Faith or Law?

[Dino246]

the only way to become right with God that is testified in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.

You’re on the right track here...

What happens to a person who believes? What changes? What does Scripture tell us?

 

[Nedsk]

Well you should still give me your thoughts on it, I gave you mine on your verses. Why not have a go

Also Paul consistently refers to works of the law which have to be different than works otherwise james 2: 24 creates a major dilemma for your position.

 

[Soyeong]

That is very true.
And, I can only wonder, if many who emphasise the law of Moses/non moral law, do so for it can faultlessly be obeyed, as even the worst of sinners faultlessly obeyed it(Phil3:6) So, it makes them feel good about themselves, knowing there is so much law they can obey without error. But what do they do about the moral side of the law? For they will never faultlessly obey that.

In Philippians 3:6, it does not specify anything about the non-moral law, so it is good to be aware when you are reading things into a verse that it does not state, especially when you have no way to establish that Paul even considered that to be a category of law. It's not clear to me why you are acting like repentance is not a thing.

 

[Edward429451]

You make a claim that faith will always bring results. That's not the case

Yes it is the case as long as you are not holding back something in your heart or life from God. That's what the Lord does, it's in His job description lol.

One time I had company coming over and I went to put on a pot of coffee and I was out. I thought about praying because I was broke too, my slow season. Then I remembered the scripture, He knows our needs before we ask, do not worry about what you will eat or drink...so I thought, oh I don't have to pray about it, the Lord will provide. So I put it out of my mind and did not say that prayer.

Less than 30 minutes later there was a two pound bag of gourmet coffee knocking on my door! I instantly knew, that was the Lord. But He delivered some coffee to my house? I didn't say the prayer...OHH, I stood on faith in His Word to not worry about it. That was faith so He instantly responded!

See he gave my friend who was coming an unction to take Edward some coffee as a gift! I had not told my friend that I was out of coffee and when he got there and knocked when I opened the door he hands me the coffee and says Here I brought you this....(Praise the Lord !!) Yes sir Brother, the Lord does respond to faith. Every time. Just dont hold back.

That's about the coolest thing the Lord has done for me.

 

[Nedsk]

Yes it is the case as long as you are not holding back something in your heart or life from God. That's what the Lord does, it's in His job description lol.

One time I had company coming over and I went to put on a pot of coffee and I was out. I thought about praying because I was broke too, my slow season. Then I remembered the scripture, He knows our needs before we ask, do not worry about what you will eat or drink...so I thought, oh I don't have to pray about it, the Lord will provide. So I put it out of my mind and did not say that prayer.

Less than 30 minutes later there was a two pound bag of gourmet coffee knocking on my door! I instantly knew, that was the Lord. But He delivered some coffee to my house? I didn't say the prayer...OHH, I stood on faith in His Word to not worry about it. That was faith so He instantly responded!

See he gave my friend who was coming an unction to take Edward some coffee as a gift! I had not told my friend that I was out of coffee and when he got there and knocked when I opened the door he hands me the coffee and says Here I brought you this....(Praise the Lord !!) Yes sir Brother, the Lord does respond to faith. Every time. Just dont hold back.

That's about the coolest thing the Lord has done for me.

 

[James456]

You make a claim that faith will always bring results. That's not the case

As you refused to address one scripture of mine, though I addressed three of yours, debate is not possible under the circumstances

 

[James456]

Also Paul consistently refers to works of the law which have to be different than works otherwise james 2: 24 creates a major dilemma for your position.

I refer you to my previous post to you

 

[Nedsk]

This is the prosperity gospel which is not what I'm talking about. You didnt produce anything as a result of your faith. You didn't feed someone who was hungry, you didn't give a drink to someone who ewass thirsty or clothe someone, etc etc.

 

[Nedsk]

I refer you to my previous post to you

This is my point it's circular reasoning with you people. Paul and James are either talking about the same thing or they aren't.

 

[James456]

In Philippians 3:6, it does not specify anything about the non-moral law, so it is good to be aware when you are reading things into a verse that it does not state, especially when you have no way to establish that Paul even considered that to be a category of law. It's not clear to me why you are acting like repentance is not a thing.

