Faith or Law?

[Gideon300]

The people in the Bible wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching him to obey His law, but you seem to want God to be gracious to you instead of teaching you to obey it. We are new creations in Christ to do good works and the Law of Moses is His instructions for equipping us to do every good work. Those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so only those who are following his example of walking in obedience the Law of Moses are in Christ. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free obey the Law of Moses, not the other way around. Christ freed us from the law of sin in order for us to be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law off Moses (Romans 8:3-4). Paul also contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of Moses (Romans 8:4-7). Jesus lived in obedience to the Law of Moses, so that is the way that we have the gift of getting to live when he is living in us.

God does not have to teach me to obey the law. And the law is vastly inferior to God's true nature and character. it is possible to obey the law and still be far below God's standard of perfection. Read the Sermon on the mount. Then you might finally get a clue.

I have the Lord Jesus living in me to be all that God requires me to be. If I am walking in the Spirit, I will be pleasing God apart from any law. You've obviously ripped the book of Galatians out of your Bible. Find someone else's Bible and read Galatians.

 

[Nedsk]

I assume nothing of the sort. There are dead works as well as works that are the result of faith. That then poses the question of what that all means.

To say works are the "result" of faith is to say faith causes works. Damage to the front of my car is a result of driving it into a tree. Had I not driven into the tree there would be no damage. People without faith are quite capable of doing good works so it's not faith that produces them.

 

[Soyeong]

God does not have to teach me to obey the law. And the law is vastly inferior to God's true nature and character. it is possible to obey the law and still be far below God's standard of perfection. Read the Sermon on the mount. Then you might finally get a clue.

I have the Lord Jesus living in me to be all that God requires me to be. If I am walking in the Spirit, I will be pleasing God apart from any law. You've obviously ripped the book of Galatians out of your Bible. Find someone else's Bible and read Galatians.

It would be overwhelming to us for God to exhaustively teach us how to embody His character traits in every possible situation, so the point is to teach us those character traits by abstracting them from a limited set of instructions that all have them in common. If we correctly understand a character trait, then it will lead us to take actions that embody it in accordance with what God's law instructs even in situations that it does not specifically address, but correctly understanding a character trait will never lead us away from following the instructions that God gave for how to embody it.

Everything that Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount is in accordance with the OT. Jesus lived in perfect obedience to the Law of Moses, so that is the way that we have the gift of getting to live when he is living in us. Everything that Jesus did was in accordance with the Law of God, but even if he had lived by a higher standard than the Law of God, then at the very least it was still inclusive of obedience to it. God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Law of God is His instructions for how to embody His character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it and why someone who refuses to submit to it is not walking in the Spirit.

I still have Galatians in my Bible and I have read it, but I just don't agree that it should be interpreted as speaking against following Christ's example. Even if Galatians should be interpreted as speaking against being followers of Christ, then we should be followers of Christ rather than Paul.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Understanding "what it all means"?

To say works are the "result" of faith is to say faith causes works.

Precious friend @Nedsk, how about this?:

1) God's Result Of "Grace Through faith" Without works? = Justification/Eternal Salvation

(Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3-5; Titus 3:4-7 AV), Correct?​

​

2) God's Purpose For the new-born babe who needs to learn about "works"?:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which ​

God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10 AV)​

3) Are all of God's children going to "walk in good works"?:

The Judgment Seat Of Christ:​

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall​

receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers​

together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.​

According to The Grace Of God Which Is Given Unto me, as a wise masterbuilder,​

I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon. But let every man take​

heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that​

is laid, Which Is Jesus Christ.​

​

Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay,​

stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day Shall Declare it, because​

it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.​

​

If any man's work abide which he hath built Thereupon, he shall receive a reward.​

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself Shall Be Saved;​

yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)​

​

Conclusion: We each Justified/Saved members "make building choices" each day,
do we not? Therefore, it is Best to "choose wisely", eh?

---------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[Dino246]

Even if Galatians should be interpreted as speaking against being followers of Christ, then we should be followers of Christ rather than Paul.

That you suggest this indicates that you don't understand Galatians at all.

 

[James456]

You seem to be suggesting you know what God would prefer.

Well Im sure anyone with little discernment would know which God would prefer.

An act prompted by love

An act prompted by the view it would better enable a person to attain to heaven may be done grudgingly, with resentment even, it could be done without any love at all.



How did Paul say the law of Christ could be fulfilled?

By carrying each others burdens(loving them) Gal6:2

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

That is very true.
And, I can only wonder, if many who emphasise the law of Moses/non moral law, do so for it can faultlessly be obeyed, as even the worst of sinners faultlessly obeyed it(Phil3:6) So, it makes them feel good about themselves, knowing there is so much law they can obey without error. But what do they do about the moral side of the law? For they will never faultlessly obey that.

'"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me."' (Luke 11:23 New Living Translation, Carol Stream, Illinois.

 

[James456]

'"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me."' (Luke 11:23 New Living Translation, Carol Stream, Illinois.

Is there a point you would like to ellucidate on?

 

[Gideon300]

To say works are the "result" of faith is to say faith causes works. Damage to the front of my car is a result of driving it into a tree. Had I not driven into the tree there would be no damage. People without faith are quite capable of doing good works so it's not faith that produces them.

God does not accept works that are not of faith.
Romans 14:23
But the one who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that is not from faith is sin.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God. For anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

The only thing that God accepts is what is of Christ.

