Faith or Law?

[Soyeong]

It's the second time I lost everything...the first time I was able to repeat.

Ouch, thank you for taking the time to repeat it.

This is generally true for all of scripture.

But it was my point exactly...
today, in modern USA..we cannot follow MOST of the laws in the OT Mosaic Law.

When the Israelites were exiled to Babylon after the destruction of the 1st Temple, then there was a large portion of the Mosaic Law that they could no longer obey, but that didn't mean that they shouldn't be faithful to obey the parts that they could obey.

Right.
One of the reasons for the LAW, was so that we could know when we sin.
Agreed.

BUT
By this I'm referring to the Moral Law and Paul was referring to the moral law too because he stated over and over again that we are not saved by following THE LAW of Moses.

Paul said we are to follow the Law of faith...in Christ, of course.


Romans 1:5
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from[c] faith for his name’s sake.

We are to follow the obedience OF FAITH...for Jesus.
NOT the Law of Moses.

You granted that the categories of law are human contracts and are not based on what Paul said, so. you should not interpret him was referring to the moral law, especially when you have no way to establish a list of which laws he considered to be part of the moral law.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is, so while we can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses, Jesus graciously teaching us to be doers of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being doers of it. It is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God but not in His instructions or faith in God's Word made flesh but not in God's Word.

Yes. It certainly sounds like this.
BUT
Jesus said He did not come to ABOLISH the Law
but to fulfill it. So yes, it's importanat to know what fulfill means.




View attachment 285650



We're not going to agree as to the meaning of the word pleroo.

This is from Strong's no. 4137...pleroo

pléroó: To fill, to make full, to complete, to fulfill
Original Word: πληρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pléroó
Pronunciation: play-ro'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro'-o)
KJV: accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply
NASB: fulfill, fulfilled, filled, made full, completed, fill, made complete
Word Origin: [from G4134 (πλήρης - full)]

1. to fully, completely fill
2. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow)
3. (figuratively) to fully supply, satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
accomplish, complete, fulfill
From pleres; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc. -- accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.


This, coupled with theological teaching, can only mean that Jesus came to COMPLETE,,,
to SATISFY, to ACCOMPLISH, to END the Law.

We should understand the meaning of "pleroo" in a way that is in accordance with the context of how it is used, so while I grant that it has within its range of meanings to mean essentially the same thing as abolishing or relaxing it, I don't see any justification for understanding "pleroo" as having a meaning that would contradict the context of Jesus saying that he came not to abolish it and Jesus warning against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to relax the least part of it. The Bible doesn't present the Law of Moses as being specific task that once we have completed or accomplished it, then we no longer need to obey it, but rather it presents it in language like "this is a statue forever throughout your generations". It is not the case for example that if we keep the Sabbath holy, then we have fulfilled our obligation to that command and no longer need to do that, but rather it is something that we need to keep doing in perpetuity. When a husband is fulfilling his marriage vows, then he is correctly acting in accordance with what he has vowed, not ending his marriage. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as abolishing the Law of Christ. If Jesus had meant that he really came to abolish the Law, then why did he immediately proceed to teach how to correctly obey it and continue to live in obedience to it? In Romans 15:18-19, Paul said that he fulfilled the Gospel, so do you think that he abolished it?

Moreover, a number of the definitions that you listed that are in accordance with the definition from the NAS Greek Lexicon that I quoted, such as teaching a complete understanding of how to obey the Law of Moses, filling up our understanding of it, or to fully preach it. The definition that I quoted is the only definition that it listed that is specifically in regard to fulfilling the law, it fits with what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next after he said that he came to fulfill the law, it fits with how other verses use it, and it fits with how other Jewish writings speak about fulfilling the law in the sense of correctly meeting our obligation to it, and it doesn't have Jesus contradicting himself, so please give justification for why you think that my definition is incorrect and for why your definition should be preferred.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17......that our righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees, who followed The Law...
what does that mean to you?

Jesus was about to fulfill the law by correcting things that the people had heard the Pharisees teaching by teaching how to correctly obey the law as it was originally intended, so our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees because they were not correctly following it.

