Loss of salvation???

[BillG]

Please try to stick to scripture.

Your comments are just OPINION.

And PLEASE do post what I've ASSUMED...since it's something I do not do.

Below is what you said to @Gideon300

Talk is cheap Gideon.

How about posting some scripture instead of your OPINION?

What I'm hearing right now is that:

1. Obedience is nice,,,but not really necessary.
2. No difference between justification and sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all...nothing is required of us.

If you care to address the above,,,please use the NT which you claim to understand.

A few assumptions there.

You accuse and assume the below about me


You're one of those that states that we obey IF WE WANT TO.
Or something or other about wanting to.

I'm sure I will find more.

 

[Toknow]

I'm not wasting my time with you. What I've said should be written on your heart. If I thought that you are open to truth, I would take time to respond.

The truth?

What is the truth?

That we obey Jesus only when we want to?

You think I should be open to the turth?

As if YOU have the truth and I DO NOT??

That is rather prideful of you.

Please show, with scripture, that absolute obedience is not necessary and that Jesus did not teach obedience.

That would really be appreciated.

But you won't find it.

Better to bow out of a discussion...
If you had supporting scripture....
you'd post it.

 

[Toknow]

Below is what you said to @Gideon300

Talk is cheap Gideon.

How about posting some scripture instead of your OPINION?

What I'm hearing right now is that:

1. Obedience is nice,,,but not really necessary.
2. No difference between justification and sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all...nothing is required of us.

If you care to address the above,,,please use the NT which you claim to understand.

A few assumptions there.

You accuse and assume the below about me


You're one of those that states that we obey IF WE WANT TO.
Or something or other about wanting to.

I'm sure I will find more.

I do believe you've misunderstood everything.

Are you thinking that I BELIEVE your list of 1, 2, 3???

If so, go back and make sure to what you're responding.

And please try to be more humble as Jesus stated in Matthew 5.

You do SOUND like those that are willy nilly about obedience.

You could always state that you do believe that we MUST obey God.

 

[mailmandan]

Ah.....

So you DO believe there are TWO groups:

One that states that we are to OBEY GOD and, indeed MUST obey Him.

and the other group -to which YOU belong -
that muddies the waters in order to be able to believe that we ARE NOT REQUIRED TO OBEY God.

You need something "concise" in order to know that God must be obeyed???

Most strange indeed.

And you think there are TWO gospels?

You've been reading too much of the master of music's posts.

You can always find two different groups in scripture. One group believes the gospel and the other group does not believe the gospel/believes a "different" gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Hebrews 4:2-3; Galatians 1:6-9) There are not two gospels but one. My group doesn't teach that we are not required to obey God, which is your continued straw man argument. My group also does not turn obedience to God into a must or else, performance based, legalistic prescription for salvation either.

 

[BillG]

I do believe you've misunderstood everything.

Are you thinking that I BELIEVE your list of 1, 2, 3???

If so, go back and make sure to what you're responding.

And please try to be more humble as Jesus stated in Matthew 5.

You do SOUND like those that are willy nilly about obedience.

You could always state that you do believe that we MUST obey God.

Once again. assuming and accusing.

You are the one who needs to be humble.

I didn't misunderstand anything.

You assumed and accused @Gideon300 and I copy and pasted what you said to him.

 

[Toknow]

You can always find two different groups in scripture. One group believes the gospel and the other group does not believe the gospel/believes a "different" gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Hebrews 4:2-3; Galatians 1:6-9) There are not two gospels but one. My group doesn't teach that we are not required to obey God, which is your continued straw man argument. My group also does not turn obedience to God into a must or else, performance based, legalistic prescription for salvation either.

Again MMD

WE MUST OBEY GOD.

And you talk about carpet bombing.
You post many verses in them there parenthesis.
Don't you?

How about making a statement and then posting the scripture to support...
which is HOW it's done.

