Faith or Law?

[Nedsk]

It explains quite a but more in that chapter than one verse about there must be works alongside faith. Anyone can go into a church and say the sinners prayer, but what does he do after that? Will he have any works? What works? Why?

Joining the Lord's family is the beginning my friend, it's almost like joining the Service. You signed up and then, you show up and are trained and then do military stuff, the work of it. Our works and good deeds for others is the fruit of wow we can see you are in the service now, it shows. In our military it may be in the Uniform he wears, or in the case of grenades in his garage (Lol)

James 2: 14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also..../KJV

Our works are the proof to God that we are serious about following Him.

Two kinds of Christians said the sinners prayer that day in church. One went home to wait on God to bless him and he sat down on his couch, and made sure to go to church every sunday. I'm saved now.

The other Christian went home and began reading God's word to put him self into the presence of God and He began asking lots of questions and he felt so good that he wanted to please the Lord. The Lord blessed him for it because obedience is rewarded to us from the Lord.

Yes but works are a choice. If they aren't then how can we justly be judged for doing them or not don't them? If they arent a choice then we aren't acting out of love.

 

[Nedsk]

More deflection from your inability to answer a simple question relating to a portion of scripture

So it's a deflection to point of the incongruence in your position? Guilty as charged. You have no clue what to do when someone just refuses to roll over huh?

 

[James456]

So it's a deflection to point of the incongruence in your position? Guilty as charged. You have no clue what to do when someone just refuses to roll over huh?

Youve just shown your inability to answer a simple question relating to scripture placed before you. That's just a plain fact

 

[Nedsk]

Youve just shown your inability to answer a simple question relating to scripture placed before you. That's just a plain fact

There's an incongruence in your position that you just can't or won't address and it's a significant one but you would prefer to focus on me. My position has no incongruence as Paul and James have to be talking about different things otherwise Scripture is in conflict. Rote memorization of messages doesn't help you with with me. God gave you a brain to use for more than memorizing.

 

[James456]

There's an incongruence in your position that you just can't or won't address and it's a significant one but you would prefer to focus on me. My position has no incongruence as Paul and James have to be talking about different things otherwise Scripture is in conflict. Rote memorization of messages doesn't help you with with me. God gave you a brain to use for more than memorizing.

Its like this, when you enter a debate, you ask someone to address your scriptures, then you are expected to address there's. That you cannot do, hence your words now

 

[Nedsk]

Its like this, when you enter a debate, you ask someone to address your scriptures, then you are expected to address there's. That you cannot do, hence your words now

I'll try again. More passages doesn't change the incongruence in your position. You're premise in the debate is faulty so the result can only be faulty. You guy throw tons of rote memorized passages at people and some people either lose sight of their or point or give up. I do neither. The only point that matters is your position suggests a conflict in Scripture and that cannot be. So either scripture is in conflict or you are wrong. If scripture is in conflict then any reference to is dubious.

 

[James456]

I'll try again. More passages doesn't change the incongruence in your position. You're premise in the debate is faulty so the result can only be faulty. You guy throw tons of rote memorized passages at people and some people either lose sight of their or pont or give up. I do neither. The only point that matters is your position suggests a conflict in Scripture and that cannot be. So either scripture is in conflict or you are wrong.

Im not wasting anymore of my time with you, have a nice day

 

[Nedsk]

Im not wasting anymore of my time with you, have a nice day

You as well. When you're ready to actually discuss rather then throw memorized passages at me I'd love to continue the conversation. God bless

 

[James456]

It explains quite a but more in that chapter than one verse about there must be works alongside faith. Anyone can go into a church and say the sinners prayer, but what does he do after that? Will he have any works? What works? Why?

Joining the Lord's family is the beginning my friend, it's almost like joining the Service. You signed up and then, you show up and are trained and then do military stuff, the work of it. Our works and good deeds for others is the fruit of wow we can see you are in the service now, it shows. In our military it may be in the Uniform he wears, or in the case of grenades in his garage (Lol)

James 2: 14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also..../KJV

Our works are the proof to God that we are serious about following Him.

Two kinds of Christians said the sinners prayer that day in church. One went home to wait on God to bless him and he sat down on his couch, and made sure to go to church every sunday. I'm saved now.

The other Christian went home and began reading God's word to put him self into the presence of God and He began asking lots of questions and he felt so good that he wanted to please the Lord. The Lord blessed him for it because obedience is rewarded to us from the Lord.

Which do you think God would prefer, works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, or works done with a view they would better enable someone to enter Heaven?

 

[Dino246]

Character traits are easy to understand, so righteousness can also be easy to understand,

That does not follow.

The only way to attain a character trait is through faith

Utter hogwash. Godless people develop character traits through upbringing and hard work.

but what it means to attain a character trait is to be a doer of works that embody that trait.

No, that is not what it means. Attaining is not demonstrating.

For example, the only way for someone to become courageous is through faith

No. Millions of people have demonstrated courage without being persons of faith.

the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds to the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

That is not what Romans 3:28-31 says.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous also upholds the Law of God.

Meaningless bafflegab.