HOW has loving my neighbor fulfilled the LAW,,,,
It DOES fulfill what Jesus taught:
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

It fulfills what Jesus taught.
It makes what He taught COMPLETE.
This simple command puts AN END to all the other ones.

The word FULFILL retains its proper meaning.

Everything in the Law of Moses is either in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so love fulfills the law because it is showing a correct understanding of what it about how to do. The position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them, such as if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit idolatry, murder, adultery, theft, favoritism, kidnapping, rape, and so forth for the rest of the Law of Moses. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Law of Moses because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. It would be contradictory for someone to think that we should just obey God's command to love, but not His other commands for how to love.

Paul absolutely taught the same as Jesus did.
Agreed.

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so if Paul also taught the same thing that Jesus did, then he also taught to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example.

So what does the Messianic era have to do with following THE LAW.

And I don't know that you ever defined THE LAW of Moses.

Also, if you could find those verses you had posted to me,,,I'd be happy to respond.
(the post I lost).

Acts 20:24-25 “But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.”

Acts 28:23 “When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.”

 

[Soyeong]

OK, you stand by only the doers of the law of Moses will be justified.
Well I have no inclination, no desire to follow the law of moses in respect of the law of rite, ritual and ceremony, and I have no consciousness of sin whatsoever in not doing so. And I am sure I am in the vast majority of people on this website concerning that

If someone's conscience is not bothered by doing what God has revealed to be sin, then that does not indicate that there is nothing wrong with doing that, but rather it indicates that there is something wrong with their conscience. Paul spoke about people having weak consciences that were not permitting them to do what they should otherwise be permitted to do, about people who have a conscience that is so seared that they boast in what is shameful, about people who have defiled consciences, and said that he was not justified even those his conscience was clean. So our consciences can become damaged, can work incorrectly, or can be ignored, so our conscience does not indicate our spiritual condition and needs to be informed by the Law of Moses in order to work correctly.

 

[Soyeong]

We are free of the ceremonial law of Moses but not the 10 commandments!
We needed the 10 Commandments so we know what sin is.

Now under the New Covenant, We are the Temple.
Pick up your crosses daily is our sacrificial system now. We die to ourselves to follow Him, our Lord. Every day.

We do not look to the Law because we are led by the Holy Spirit of God so we look to our heart and the Spirit to lead us instead of looking to the law.
So, dont look to the law, look towards the Lord Himself.

The Bible never lists which laws are part of the ceremonial law, it never specifies that we are free from the ceremonial law, and never even refers to that as being a subcategory. Sin is the transgression of any of God's commands, not just ten of them. For example, in James 2:1-11, he criticized them for committing the sin of favoritism. The New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather the goal of the Law of Moses is to teach us how to embody God's character traits and God's character traits are the fruits if the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it under the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who having minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character, which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow that can equivalently be described either as walking in the Spirit or as walking in obedience to the Law of Moses. It is contradictory to think that we should look to God's Word made flesh instead of following his example of embodying God's Word.

The way I understand it, I am the righteousness of Christ, in Christ. And where the Lord is is Liberty and no law, but as members of the body. we continue to not do any sins or wrong no one, not because of the Law but because of a change in my heart that takes place over time, so I am in Christ and my spirit does not sin but sin dwells within my flesh. One day I'll receive my new body and not be bothered by the flesh anymore.

Absolutely everything is a test on this earth. Learn to love them even those who would kill you. I have found that I am being transformed by the renewing of my mind and heart over time, and this is a process over time if we stay in Christ. That means being led by the Spirit. So though I am not perfect, I am the righteousness of God in Christ and led by the Spirit daily, moment by moment.

Christ embodied his righteousness through his works by setting an example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so that is the way that we have the gift of getting to live when we become the righteousness of Christ, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).

 

[James456]

If someone's conscience is not bothered by doing what God has revealed to be sin, then that does not indicate that there is nothing wrong with doing that, but rather it indicates that there is something wrong with their conscience. Paul spoke about people having weak consciences that were not permitting them to do what they should otherwise be permitted to do, about people who have a conscience that is so seared that they boast in what is shameful, about people who have defiled consciences, and said that he was not justified even those his conscience was clean. So our consciences can become damaged, can work incorrectly, or can be ignored, so our conscience does not indicate our spiritual condition and needs to be informed by the Law of Moses in order to work correctly.

