Loss of salvation???

[studier]

"And being made perfect, he (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:9-14

Consider as well, obedience is paramount. The prophet Samuel said obedience is better than sacrifice. (1 Sam. 15:22) Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments." (John 14:15) , and James said those who hear the word but do not do what it says are deceiving themselves. Believers who love the Lord Jesus express it through obedience. It is obedience that brings about the promises stated in the Word of God.

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (James 1:22-25)

Good verses. And I'd note that the Text in tying faith & obedience together as it does, enables us to conclude that Heb5:9 is talking about obedience in the sense of faith-obedience. And just like we can attach these 2 here, we can attach them in the verses like Paul for instance when he's using only 'faith' in a statement. Very rarely do we have to consider them separately when reading Scripture. It's really not that tough to grasp but for the conditioning so many have gone through.

 

[studier]

Please elaborate on what you mean by: "IOW, when we're looking at things like Hebrews, we may not be looking at the right things."

What is genuine faith - what other words help describe it - how does the Text develop its full meaning? How do we discuss falling away from the faith if we don't know what faith means? And BTW, please note that I just used "the faith" and "faith" - are they the same?

What is 'salvation' in its full scope? Many recognize concepts like it being 3 phases for example, but they break it apart into things like salvation > sanctification > glorification. The Text isn't so cut and dry about the first 2 at least. Sanctification can speak of 1 & 2. Salvation is spoken of something that covers all 3 phases. We make up these constructs and teach them but when we read the Text we find they don't fit precisely. Then we see that part of the construct is being used to prove a strict and inviolable phase one that may not match the Text. And we wonder how much our teachers who use this 3-phase construct have ever really thought through how the Text treats them - as distinct phases for us to separate, as 3 phases of a unity, as ???. And we say things like there are 2 gospels and when Jesus said those who endure until the end will be saved applies only to Jews in a certain era and has nothing to do with what Paul says and even plays against what Jesus himself says.

So, what if salvation is a process and faith itself includes willing obedience, productive good works, abiding, enduring, maturing, and so on, and what if we're carrying forth misunderstandings of such things and then trying to read things like Hebrews and other Scriptures?

One of the interesting things I realized in studies of hermeneutics and even exegesis is that they really do not have much to any focus on the meanings of words - IOW to me we only build on proper foundations - which I think Jesus and Paul agree with. But in these studies of methodology some seem to skip over the absolute, common-sense, foundational practice of understanding what a word means. And God applies several layers of instruction re: what He means when He speaks of things like faith and salvation. FWIW, I've learned more about some things biblical by simply reverting back to the basics of working on harmonizing how God uses words like these, than I have by listening to and reading systematic theologies that may or may not know what a word means. We're simply speaking a different language than God if we don't know what He means when He speaks a word.

Big picture. Hope it makes sense.

 

[BillG]

What is genuine faith - what other words help describe it - how does the Text develop its full meaning? How do we discuss falling away from the faith if we don't know what faith means? And BTW, please note that I just used "the faith" and "faith" - are they the same?

What is 'salvation' in its full scope? Many recognize concepts like it being 3 phases for example, but they break it apart into things like salvation > sanctification > glorification. The Text isn't so cut and dry about the first 2 at least. Sanctification can speak of 1 & 2. Salvation is spoken of something that covers all 3 phases. We make up these constructs and teach them but when we read the Text we find they don't fit precisely. Then we see that part of the construct is being used to prove a strict and inviolable phase one that may not match the Text. And we wonder how much our teachers who use this 3-phase construct have ever really thought through how the Text treats them - as distinct phases for us to separate, as 3 phases of a unity, as ???. And we say things like there are 2 gospels and when Jesus said those who endure until the end will be saved applies only to Jews in a certain era and has nothing to do with what Paul says and even plays against what Jesus himself says.

So, what if salvation is a process and faith itself includes willing obedience, productive good works, abiding, enduring, maturing, and so on, and what if we're carrying forth misunderstandings of such things and then trying to read things like Hebrews and other Scriptures?