While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19) and that he obeyed the command to offer Isaac because he believed God (Hebrews 11:17), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works

You got that the wrong way around. James' entire argument is that works demonstrate faith.

 

[Edward429451]

Yes but works are a choice. If they aren't then how can we justly be judged for doing them or not don't them? If they arent a choice then we aren't acting out of love.

Absolutely works are a choice. So choose to do the good works for people, out of love not out of to impress people, build a ministry or whatever. Do them with genuine love, like you would want someone to do for you if the shoes were reversed.

 

[Edward429451]

Which do you think God would prefer, works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, or works done with a view they would better enable someone to enter Heaven?

To, enable them to escape hell...I would venture to guess that such a person has never met the Lord personally. They may know a ot about him and have much doctrine but do they know Him? That guy don't want Jesus, he only wants what Jesus has.

No one has any clue what awaits us in heaven if we have a relationship with our Lord. The Lord may say to the guy who only wants to escape hell and not necessarily Him, I never knew you...??

 

[Nedsk]

Absolutely works are a choice. So choose to do the good works for people, out of love not out of to impress people, build a ministry or whatever. Do them with genuine love, like you would want someone to do for you if the shoes were reversed.

I'm not in disagreement I'm in disagreement that faith causes works. That's not a choice.

 

[Nedsk]

Which do you think God would prefer, works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, or works done with a view they would better enable someone to enter Heaven?

You seem to be suggesting you know what God would prefer. Salvation is God's gift to decide what to do with and he can give it to whoever he wants. Matt 20: 1-16

 

[Pilgrimshope]

P,,,this is long and will have to wait till the morning. 11PM here and shutting down.

BUT

You MUST learn how to use the quote system to separate your words from my words.

Here's how:

HIT REPLY

SEPARATING THE WRITING OF THE OTHER MEMBER (TO WHOM YOU'RE RESPONDING)

USE THE BRACKETS
OPEN BRACKET [
CLOSE BRACKET ]

AT BEGINNING OF SENTENCE/PARAGRAPH:
OPEN BRACKET AND THE WORD QUOTE IN CAPS
CLOSE BRACKET

AT END OF SENTENCE/PARAGRAPH
/ PLUS THE WORD QUOTE IN CAPS PLUS CLOSE BRACKET


THEN YOU WRITE WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.
DO THIS FOR EACH COMMENT TO WHICH YOU WANT TO REPLY.


And here's what's funny:
I can't show you by example because it REALLY WORKS !

“You MUST learn how to use the quote system to separate your words from my words.”

i thought I was lol . I’m pretty much tech illiterate I apologize but it’s like I’m reading Russian and can’t read Russian

 

[James456]

To, enable them to escape hell...I would venture to guess that such a person has never met the Lord personally. They may know a ot about him and have much doctrine but do they know Him? That guy don't want Jesus, he only wants what Jesus has.

No one has any clue what awaits us in heaven if we have a relationship with our Lord. The Lord may say to the guy who only wants to escape hell and not necessarily Him, I never knew you...??

Charles Spurgeon once said:
''How many works must we do to be sure we have done enough to enter Heaven? No one seems to know''

We all fall so far short. Jesus gave us examples of works if you like we can do

If someone asks to lend from you, give to them without ever expecting anything back
Do not invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind lame and beggars
If someone steals from you, give them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them
If you fast, ensure no one knows you are fasting.
Love your enemies, including those who may malign, harrass or persecute you.

 

[Edward429451]

I'm not in disagreement I'm in disagreement that faith causes works. That's not a choice.

You're over thinking this.

 

[Edward429451]

You seem to be suggesting you know what God would prefer. Salvation is God's gift to decide what to do with and he can give it to whoever he wants. Matt 20: 1-16

You asked me so I gave you my opinion.

WHy did you ask me?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm not in disagreement I'm in disagreement that faith causes works. That's not a choice.

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

For instance by faith Noah built the ark to the saving of his house and became hier of the righteousness of faith

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God gave grace and came to Noah and warned him about the flood and then instructed him how to prepare the ark and promised him he would make a new covenant with he and his family, Noah believed what God said to him .

noah believed this

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:13-14, 17-18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because he listened to Gods word telling him what was going to come and how to save his family and he believed what God told him this gave him the choice to build the ark . If he had not believed the flood was coming or not been told to build the ark and be saved , he couldn’t have known to do those things . Faith is the very thing ( hearing what god said ) that gives us the opportunity to make the right choices

many refuse to hear what he’s saying bin the gospel which you may have noticed but if we listen to him he’s telling us the truth from God about our own salvation and bidding us to believe and attend the “ wedding banquet “ to which the gospel invites us all

“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.


Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:2-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.”

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can learn the right things by listening to Jesus teach the people in the gospel . Some refuse to do this however

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Remember where faith comes from one group will find faith the other isn’t going to but it’s only when we hear the lords word tbat we could possibly choose to obey him ….

 

[Gideon300]

I agree but you assume the results (works) are caused by faith. That's completely incorrect

I assume nothing of the sort. There are dead works as well as works that are the result of faith. That then poses the question of what that all means.