You don't understand the new covenant
What ever law God wants to see reflected in your life is written in your mind and placed on your heart by God himself at conversion. You must know in your mind what is in your mind, the law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt consciousness of sin if you wilfully ignore it, for: Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom 3:20
You arent understanding a spiritual covenant

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Faith or Law? Or:

Is it "faith PLUS law"? Or, is it: "Grace Through faith" Without Law?

This was written by one of the foremost scholars of the Law. We do well to take him seriously.

Amen, we Certainly do; an Excellent series on this Very Thing:

TBG #'s 382 - 391 "Freedom From The Law"

1) Yes, the "Law" Still exists today, And What Is God's Purpose for That Existence?:

"Knowing this, that the law is Not made for a righteous man,..."​

[ Q: Are you "Justified By Grace Through faith, Counted righteous By God? ]​

​

[ Then Today, Under Grace, According To Christ's Very Truthful Words To Paul:​

The Law is for the Unrighteous, Correct? ]:​

​

"...but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,​

for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers,​

for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with​

mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any​

other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" (1 Timothy 1:9-10 AV)​

​

Thus, "The Law is for Holy Spirit Conviction" Of God's Undiluted Wrath, eh?

In Light Of God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, Just A Simple Question:

I have decided to follow Jesus? So, "Which Commands Should I obey?:

His earthly gospel of the kingdom?:

“faith plus works” Scriptural Requirements of this gospel:

1) water baptism "For the remission of sins" (works)

(Matthew 3:6; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luke 3:2-3, 7-29-30 Acts 2:38 AV)​

2) keep the law of Moses (works)

(Matthew 5:17-19, 19:16-17, 23:1-3 cp Acts 21:20, 22:12 AV)​

3) righteousness Exceeding Pharisees’ (works) (Matthew 5:20 AV)

4) forgive others first, then be forgiven (works) (Matthew 6:14-15 AV)

5) sell all, take up cross, follow Christ (works)

(Matthew 19:21; Mark 10:21 cp Acts 2:44-45, 4:34-37 AV)​

6) endure unto the end (works) (Matthew 24:13 AV)

7) mercy toward others (works) (Matthew 25:34-40 AV)

8) Jews/Hebrews = All the above "mixed with" what, Exactly?

"...we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore​

fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should​

seem to come short of it.​

​

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word​

preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."​

(Hebrews 3:19-4:1-2 cp Matthew 7:21-23 AV)​

​

Scripturally Confirmed by "faith without works is dead" to
"the twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1, 2:17, 20, 26 AV)

Earthly gospel of the kingdom

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Heavenly Gospel Of The Grace Of God!...

to be continued...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

[ Previously ] the Earthly gospel of the kingdom

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

And, Exactly What Is It Now?

Christ's Heavenly Gospel Of The Grace Of God!:​

B) God's Other ( Representation Of One! [ see Ephesians 4:1-6 AV ] ) Context :

Mystery / Grace With Christ As The Risen and Glorified Head Of
His Church, The One Body Of Christ, and Heavenly Minister Of
Reconciliation:

Paul, one apostle to the [ blinded Jews ] and the [ heathen ] Gentiles,
preaching Jesus Christ, According To [ Given By Christ, From Heaven ]
The Revelation of The Mystery:

The Gospel Of The Grace Of God

1) Paul, Saved By Grace And Mercy, far apart from Jerusalem, the twelve
apostles, and their prophecy, covenants, and law, God Committing to
him "The Dispensation Of The Grace Of God" (Ephesians 3:2 AV), With:

2) Paul, the first 'member' of the One Body Of Christ, Baptized By The

One Spirit in Acts Chapter 9, which is:​

a) the One New man [ not a woman 'bride' ]

(Ephesians 2:15 cp "man" in Ephesians 4:13 AV), which is:​

b) A New 'creation' (2 Corinthians 5:17 AV), and Now:

c) all members after Paul, In God's Dispensation Of Grace, "follow a pattern":