One of the interesting things I realized in studies of hermeneutics and even exegesis is that they really do not have much to any focus on the meanings of words - IOW to me we only build on proper foundations - which I think Jesus and Paul agree with. But in these studies of methodology some seem to skip over the absolute, common-sense, foundational practice of understanding what a word means. And God applies several layers of instruction re: what He means when He speaks of things like faith and salvation. FWIW, I've learned more about some things biblical by simply reverting back to the basics of working on harmonizing how God uses words like these, than I have by listening to and reading systematic theologies that may or may not know what a word means. We're simply speaking a different language than God if we don't know what He means when He speaks a word.

Big picture. Hope it makes sense.

If memory serves me do the words Pistis (noun) & Pisteous (verb) is to belive in Jesus and as a result actions will follow?

A faith and that trusts in God, we give ourselves up to him.



It's a faith that is active and not passive.
Saved by faith unto good works.

Romans 16
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for fobedience to the faith— 27to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Probably a base understanding but thought I'd put it out

 

[Toknow]

What I'm hearing right now is that:

1. Obedience is nice,,,but not really necessary.
2. No difference between justification and sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all...nothing is required of us.

If you care to address the above,,,please use the NT which you claim to understand.

Your assumptions above.

Usually we give a post number and put the exact words of the other member if quotation marks or we highlight them.

But let's see if I've understood you even without much help from you:

You're saying that I'm saying that some are saying:

1. obedience is nice...but not really necessary.
2. No difference between Justification and Sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all....nothing is required of us.

Yes sir.
That IS what some on this thread are saying or insinuating.

So what am I supposed to use the NT for?

To prove that some on this thread are stating 1, 2 or 3 ??

Yes sir.
You've midunderstood something.

You'll have to figure it out.

 

[BillG]

Usually we give a post number and put the exact words of the other member if quotation marks or we highlight them.

But let's see if I've understood you even without much help from you:

You're saying that I'm saying that some are saying:

1. obedience is nice...but not really necessary.
2. No difference between Justification and Sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all....nothing is required of us.

Yes sir.
That IS what some on this thread are saying or insinuating.

So what am I supposed to use the NT for?

To prove that some on this thread are stating 1, 2 or 3 ??

Yes sir.
You've midunderstood something.

You'll have to figure it out.

No points 1.2,3 are what you said to @Gideon300
So I was saying that I believe you are making these assumptions.
I haven't misunderstood at all,
Is it possible you have?

Post number #7423 is what you said to @Gideon300

 

[Toknow]

What is genuine faith - what other words help describe it - how does the Text develop its full meaning? How do we discuss falling away from the faith if we don't know what faith means? And BTW, please note that I just used "the faith" and "faith" - are they the same?

What is 'salvation' in its full scope? Many recognize concepts like it being 3 phases for example, but they break it apart into things like salvation > sanctification > glorification. The Text isn't so cut and dry about the first 2 at least. Sanctification can speak of 1 & 2. Salvation is spoken of something that covers all 3 phases. We make up these constructs and teach them but when we read the Text we find they don't fit precisely. Then we see that part of the construct is being used to prove a strict and inviolable phase one that may not match the Text. And we wonder how much our teachers who use this 3-phase construct have ever really thought through how the Text treats them - as distinct phases for us to separate, as 3 phases of a unity, as ???. And we say things like there are 2 gospels and when Jesus said those who endure until the end will be saved applies only to Jews in a certain era and has nothing to do with what Paul says and even plays against what Jesus himself says.

So, what if salvation is a process and faith itself includes willing obedience, productive good works, abiding, enduring, maturing, and so on, and what if we're carrying forth misunderstandings of such things and then trying to read things like Hebrews and other Scriptures?