Please post some scripture that supports your idea that we obey because we WANT to
but do not HAVE to.

Thanks.

But later.
You have all day to look them up.

 

[BillG]

I do believe you've misunderstood everything.

Are you thinking that I BELIEVE your list of 1, 2, 3???

If so, go back and make sure to what you're responding.

And please try to be more humble as Jesus stated in Matthew 5.

You do SOUND like those that are willy nilly about obedience.

You could always state that you do believe that we MUST obey God.

You sound like someone who believes we are not saved by faith but only by a level of works and obed.

Faith is irrelevant.

 

[Toknow]

Once again. assuming and accusing.

You are the one who needs to be humble.

I didn't misunderstand anything.

You assumed and accused @Gideon300 and I copy and pasted what you said to him.

WHAT did I say to him?

Please clarify.

 

[Toknow]

You sound like someone who believes we are not saved by faith but only by a level of works and obed.

Faith is irrelevant.

What do you mean by SAVED BY??

We have members here that are a bit confused as to this phrase.

 

[BillG]

WHAT did I say to him?

Please clarify.

What I'm hearing right now is that:

1. Obedience is nice,,,but not really necessary.
2. No difference between justification and sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all...nothing is required of us.

If you care to address the above,,,please use the NT which you claim to understand.

Your assumptions above.

 

[BillG]

What do you mean by SAVED BY??

We have members here that are a bit confused as to this phrase.

It's a question to be answered.
What are we saved by?

Are we saved by our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus?
Or are we saved by our works?

Ephesians 2 8:10
. 8oFor by grace you have been saved pthrough faith, and that not of yourselves; qit is the gift of God, 9not of rworks, lest anyone should sboast. 10For we are tHis workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

 

[mailmandan]

You really do need to learn how to use vereses that are condusive to your stated purpose.

You picked 1 John 3:7-10 ??!!

You picked James 3:1??!!

I picked 1 John 3:7-10. You originally picked James 3:1.

Bad choices.

Again, you really should heed James 3:1.

1 John 3:7-20
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

These are great verses which point out the contrast between children of God and children of the devil.

What does it say?

1. We should not be deceived by those who practice lawlessness. Verse 4

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. This even applies to pseudo-Christians/make believers. (Matthew 7:22-23)

2. Those who practice righteousness are righteous. Notice the sequence.....we PRACTICE....we ARE.

Children of God do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous but BECAUSE they ARE righteous. Don't put the cart before the horse.

3. We must be righteous as God is righteous.

How do we become righteous as God is righteous? By obedience/works? NO. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

4. If we practice sin...lawlessness (Matthew 7)....disobedience...are not of God.

Amen! Descriptive of unbelievers/make believers. The sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 2:2; Colossians 3:6)

5. Those who are born of God do NOT practice sin/lawlessness....which is disobedience.

Practice sin, lawlessness, disobedience is the key word. Does that mean sinless perfection/perfect obedience 100% of the time? NO. (1 John 1:8-10)

6. We are not of God if we do NOT PRACTICE RIGHEOUSNESS.

That is the demonstrative evidence that we are not of God.

To be righteous .... RIGHT WITH GOD.....we MUST OBEY God.

To be righteous with God our faith must be accounted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) Obedience/practicing righteousness/good works follow. Stop turning obedience into works-righteousness.

Your verse
James 3:1
3 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Originally, this was your verse. I simply through it right back at you.

Do YOU teach the absolute necessity of obeying God?

Yes, but not in the same way that you teach it - "must or else/legalistic prescription for salvation." If we never obeyed God, then we would demonstrate that we are not born of God. So, in the latter sense, yes.

THAT is what you're SUPPOSSED to be teaching.

I teach that we are to obey God. I just don't turn obedience into a legalistic prescription for salvation, which culminates in works-righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

Again MMD

WE MUST OBEY GOD.

And you talk about carpet bombing.
You post many verses in them there parenthesis.
Don't you?