 

[Toknow]

I could understand this since the Abrahamic actually uses the word COVENANT.
“Also the NEW...Jesus called it the New and everlasting Covenant.
Most skip the whole idea of Covenant and never see any connection.”

yes this is why I suggest that we study prophecy . The ot prophets were often speaking of the covenant made between God and the children of isreal , but also spoke much of the new and promised covenant . The prophets tell a story that culminates with Jesus coming just as the nt apostles and prophets tell a story of Jesus returning again at the culmination of the new covenant. Which we see coming to pass in revelation 21 but has been promised since the prophets of the ot

Right.
Kudos to you for gleening this from just reading the OT and the NT !

if we look we can see “the lion of Judah “.in scripture and how he was ti be the law giver . Or we can hear Moses telling the people God would raise up another like him that would speak Gods words of requirement to the people . Then we can hear Jesus claimkng to be him and Peter claiming Jesus was the one Moses foretold who would speak Gods everlasting word ect the prophets forninstance

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then the nt shows us it’a about Jesus reconciling the people to god beating thier sins ….

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭

Or concerning his word

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:1, 3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Nt

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

prophecy

“The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: the grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:3-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Nt
“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everything continually supports the other thing even when two things seem contradictory eventually through scripture they do indeed reconcile

Nothing to add !

[/QUOTE]

 

[Toknow]

“You MUST learn how to use the quote system to separate your words from my words.”

i thought I was lol . I’m pretty much tech illiterate I apologize but it’s like I’m reading Russian and can’t read Russian

Sorry Pilgrim....
that one post was really difficult to read and separate my words from yours.
Maybe it was just that one post.

Anyway, this is a weird system.
Sometimes I forget to put either the beginning or the end of the quotes and it needs to be fixed
PLUS we have a time limit on editing !

Just clicking twice after the quote to which we want to respond would be so much easier.

 

[Toknow]

God does not accept works that are not of faith.
Romans 14:23
But the one who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that is not from faith is sin.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God. For anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

The only thing that God accepts is what is of Christ.

Gideon
OF COURSE we need to have faith FIRST !

WHO on this thread is doubting that?

The good works come after one is saved.

And Jesus did teach that we are to do good works/deeds.

Of course, Paul taught the same.

 

[Toknow]

To say works are the "result" of faith is to say faith causes works. Damage to the front of my car is a result of driving it into a tree. Had I not driven into the tree there would be no damage. People without faith are quite capable of doing good works so it's not faith that produces them.

Faith should produce good works.

@Gideon300 is right that we need FAITH first.

After we have faith,,,good works will follow.

But, yes, the must follow or there's a problem.

 

[Gideon300]

Gideon
OF COURSE we need to have faith FIRST !

WHO on this thread is doubting that?

The good works come after one is saved.

And Jesus did teach that we are to do good works/deeds.

Of course, Paul taught the same.

Some said that the world produces good works. I beg to differ. From man's point of view, yes, they are good. From God's point of view, they are not.

 

[Edward429451]

Anyway, this is a weird system.

It sure is.

 

[Toknow]

Some said that the world produces good works. I beg to differ. From man's point of view, yes, they are good. From God's point of view, they are not.

I know what you mean.

But think for a minute:

Do you know any atheists that do good works/deeds?

BUT
They don't have faith....

but their good works still funciton and do good for mankind.

 

[Toknow]

Some said that the world produces good works. I beg to differ. From man's point of view, yes, they are good. From God's point of view, they are not.

Wait.
Maybe by THE WORLD PRODUCES GOOD WORKS
you mean something different?

But gotta go....

 

[Nedsk]

Understanding "what it all means"?

Precious friend @Nedsk, how about this?:

1) God's Result Of "Grace Through faith" Without works? = Justification/Eternal Salvation

(Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3-5; Titus 3:4-7 AV), Correct?​

​

2) God's Purpose For the new-born babe who needs to learn about "works"?:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which ​

God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10 AV)​

3) Are all of God's children going to "walk in good works"?:

The Judgment Seat Of Christ:​

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall​

receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers​

together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.​

According to The Grace Of God Which Is Given Unto me, as a wise masterbuilder,​

I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon. But let every man take​

heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that​

is laid, Which Is Jesus Christ.​

​

Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay,​

stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day Shall Declare it, because​

it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.​

​

If any man's work abide which he hath built Thereupon, he shall receive a reward.​

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself Shall Be Saved;​

yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)​

​

Conclusion: We each Justified/Saved members "make building choices" each day,
do we not? Therefore, it is Best to "choose wisely", eh?

---------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

Copy and pasted responses don't impress me. Are "works of the law" the same as "works"? Yes or no? Anything more than yes or no from you I stop replying. I've been through too many of these rodeos with you people.

 

[studier]

Copy and pasted responses don't impress me. Are "works of the law" the same as "works"? Yes or no? Anything more than yes or no from you I stop replying. I've been through too many of these rodeos with you people.

Depends on the verse.

 

[Nedsk]

Faith should produce good works.

@Gideon300 is right that we need FAITH first.

After we have faith,,,good works will follow.

But, yes, the must follow or there's a problem.

You contradict yourself. This is why talking with you folks is a real challenge.

Yes faith SHOULD produce good works, I agree, but that is much different than works WILL follow.

Another distraction about faith occuring first. No one is debating that, so to mention it is superfluous to the conversation. If you're claiming faith causes works that again contradicts your SHOULD.
If works automatically follow faith in here would be no need to work out our salvation with dear and trembling. James would not need to tell us faith without works is dead.