One of the interesting things I realized in studies of hermeneutics and even exegesis is that they really do not have much to any focus on the meanings of words - IOW to me we only build on proper foundations - which I think Jesus and Paul agree with. But in these studies of methodology some seem to skip over the absolute, common-sense, foundational practice of understanding what a word means. And God applies several layers of instruction re: what He means when He speaks of things like faith and salvation. FWIW, I've learned more about some things biblical by simply reverting back to the basics of working on harmonizing how God uses words like these, than I have by listening to and reading systematic theologies that may or may not know what a word means. We're simply speaking a different language than God if we don't know what He means when He speaks a word.

Big picture. Hope it makes sense.

What a great post studier !!
Yes sir.
Faith and The Faith are different.
Justification and Sanctification are clumped together for simplification...
but certainly, if we do not have sanctification, of course our justification will be affected.

 

[Toknow]

It's a question to be answered.
What are we saved by?

Are we saved by our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus?
Or are we saved by our works?

Ephesians 2 8:10
. 8oFor by grace you have been saved pthrough faith, and that not of yourselves; qit is the gift of God, 9not of rworks, lest anyone should sboast. 10For we are tHis workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

You'll have to clarify.

I'm not replying to a question that is not clear.
Been discussing this with @mailmandan for YEARS and he leans back and forth on the meaning.

You'll have to explain SALVATION.
Starting from when we do not believe.

Sorry, but this is what it's come to between Christians.
Sad, isn't it?

 

[BillG]

Talk is cheap Gideon.

How about posting some scripture instead of your OPINION?

What I'm hearing right now is that:

1. Obedience is nice,,,but not really necessary.
2. No difference between justification and sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all...nothing is required of us.

If you care to address the above,,,please use the NT which you claim to understand.

Post 7423

Your response @Toknow to Gideon.

Now listen to me.

I am always open to a discussion, I'm ok to an extent to disagree.
But I will never back down when I am accused or have assumptions made about me with out discussions.

By all means ask and question.
But never accuse me of not loving Jesus and not being obedient.
This is an open thread and quite honestly you consider me a liar and people will see this even when I have made my case and posted that every day I ask the Holy Spirit to help me to be like Jesus.

 

[BillG]

You'll have to clarify.

I'm not replying to a question that is not clear.
Been discussing this with @mailmandan for YEARS and he leans back and forth on the meaning.

You'll have to explain SALVATION.
Starting from when we do not believe.

Sorry, but this is what it's come to between Christians.
Sad, isn't it?

Very sad but I assume you don't consider me a or @mailmandan a Christian?
I do so on the basis that you have accused/assume that we do not need to be obedient to what our Father in heaven wants us to be.

That's how you come across.

Bill

 

[BillG]

Usually we give a post number and put the exact words of the other member if quotation marks or we highlight them.

But let's see if I've understood you even without much help from you:

You're saying that I'm saying that some are saying:

1. obedience is nice...but not really necessary.
2. No difference between Justification and Sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all....nothing is required of us.

Yes sir.
That IS what some on this thread are saying or insinuating.

So what am I supposed to use the NT for?

To prove that some on this thread are stating 1, 2 or 3 ??

Yes sir.
You've midunderstood something.

You'll have to figure it out.

See post 7585

 

[BillG]

Usually we give a post number and put the exact words of the other member if quotation marks or we highlight them.

But let's see if I've understood you even without much help from you:

You're saying that I'm saying that some are saying:

1. obedience is nice...but not really necessary.
2. No difference between Justification and Sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all....nothing is required of us.

Yes sir.
That IS what some on this thread are saying or insinuating.

So what am I supposed to use the NT for?

To prove that some on this thread are stating 1, 2 or 3 ??

Yes sir.
You've midunderstood something.

You'll have to figure it out.

Read post 7583

 

[studier]

If memory serves me do the words Pistis (noun) & Pisteous (verb) is to belive in Jesus and as a result actions will follow?

A faith and that trusts in God, we give ourselves up to him.



It's a faith that is active and not passive.
Saved by faith unto good works.

Romans 16
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for fobedience to the faith— 27to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Probably a base understanding but thought I'd put it out

For many reasons Scriptural, the words as I read them and about them do and must include actions. For example, I've presented Scriptures many times that faith and obedience are parallel and appositional in Scripture - most simply meaning obedience and faith are two-side of the same coin. In genuine faith (a phrase from Paul in 1 & 2 Tim) there is no such thing as faith without obedience.