How about making a statement and then posting the scripture to support...
which is HOW it's done.

Please post some scripture that supports your idea that we obey because we WANT to
but do not HAVE to.

Thanks.

But later.
You have all day to look them up.

We want to obey but do not have to is a straw man argument. If we must or else obey (legalistic prescription for salvation) then there must be a line drawn in the sand on how much obedience it takes to be saved and remain saved. Can you show me where that line in the sand is drawn? How much obedience does it take?

In regard to obedience, we need the right motivation. Obedience out of love and not out of fear and bondage to legalism.

John 14:5 - If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14:21 - Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.
1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Ephesians 6:24 - Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.
2 John 1:3 - Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.

These verses emphasize that obedience is a response to God's love and grace and not simply a legalistic adherence to rules. Our obedience to God is rooted in our love for Him and our desire to follow Him and not fear and bondage to legalism.

When it comes to obedience in receiving salvation:
Must or else obey the gospel (by choosing to believe the gospel) or else? YES. (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4; 1 Thessalonians 1:8)

As a child of God:
Must obey God perfectly, 24/7 as a legalistic prescription for salvation or else? NO. Now there are consequences for acts of disobedience and God will discipline His children (Hebrews 12:5-8) yet children of God, though not perfect (1 John 1:8-10) are still characterized by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Qt]

Amen! Not must or else but WILL keep his commandments IF we love Him.

Yes must! John 14:15 is spoke in the imperative mood. It is a command.

 

[Qt]

When Jesus says IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

He's saying you better keep His commandments.

Again...
the unsaved are not required to keep the commandments of God.

Believers are.


See post 7458 where you stated this:

"I’d love to see the verse where Jesus literally says we must obey Him, because I’ve never come across one. "


Just,,,you don't see a verse where Jesus literally says that we must obey Him because you DO NOT WANT to see it.

I've posted plenty...

AND

I shouldn't even have to post any!

I post that we must obey Jesus
and I get pushback from "christians".
strange.

Because they are running out of arguments. The Holy Spirit is working on them, and their own words do not make sense to them.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes must! John 14:15 is spoke in the imperative mood. It is a command.

Must or else we demonstrate that we do not love Him and are not saved. Not must or else as a legalistic prescription for salvation. Those who keep His commandments are already saved. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, already saved, demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. See how that works?

 

[Mem]

Because they are running out of arguments. The Holy Spirit is working on them, and their own words do not make sense to them.

Jn 14:15 is not a command statement. It is a logical statement just like John 14:14, the same kind of if then statements used in math.

 

[Gideon300]

Again MMD

WE MUST OBEY GOD.

And you talk about carpet bombing.
You post many verses in them there parenthesis.
Don't you?

How about making a statement and then posting the scripture to support...
which is HOW it's done.

Please post some scripture that supports your idea that we obey because we WANT to
but do not HAVE to.

Thanks.

But later.
You have all day to look them up.

I looked up the most appropriate scripture for you:

"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them." Titus 3:10

You are divisive and unteachable. You've had ample opportunity to accept God's word, and from different people. I'll leave you to God to sort out.

 

[BillG]

I looked up the most appropriate scripture for you:

"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them." Titus 3:10

You are divisive and unteachable. You've had ample opportunity to accept God's word, and from different people. I'll leave you to God to sort out.

They are not here to discuss or help,
Just to accuse and beat their own chests make assumptions.
Just like the Pharisees.

 

[Qt]

Jn 14:15 is not a command statement. It is a logical statement just like John 14:14, the same kind of if then statements used in math.

Logical? I think not. That would mean it is stated in the indicative mood, as a fact. Verse 14 is stated in this mood, as a fact. Verse 15 is stated in the imperative mood.
Mood: iMperative (M) (Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes)
Mood: iMperative (M) - Koine Greek Grammar
Imperatives command or invite action; check whether the force is prohibitive (μή + present) or urgent (aorist).