And yet you are here to what? Talk about people or their posts without actually addressing anything relevant?
Sad you received a positive affirmation for this ill behavior. As if, hey good job, keep it up.
Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
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Sad you received a positive affirmation for this ill behavior. As if, hey good job, keep it up.
Romans 10:9 - if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
FOR THOSE WHO ARE SAVED JESUS IS BOTH THEIR SAVIOR AND THEIR LORD.
You mean like they do?
Accuse people of stuff that it not true and make assumptions.
I do address.
What would you do if someone said this to you?
Accused you of the below
Go on ahead and lie to God - tell Him you love Him while you don't obey Him.
That judgment call was well above her paygrade and was uncalled for.
YepThat judgment call was well above her paygrade and was uncalled for.
Yep and should have been addressed as such. Not with more ill.That judgment call was well above her paygrade and was uncalled for.
The problem is it still carries on if you try to address and disagree with the assumptions time l they make against people.
Here is another one
No one who obeys God actually believes you love Him. Your speech and actions through time show that. You aren't fooling God either.🕊
I have made it clear over the years that I love God and want to be the person he’s wants me to be.
Every day I ask the Holy Spirit to help me to be like Jesus.
They still attack and accuse.
And the reason is that I don’t believe we are saved by works only.
Therefore they assume I do sod all.
OK, IMO that list is just formulizing what those Scriptures say vs. what some here are trying to make them say.
For clarity, and I think I can say this to you and have it taken seriously, I remain open on this loss-of-salvation view. I'm not fully committed either way and I don't see the argument being resolved by thinking what we've been thinking for millennia now. I've read a lot of exegetical work and maybe some of it is correct, but I'm not fully convinced and remain open to continued exegesis and explanation, both from others and in my own work.
The problem with most of the discussions here are that they are repeating known arguments that disagree with one another as if this will resolve anything, which is why I make many comments about systematic theologies. Being taught how to think about the Text by different factions is not the same as actually studying the Text, which is still going on at many levels no matter what anyone thinks about their pastor or historical scholar or camp namesake.
Re: your above thoughts, which I appreciate BTW, in part because we never know who will say something that is the light-bulb moment for us all:
- I agree with your assessments of the Matt & Mark conditional statements. The Greek structures on conditional clauses are easy to identify from the wording, though they may be a bit difficult to interpret apart from truly understanding the different types of arguments being made.
- Yes, I am working from and still on Heb6 and from Galatians and from other parts of the Text. The hypothetical "unicorn" of this Scripture as you likely know is debated. I'm still open to the debate.
- Rather than the analogies you've put forth, and I'm not good at coming up with them or I would do so, I stick mainly with the analogies in the Text. Your wings analogy goes with your unicorn thinking - if given wings then can't lose the wings or the new creature status. But the agricultural analogy used by the writer says if no productivity, then burned. And the flow of the Text re: repentance has what I see as an informative warning statement in Heb6:3 that God is the one who permits repentance. IMO we take Him too lightly. Some in these discussions are inserting these %'s and dividing lines as if they're a strong argument when actually they can just be fallacious forms of argument. This verse tells me God permits repentance (or not) and He doesn't tell me how He makes the decision.
- I've spoken of this before, but I'll tell you while thinking you'll treat it respectfully. I spent many years in a systematic camp, went to a camp seminary, got ordained as a pastor-teacher in the camp, taught camp doctrine for some time all the while continuing studies using the exegetical tools I'd been trained in. In my own work I was noticing things in the Text that did not seem to agree with the camp. Then part of the camp went through a split and I knew had been taught by some who split. The split in part was about the Gospel for goodness sakes - the Gospel! I'd been taught by men who were now disagreeing about the Gospel. So, I redeemed a few years, full-time, doing exegetical studies about the Gospel, about "faith", about "salvation" - just me, the Word, the Spirit, God. I was also continuing to teach at the time and my deal with the home church was that I'd teach what I what I was learning. The conclusion was that much of the camp that split, though scholars, did not fully understand either faith or salvation, and that much of the camp had become so focused on the 1Cor15 'gospel' that they were really not teaching who 'the Christ" is - they'd in large part skipped over the foundation.
IOW, when we're looking at things like Hebrews, we may not be looking at the right things.
"And being made perfect, he (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:9-14
Consider as well, obedience is paramount. The prophet Samuel said obedience is better than sacrifice. (1 Sam. 15:22) Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments." (John 14:15) , and James said those who hear the word but do not do what it says are deceiving themselves. Believers who love the Lord Jesus express it through obedience. It is obedience that brings about the promises stated in the Word of God.
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (James 1:22-25)
Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:9-14
Consider as well, obedience is paramount. The prophet Samuel said obedience is better than sacrifice. (1 Sam. 15:22) Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments." (John 14:15) , and James said those who hear the word but do not do what it says are deceiving themselves. Believers who love the Lord Jesus express it through obedience. It is obedience that brings about the promises stated in the Word of God.
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (James 1:22-25)
Your hesitation is of your own making. When making mention on belief in the red letters, that sets apart only certain things from the rest of scripture that is ALL His words...apart from those declarations where it's stated that it is the writer rather than the Lord. See? It's only the setting apart aspect of your comment that I addressed BECAUSE of there being people out there who believe the red letters are more authoritative than the rest.
So, making this about YOU when it was more about bringing in ALL of scripture with the nonsense of the red lettering, that's a lesson for all, not a personal attack against you. Playing the victim card like this doesn't speak well of your stability.
MM
Please elaborate on what you mean by: "IOW, when we're looking at things like Hebrews, we may not be looking at the right things."
No matter how many times these fallacious arguments are addressed by whomever, they just get continually repeated.
Assuming the language of a line drawn, it's likely not "how much" but "if any" - or better yet, of any remaining in the vine as commanded so the branch can grow and produce as required. Hopefully one can see how continual willingly cooperative faith-obedience is part of this.
The reason we don't see "how much" is because it's not the line drawn - the "how much" is the straw man based in a false binary and this is only part of the fallacy involved in this lack of logical reasoning and misrepresentation.