As I've shown from James2:17 several times, the works he speaks of are an intrinsic part of faith. So, genuine faith consists of obedience and [good] works.

So, genuine faith contains these things and they will act outwardly in the genuine believer even if it takes some time like the growth process of the plants the Text uses as analogy for an agrarian people.

One of the components that seems to bother some is that our initial believing the Gospel is also obeying the Gospel whether or not we understand this at first. It's just built into the process by God who commands belief in His Son. So, whether or not we understand this, by grace God has started us out in and internal faith-obedience that contains good works as part of it and begins working in us to manifest good works done in faith-obedience.

IMO, it's absolutely correct to be asserting obedience and good works for believers and standing against anything the suggests otherwise while using some wisdom re: growth from infancy through and to maturity and understanding that within what I just laid out, those good works are only done once we are [re]created to do them and within a faith-obedience relationship with the Godhead in Christ Jesus in Spirit.

 

[BillG]

For many reasons Scriptural, the words as I read them and about them do and must include actions. For example, I've presented Scriptures many times that faith and obedience are parallel and appositional in Scripture - most simply meaning obedience and faith are two-side of the same coin. In genuine faith (a phrase from Paul in 1 & 2 Tim) there is no such thing as faith without obedience.

As I've shown from James2:17 several times, the works he speaks of are an intrinsic part of faith. So, genuine faith consists of obedience and [good] works.

So, genuine faith contains these things and they will act outwardly in the genuine believer even if it takes some time like the growth process of the plants the Text uses as analogy for an agrarian people.

One of the components that seems to bother some is that our initial believing the Gospel is also obeying the Gospel whether or not we understand this at first. It's just built into the process by God who commands belief in His Son. So, whether or not we understand this, by grace God has started us out in and internal faith-obedience that contains good works as part of it and begins working in us to manifest good works done in faith-obedience.

IMO, it's absolutely correct to be asserting obedience and good works for believers and standing against anything the suggests otherwise while using some wisdom re: growth from infancy through and to maturity and understanding that within what I just laid out, those good works are only done once we are [re]created to do them and within a faith-obedience relationship with the Godhead in Christ Jesus in Spirit.

Is that not what I have said in the post?

 

[studier]

but certainly, if we do not have sanctification, of course our justification will be affected.

This is what I mean. When we see from the Text that 'salvation' applies to the entire process in however many parts, then how do we say that if sanctification is not taking place, that salvation is intact or that justification has taken place or that something has not happened to it all? We make up these constructs and they become the authority.

 

[studier]

Is that not what I have said in the post?

I don't know. Maybe so. Your post was brief. I filled in some data.

It seems we agree, no?

 

[Toknow]

We want to obey but do not have to is a straw man argument. If we must or else obey (legalistic prescription for salvation) then there must be a line drawn in the sand on how much obedience it takes to be saved and remain saved. Can you show me where that line in the sand is drawn? How much obedience does it take?

But YOU are the one sayiing we DO NOT HAVE to.
NOT me!

How is it a strawman argument??!

Yes......just to clarify again for the 1,000th time:

WE MUST OBEY
or there are consequences.

You want to draw a line in the sand?
Go ahead.

Sounds like you want to know HOW FAR you can go and still be saved.

In regard to obedience, we need the right motivation. Obedience out of love and not out of fear and bondage to legalism.

You need a MOTIVATION to obey God??

I don't really care what the motivation is....
what I'm saying is:

WE MUST OBEY GOD.

God demands obedience.

He did in the Old Testament
and He does in the New Testament.

God does not change.


1 John 2:3
3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

If we keep His commandments it means we have come to know Him.


Luke 11:28
28But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”


We must hear the word of God and keep it, obey it.


1 Samuel 15:22
22And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

To obey God is even better than burnt offerings.

John 14:5 - If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14:21 - Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.
1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

You're quoting back my verses to me.