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me first​

Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern​

to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life​

everlasting." (1 Timothy 1:16 AV)​

+​

"Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."​

(1 Corinthians 4:16 AV)​

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."​

(1 Corinthians 11:1 AV)​

​

"Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children"​

(Ephesians 5:1 AV)​

​

"Brethren, be followers together of me..."​

(Philippians 3:17 AV)​

3) Two Requirements of The Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

"By Grace Through faith" ( alive! ) Apart from all works, For God's​

Eternal Salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4;​

Romans 3-5, 11:6; Titus 3:4-7 AV)​

4) The 'One Gospel' for Today, In Which God Forbids for another to
be preached, or mixed in, with His Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into​

The Grace Of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but​

there be some that trouble you, and would pervert The Gospel Of Christ.​

​

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto​

you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.​

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other​

gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."​

(Galatians 1:6-9 AV)​

Lord, I pray that all brothers and sisters are in agreement with your One
Grace Gospel of today, and will not fall under this horrible curse.
+
And, For The Sanctification of the righteous, Under Grace, Not Law? We Should obey?:

All Of Christ's "New Law of Faith" Commands To Paul Found In Romans - Philemon AV),
Correct?

Amen. cc: @James456, what think ye?
+
Bonus study:
Agreement With The Gospel?

----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[James456]

​

Amen. cc: @James456, what think ye?
+
Bonus study:
Agreement With The Gospel?

----------
.

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56 The legally binding law with the power to condemn.

But as Paul states, the law, what is written in it is holy, just and good (Rom7:12)

So what was God to do? He obviously would want to remove the power of sin, but he would not want to remove what is holy just and good.
The law comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the attached penalty for transgression. Nothing wrong at all with the first part, it is holy, just and good, its the second part that's the problem

So God did an incredible thing. He transferred the law/what is written in it, from an external law engraved in stone, and made it an internal law in the hearts and minds of believers(2Cor3:3&Heb10:15-17)) An external law does not mean you in your heart would want to obey it does it. But a law placed in your heart, does mean in your heart you want to follow it. So, what is holy, just and good remains intact, it is now in your heart and mind. It simply means in your mind you know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to live that way. In your heart you do not want to murder, steal, commit adultery, covet, take the Lords name in vain etc. Hardly legalism! The law/what is written in the law that is now in your heart and mind cannot condemn you, you have no righteousness of obeying it, for Jesus died for your sins/your transgressions of the law: your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

Because, and only because you in your heart want to live as God desires you to live, he removed the penalty attached to the law for transgression from your life. He sent Jesus to die for your sins/your transgressions of the law. Therefore, the legally binding law with the power to condemn is removed from you. And therefore, the power of sin is also now removed from your life.



We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

With the power of sin removed from your life, you can now live a far holier life, a life you in your heart want to live for that is where the law now is. And you can do that because you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ. Christ died to pay the penalty of your sin, and he died to break the power of sin. And so Paul states:

Do we then make void the law by faith/righteousness of faith in Christ not obeying the law? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law Rom3:31

And:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/ righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ. Rom 6:14

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I could understand this since the Abrahamic actually uses the word COVENANT.
Also the NEW...Jesus called it the New and everlasting Covenant.
Most skip the whole idea of Covenant and never see any connection.

And, yes, I do believe some actually have to be looked into to understand them.
I hope you know that each Covenant has a sign and/or a seal. (some have both).
I've found this to be important.
Abrahamic = Circumcision
New = Baptism and yet we debate whether or not baptism is necessary.

Also, there's a Covenant before the Adamic...
it's the Edenic.

And If you're a Christian, then you're part of the New Covenant...
but we are sons of Abraham by having been grafted in. (Romans).

Thanks!

I could understand this since the Abrahamic actually uses the word COVENANT.
“Also the NEW...Jesus called it the New and everlasting Covenant.
Most skip the whole idea of Covenant and never see any connection.”

yes this is why I suggest that we study prophecy . The ot prophets were often speaking of the covenant made between God and the children of isreal , but also spoke much of the new and promised covenant . The prophets tell a story that culminates with Jesus coming just as the nt apostles and prophets tell a story of Jesus returning again at the culmination of the new covenant. Which we see coming to pass in revelation 21 but has been promised since the prophets of the ot

if we look we can see “the lion of Judah “.in scripture and how he was ti be the law giver . Or we can hear Moses telling the people God would raise up another like him that would speak Gods words of requirement to the people . Then we can hear Jesus claimkng to be him and Peter claiming Jesus was the one Moses foretold who would speak Gods everlasting word ect the prophets forninstance

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then the nt shows us it’a about Jesus reconciling the people to god beating thier sins ….