Regarding legalistic righteousness, faultless Phil3:6 NIV 1984 edition
Discernment, and reading the bible as one cohesive whole make the verse clear. Paul said in the updated version of the NIV he was faultless as a Pharisee concerning the law, however, he could not be including the ten commandments in that statement for he stated in Rom7:7-11 he could not obey them!

 

[James456]

This is my point it's circular reasoning with you people. Paul and James are either talking about the same thing or they aren't.

My point is, you cannot address scriptures placed before you, so, in that circumstance, debate is not possible

 

[Edward429451]

This is the prosperity gospel which is not what I'm talking about. You didnt produce anything as a result of your faith. You didn't feed someone who was hungry, you didn't give a drink to someone who ewass thirsty or clothe someone, etc etc.

Oh it is not prosperity gospel. You can't have faith for a Lamborghini
and expect the Lord to deliver it ! That would be asking amiss, another kind of prayer unanswered and spiritually ignorant. But that's in scripture.

If you want to have enough faith for a Lambo, send me $1000 seed money and...Lol! That's how they got their Lambo.

You're wrong Brother.

 

[James456]

The thing that gets me is that when pressed, almost all people admit they are not sinlessly perfect. But when they admit this, they provide no explanation of how their law-facing point of view survives their admission of guilt. If forgiveness is needed to bridge the gap between sinless perfection and their performance, how can their performance be the reason for their rightness with God?

You've covered it very well indeed. They insist you must obey the law, without admitting alongside that they themselves transgress it, that has to be cajoled out of them. Some of them say it is easy to obey the law/ten commandments. In my view, such statements show a lack of understanding where the bar is set not commit sin.
Concerning your last point. Paul said if you rely on the law for justification you are under a curse, for you would have to do everything written in the book of the law to be justified, in other words, perfect obedience.(Gal3:10&11) That is why he states Law brings wrath in Rom4:15
So your performance according to the law can only bring rightness/righteousness by obeying it if you perfectly obey it.

 

[Gideon300]

That is very true.
And, I can only wonder, if many who emphasise the law of Moses/non moral law, do so for it can faultlessly be obeyed, as even the worst of sinners faultlessly obeyed it(Phil3:6) So, it makes them feel good about themselves, knowing there is so much law they can obey without error. But what do they do about the moral side of the law? For they will never faultlessly obey that.

No one has obeyed the first commandment - except Lord Jesus. I don't count Enoch because the Law was not given then.

 

[Gideon300]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and we all need forgiveness. We can't become right with God even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way to do that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. The only reason that someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully repent and have our sins forgiven.


I make no claim to be sinlessly perfect, but then again there has never been a need for me to be sinlessly perfect. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not been sinlessly perfect, so if I needed to be sinlessly perfect for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that I do not need to be sinlessly perfect. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the way to become right with God is through sinless perfection, but rather the only way to become right with God that is testified in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.

If only you stuck to that, you'd be fine. The problem is that you put grace under law. In God's view, I am a new creation in Christ. I died and my life is hidden in Christ with God. What demand are placed on a dead man? None. So all the righteous requirements of God are already met in Jesus. So I ask him to do the living in place of me. God never has a problem with his Son!

 

[Gideon300]

You make a claim that faith will always bring results. That's not the case

If faith does not bring results, it's not faith.

 

[Nedsk]

My point is, you cannot address scriptures placed before you, so, in that circumstance, debate is not possible

Oh but I did address it you just don't like how I addressed it. You have a problem if Paul and James are talking about the same things. You don't want to address it. I understand why.

 

[Nedsk]

Oh it is not prosperity gospel. You can't have faith for a Lamborghini
and expect the Lord to deliver it ! That would be asking amiss, another kind of prayer unanswered and spiritually ignorant. But that's in scripture.

If you want to have enough faith for a Lambo, send me $1000 seed money and...Lol! That's how they got their Lambo.

You're wrong Brother.

I'm spot on brother. What you described about getting coffee when you did have any has nothing to do with what I was talking about, but I've been around you folks for decades and I know that wont stop you from repeating yourself.

 

[Nedsk]

If faith does not bring results, it's not faith.

I agree but you assume the results (works) are caused by faith. That's completely incorrect

 

[Edward429451]

I'm spot on brother. What you described about getting coffee when you did have any has nothing to do with what I was talking about, but I've been around you folks for decades and I know that wont stop you from repeating yourself.

I didn't pray for the coffee...??