same word.

This is the only time I can remember where the Greek was extremely important.

In other cases,,,unless a person is doing a real scholarly study (which most of us do not) I doubt the Greek is really necessary..

EXCEPT

To get some nice deeper meaning that could open up new thoughts/ideas/the oipportunity to understand God/Jesus better.

I should have sent the simpler version!
2 or 3 languages?
DRAW was correct - drag is another sense but not appropriate here.
I live in that realm of "EXCEPT" - I entered into it some time ago.

 

[Dino246]

Most interesting indeed.

So, according to you, Christians are not required to do good works as Jesus commanded?

Where in Isaiah 64 does it state that good works were to get God's favor?

Do you think God is AGAINST good works?

Seems to me God is very happy when those who claim to know Him do good works for His Kingdom on earth.

You have made a common but silly error here. It’s called an “equivocation”.

I think you’re smart enough to recognize it. Whether you have the integrity to own up to it remains to be seen.

 

[Toknow]

Who are the “Some” to whom you refer here. Let’s have some names.

I don't like speaking to you.

 

[Toknow]

You have made a common but silly error here. It’s called an “equivocation”.

I think you’re smart enough to recognize it. Whether you have the integrity to own up to it remains to be seen.

i don't like speaking to you.

 

[Toknow]

You have made a common but silly error here. It’s called an “equivocation”.

I think you’re smart enough to recognize it. Whether you have the integrity to own up to it remains to be seen.

Oh wait.
Let's say it like this:

Well Dino...
you see....
it's not like I don't want to...
well, it's like this, you see.
Hmmm. Maybe I'd rather not...

you know....
like, maybe respond....

yeash. Maybe that's what I mean.

 

[Toknow]

I should have sent the simpler version!

LOL
I doubt that would have been any better !!

2 or 3 languages?

That's good enough.
(3)

DRAW was correct - drag is another sense but not appropriate here.
I live in that realm of "EXCEPT" - I entered into it some time ago.

Yes sir.

PS
All i had to do was look it up in my Italian bible...
E DIO DISSE
LA BIBBIA

Nice title.
I have a few Italian ones too.

 

[Dino246]

I don't like speaking to you.

I suspect the issue is that you don't like what I say to you because I reveal shortcomings in your rationale, behaviour, and views.

 

[Sipsey]

I agree Sipsey,

I do think there are many paths to a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. But it would sure be nice to know exactly what response God is looking for in this day and age, wouldn't it?

Your post shows a deep understanding and discernment of faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo.
How did you come to understand this?

Any wisdom or discernment I may have accumulated is a direct product of turning to God amid suffering. Many of us are so hard headed, it takes a catastrophe or two before we listen. Even then, we can take no credit for what He does through the Holy Spirit.