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭

Or concerning his word

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:1, 3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Nt

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

prophecy

“The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: the grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:3-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Nt
“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everything continually supports the other thing even when two things seem contradictory eventually through scripture they do indeed reconcile

 

[Edward429451]

The Bible never lists which laws are part of the ceremonial law, it never specifies that we are free from the ceremonial law, and never even refers to that as being a subcategory. Sin is the transgression of any of God's commands, not just ten of them. For example, in James 2:1-11, he criticized them for committing the sin of favoritism. The New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

There is a lot more than 10 commandments in scripture.

Like for instance the sermon on the mount....
Blessed are the meek for shall inherit the earth...now Jesus is making a statement here, clearly. But to me, this is the commandment to be meek. and so forth.

 

[Toknow]

I could understand this since the Abrahamic actually uses the word COVENANT.
“Also the NEW...Jesus called it the New and everlasting Covenant.
Most skip the whole idea of Covenant and never see any connection.”

yes this is why I suggest that we study prophecy . The ot prophets were often speaking of the covenant made between God and the children of isreal , but also spoke much of the new and promised covenant . The prophets tell a story that culminates with Jesus coming just as the nt apostles and prophets tell a story of Jesus returning again at the culmination of the new covenant. Which we see coming to pass in revelation 21 but has been promised since the prophets of the ot

if we look we can see “the lion of Judah “.in scripture and how he was ti be the law giver . Or we can hear Moses telling the people God would raise up another like him that would speak Gods words of requirement to the people . Then we can hear Jesus claimkng to be him and Peter claiming Jesus was the one Moses foretold who would speak Gods everlasting word ect the prophets forninstance

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then the nt shows us it’a about Jesus reconciling the people to god beating thier sins ….

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭

Or concerning his word

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:1, 3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Nt

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

prophecy

“The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: the grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:3-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Nt
“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everything continually supports the other thing even when two things seem contradictory eventually through scripture they do indeed reconcile

P,,,this is long and will have to wait till the morning. 11PM here and shutting down.

BUT

You MUST learn how to use the quote system to separate your words from my words.

Here's how:

HIT REPLY

SEPARATING THE WRITING OF THE OTHER MEMBER (TO WHOM YOU'RE RESPONDING)

USE THE BRACKETS
OPEN BRACKET [
CLOSE BRACKET ]

AT BEGINNING OF SENTENCE/PARAGRAPH:
OPEN BRACKET AND THE WORD QUOTE IN CAPS
CLOSE BRACKET

AT END OF SENTENCE/PARAGRAPH
/ PLUS THE WORD QUOTE IN CAPS PLUS CLOSE BRACKET


THEN YOU WRITE WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.
DO THIS FOR EACH COMMENT TO WHICH YOU WANT TO REPLY.


And here's what's funny:
I can't show you by example because it REALLY WORKS !

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

Right you can covet which breaks a commandment

“If you feared certain thoughts could send you to hell, what would you end up thinking about?”

thats what the gospel is meant for and why we need to hear and believe it …..

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;


and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel is meant to change how we understand God , ourselves , the world we live in and even what happens after we die . If we let the things Jesus was teaching into our mind and heart he will change the issue

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


commiting adultery was sin and is sin and will always be sin.

telling a corrupted sinner not to sin will never work though . But if you could change thier mind and heart cleanse the corruption and fill thier mind with the things of God the things he taught us to believe and dwell upon , if you teach them to not lust after thier neighbors wife then they never will commit adultery with her they will repent before they ever act .

Jesus is about taking a sinner and changing us to those who are after Hods own heart and want to walk in our lords ways out of gratitude and appreciation and love for him in return . The law was about regulating the corrupt sinners actions towards others “ don’t kill each other “ don’t lie to each other “ don’t steal from each other “

Its given as “ don’t do this sinful thing “ because they were corrupt and sinful people idolaters and sexually Immoral ect remember they had spent four hundred years without hearing from God in Egypt , a notoriously idolatrous nation even remembered today fornthier many idolatrous gods .