So apparently you seem to understand that we are to obey God.
So why are you debating this?

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Ephesians 6:24 - Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.
2 John 1:3 - Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.

These verses emphasize that obedience is a response to God's love and grace and not simply a legalistic adherence to rules. Our obedience to God is rooted in our love for Him and our desire to follow Him and not fear and bondage to legalism.

I don't see anything about obedience in your verses.
I've posted MANY verses that plainly state that JESUS expects our obedience.

YOUR verses speak to the love of God for us.
And indeed He does love us if He went to the cross for us.

Maybe you could check out the NT again and post some verses about how it's not really necessary to obey God.

When I say WE MUST OBEY....
you reject it.

So one has to suppose that you do not believe that WE MUST OBEY.

Your veres are of no help to you.

When it comes to obedience in receiving salvation:
Must or else obey the gospel (by choosing to believe the gospel) or else? YES. (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4; 1 Thessalonians 1:8)

As a child of God:
Must obey God perfectly, 24/7 as a legalistic prescription for salvation or else? NO. Now there are consequences for acts of disobedience and God will discipline His children (Hebrews 12:5-8) yet children of God, though not perfect (1 John 1:8-10) are still characterized by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

The consequence for not obeying God is loss of our salvation.
No sanctification
No justification
No salvation

Colossians 1:22-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23 if indeed you continue in [ad]the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel




Revelation 2:4-5
4 But I have this against you: You have departed[k] from your first love!

5 Therefore, remember from what high state[l] you have fallen and repent! Do[m] the deeds you did at the first;[n] if not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place—that is, if you do not repent.

John was writing down what Jesus told him to write down.

 

[Toknow]

I picked 1 John 3:7-10. You originally picked James 3:1.

Again, you really should heed James 3:1.

These are great verses which point out the contrast between children of God and children of the devil.

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. This even applies to pseudo-Christians/make believers. (Matthew 7:22-23)

Children of God do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous but BECAUSE they ARE righteous. Don't put the cart before the horse.

How do we become righteous as God is righteous? By obedience/works? NO. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Amen! Descriptive of unbelievers/make believers. The sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 2:2; Colossians 3:6)

Practice sin, lawlessness, disobedience is the key word. Does that mean sinless perfection/perfect obedience 100% of the time? NO. (1 John 1:8-10)

That is the demonstrative evidence that we are not of God.

To be righteous with God our faith must be accounted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) Obedience/practicing righteousness/good works follow. Stop turning obedience into works-righteousness.

Originally, this was your verse. I simply through it right back at you.

Yes, but not in the same way that you teach it - "must or else/legalistic prescription for salvation." If we never obeyed God, then we would demonstrate that we are not born of God. So, in the latter sense, yes.

I teach that we are to obey God. I just don't turn obedience into a legalistic prescription for salvation, which culminates in works-righteousness.

Same ole same ole.

It gets tiring.

And you're just repeating.

If you care to break it down..OK...
otherwise, too much talk.

Not enough scripture...

and the scripture you ARE using is not supporting your point of view.
Pick a verse at a time if you care t discuss.

 

[Toknow]

I looked up the most appropriate scripture for you:

"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them." Titus 3:10

You are divisive and unteachable. You've had ample opportunity to accept God's word, and from different people. I'll leave you to God to sort out.

THAT verse states we are not required to obey God?

I DID say that you would not find any such verse.

You could have nothing to do with me...that's fine.
in fact, it would be good.
One less heretical belief system to deal with.

And you say I'm UNTEACHABLE?

Let me assure you Gideon300
I have NOTHING to learn FROM YOU.

 

[Toknow]

I do see the reason you MUST have gotten banned before. Have a nice day.

Thanks for that Just.

I did have a rather nice day.

Next time you post to me,,,,,
please use scripture instead of stories about your spouse.

It's much more theological.

 

[Toknow]

I do see the reason you MUST have gotten banned before. Have a nice day.

Want to see a good interview which teaches that some just do not understand analogies?



It happens to be about the situation in England, but please do not let that deter you.