You tell an idolater “ don’t make idols and worship them “ you don’t tell Christian’s this they already believe in one God who sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life “

of course making an idol and worshipping a false god , would still be a terrible sin it’s just that Christian’s have the holt spirit and he’s changing us inside . If we just follow him on the gospel learn his ways and teachings ……we don’t need to be told “ don’t kill “ Jesus teaches us to love and do no harm to anyone so “ don’t kill “ becomes irrelevant we already know to love one another in his name and way …..it’s like this always .

we have a New Testament it comes through Jesus Christ itnisnt Moses word to ancient isreel it’s Jesus word to the world

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." (Luke 14:11 Tyndale House Publishers, NLT)

Religion, Religions : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices; the service and worship of God or the supernatural.

"You know what I was like when I followed the Jewish religion -- how I violently persecuted God's church. I did my best to destroy it." (Galatians 1:11 NLT)

Idol, Idols a representation or symbol of a false God.
Money officially coined or stamped metal or paper currency see also Possession(s) , Riches, Treasure(s), Wealth.

"Those who love money will never have enough. How meaningless to think that wealth brings true happiness! (Ecclesiastes 6:10 NLT)

 

[Soyeong]

P,,,this is long and will have to wait till the morning. 11PM here and shutting down.

BUT

You MUST learn how to use the quote system to separate your words from my words.

Here's how:

HIT REPLY

SEPARATING THE WRITING OF THE OTHER MEMBER (TO WHOM YOU'RE RESPONDING)

USE THE BRACKETS
OPEN BRACKET [
CLOSE BRACKET ]

AT BEGINNING OF SENTENCE/PARAGRAPH:
OPEN BRACKET AND THE WORD QUOTE IN CAPS
CLOSE BRACKET

AT END OF SENTENCE/PARAGRAPH
/ PLUS THE WORD QUOTE IN CAPS PLUS CLOSE BRACKET


THEN YOU WRITE WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.
DO THIS FOR EACH COMMENT TO WHICH YOU WANT TO REPLY.


And here's what's funny:
I can't show you by example because it REALLY WORKS !

If you want to quote someone use two quote tags in brackets with the text that you want to quote between them. For example:

[ Quote]Hello[ /quote]

If you type that line without the spaces in the quote tags, then it looks like

Hello

If you want to specify someone's name, then do:

[ Quote=Soyeong]Hello[ /quote]

With the spaces removed:

Hello

Sometimes it gets message up if you forget to at the / in the second quote tag, so you can hit preview to make sure that your post is formatted correctly.

 

[Toknow]

If you want to quote someone use two quote tags in brackets with the text that you want to quote between them. For example:

[ Quote]Hello[ /quote]

If you type that line without the spaces in the quote tags, then it looks like



If you want to specify someone's name, then do:

[ Quote=Soyeong]Hello[ /quote]

With the spaces removed:



Sometimes it gets message up if you forget to at the / in the second quote tag, so you can hit preview to make sure that your post is formatted correctly.

I see what you mean.
I was unable to give an example !
thanks!

I STILL WISH it could be changed.

HINT
HINT
for any mod reading along.

 

[Dino246]

Christ embodied his righteousness through his works by setting an example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses

Except that Scripture does not teach this. Jesus taught the Jews that their obedience to the law was inadequate.

so that is the way that we have the gift of getting to live...

Go and learn the meaning of "non sequitur".

Your "logic" is not logical. Salvation is not saving us from failing to follow the law so that we can follow the law. Your idea of salvation is not biblical at all.

which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).

You have made a large assumption with 1 John 2:6. While Jesus was indeed sinless, He did much more than merely "obey the law". You would do well to consider what else He did, so you don't continue believing errors.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

If the Law of Moses doesn't give us knowledge of what sin is, then how can it make us conscious of sin?

How can the Law of Moses can't make the whole world accountable to God if the whole world isn't under it?

Why did God want the Israelites to obey the Law of Moses if that wouldn't make them righteous before Him?

Do you think that the way to be right before God is through our disobedience to the Mosaic Law?

Do you think that God neglected to teach the Israelites how to become righteous?

Can you explain Luke 1:5-6 in light of your claim that the Law of Moses shows us that our thinking is wrong that we are right before God based on our obedience to it?

In Romans 3:21-22, it notably doesn't say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of being good enough, but rather the one and only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is though faith in Christ for all who believe, so that is not is not a way of becoming righteous that is an alternative to becoming righteous as the result of obedience to the Law of Moses.

It clouded our judgement by allowing us to rely on on understanding of good and evil rather, which leads to death, rather than leaning on God's understanding, which leads to life.

We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), so you don't seem to grasp that obeying the law well enough to get over the finish line has absolutely nothing to do with the way to become righteous. The one and only way to attain a character trait is through faith, but what it means to attain a character trait is to become a doer of works that embody that trait, so for example the only way to become courageous is through faith apart form being required to have first done enough courageous works in order to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness (1 John 3:4-7) and every other character trait. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31). In Romans 2:13, Paul affirmed that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to close to be doers of it other than in order to be good enough to earn it, namely faith. We become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses all at the same time and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not earn our righteousness as the result of our works.

While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19) and that he obeyed the command to offer Isaac because he believed God (Hebrews 11:17), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith, but not insofar as they were earning as a wage.

Likewise, we can't earn eternal life even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically required in order to experience to gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it as the result. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so again believing in Jesus is not an alternative to obeying God's commandments. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after their purpose was fulfilled would be missing the whole point of a tutor. The reason that the Law of Moses leads us to Christ is because it was given in order to teach us how to know him, not so that we can then reject everything that he taught and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness.

Most law-facing people I run into do not acknowledge they are law-breakers and do not express an appreciation for our need for forgiveness. I think it is because the need for forgiveness conflicts with the idea that rightness with God is through obeying the law.

 

[James456]

Most law-facing people I run into do not acknowledge they are law-breakers and do not express an appreciation for our need for forgiveness. I think it is because the need for forgiveness conflicts with the idea that rightness with God is through obeying the law.

That is very true.
And, I can only wonder, if many who emphasise the law of Moses/non moral law, do so for it can faultlessly be obeyed, as even the worst of sinners faultlessly obeyed it(Phil3:6) So, it makes them feel good about themselves, knowing there is so much law they can obey without error. But what do they do about the moral side of the law? For they will never faultlessly obey that.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

That is very true.
And, I can only wonder, if many who emphasise the law of Moses/non moral law, do so for it can faultlessly be obeyed, as even the worst of sinners faultlessly obeyed it(Phil3:6) So, it makes them feel good about themselves, knowing there is so much law they can obey without error. But what do they do about the moral side of the law? For they will never faultlessly obey that.

The thing that gets me is that when pressed, almost all people admit they are not sinlessly perfect. But when they admit this, they provide no explanation of how their law-facing point of view survives their admission of guilt. If forgiveness is needed to bridge the gap between sinless perfection and their performance, how can their performance be the reason for their rightness with God?

 

[Nedsk]

You ignored my scriptures, why? I responded to yours!

You make a claim that faith will always bring results. That's not the case

 

[Soyeong]

Most law-facing people I run into do not acknowledge they are law-breakers and do not express an appreciation for our need for forgiveness. I think it is because the need for forgiveness conflicts with the idea that rightness with God is through obeying the law.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and we all need forgiveness. We can't become right with God even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way to do that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. The only reason that someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully repent and have our sins forgiven.

The thing that gets me is that when pressed, almost all people admit they are not sinlessly perfect. But when they admit this, they provide no explanation of how their law-facing point of view survives their admission of guilt. If forgiveness is needed to bridge the gap between sinless perfection and their performance, how can their performance be the reason for their rightness with God?

I make no claim to be sinlessly perfect, but then again there has never been a need for me to be sinlessly perfect. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not been sinlessly perfect, so if I needed to be sinlessly perfect for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that I do not need to be sinlessly perfect. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the way to become right with God is through sinless perfection, but rather the only way to become right with God that is testified in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.

 

[Edward429451]

The thing that gets me is that when pressed, almost all people admit they are not sinlessly perfect. But when they admit this, they provide no explanation of how their law-facing point of view survives their admission of guilt. If forgiveness is needed to bridge the gap between sinless perfection and their performance, how can their performance be the reason for their rightness with God?

You are right! I never thought about that before, lo.