Faith proofing

[Jordon]

Faith proofing generally refers to the theological concept that true genuine faith in God will inevitably produce visible evidence, actions, or proofs in a person’s life. It is based on the premise that faith is not merely an inap intellectual belief but a living force that manifests through obedience to Gods instructions and good works.


I wonder since people take the road you can't know fully your saved and some take the decision, that to make such a discussion, you could be deluded, or prideful or even a fake or a coward, bla bla bla.

I wonder if they believe in faith proofing in some way

 

[Jordon]

Oh goodie, so is faith proofing a good thing, what's an example

 

[Dino246]

Faith proofing?

How about “proving faith”.

Faith is not a “living force” and by itself makes no change in the person. The Holy Spirit lives in the believer and changes him or her from the inside out. The change results in action which is proves the faith genuine.

 

[Jordon]

Faith proofing?

How about “proving faith”.

Faith is not a “living force” and by itself makes no change in the person. The Holy Spirit lives in the believer and changes him or her from the inside out. The change results in action which is proves the faith genuine.

I believe proving faith is probably the same thing to, faith proofing to some, but maybe not to others, from the person inner convictions in either direction.

I would say proving faith is the same as proof faithing

 

[Jordon]

Is hope a living force

 

[Dino246]

Is hope a living force

No.

A “living force” is a fantasy concept and has no biblical basis. Such a thing would operate independently of its host and with its own volition.

In the real world, there are sentient beings, both physical and non-physical, but no impersonal non-physical “forces”.

If there were, then sin could be blamed on them.

 

[Jordon]

No.

A “living force” is a fantasy concept and has no biblical basis. Such a thing would operate independently of its host and with its own volition.

In the real world, there are sentient beings, both physical and non-physical, but no impersonal non-physical “forces”.

If there were, then sin could be blamed on them.

Of course it's best not to go of track when taking into account thelogical discussion, it's best to remember that theolgy can be understood to mean, to question the questions that come out of the bible, like this one

Based on 1 Peter 1:3-5, Christians are born again into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, providing an imperishable, heavenly inheritance. This hope, rooted in God's mercy, serves as a secure anchor during present trials, offering joy and guarding believers through faith until salvation is fully revealed.

On this bases is there any force to hope

 

[Watchman22]

Faith proofing generally refers to the theological concept that true genuine faith in God will inevitably produce visible evidence, actions, or proofs in a person’s life. It is based on the premise that faith is not merely an inap intellectual belief but a living force that manifests through obedience to Gods instructions and good works.


I wonder since people take the road you can't know fully your saved and some take the decision, that to make such a discussion, you could be deluded, or prideful or even a fake or a coward, bla bla bla.

I wonder if they believe in faith proofing in some way

What visible evidence would you be looking for?

And really, the O word?

An occasional act of Obedience is an inevitable accompaniment of His spirit dwelling in us. Not Obedience first, His spirit second.

 

[Jordon]

What visible evidence would you be looking for?

And really, the O word?

An occasional act of Obedience is an inevitable accompaniment of His spirit dwelling in us. Not Obedience first, His spirit second.

Hi watcher it's a been a while

I was hoping you would join the discussion

I wondered if the force of that hope would reach you, within this message, believing that a message can be alive and active

The question is.

Is obedience seen as a natural consequence of faith after christ as much before Christ, or can obedience be seen as a result of something else before Christ, and what could that something else be in a thelogical sense before Christ, and could the something else thelogical sense be used after Christ to.

 

[Watchman22]

Hi watcher it's a been a while

I was hoping you would join the discussion

I wondered if the force of that hope would reach you, within this message, believing that a message can be alive and active

The question is.

Is obedience seen as a natural consequence of faith after christ as much before Christ, or can obedience be seen as a result of something else before Christ, and what could that something else be in a thelogical sense before Christ, and could the something else thelogical sense be used after Christ to.

Lol, its only been a few days. There was something flying around the house, that must have been hope.

Obedience, theologically, has to be understood from this perspective.
Obedience is only obedience if we never disobey. In other words, if I'm trying to keep the commandments, and I break one, I'm guilty of breaking them all. If i only have the thought or desire to break one of the commandments, for just a millisecond, I'm guilty of them all., and am seen by God as disobedient.

Thats what so amazing about Jesus, the thought of sin never even entered His mind, not even for a millisecond, ever!

So if we actually fufill an act of obedience "before" we have His spirit, I would call it luck. But because we weren't continually obedient in actions and thought, we're still seen as disobedient.

Now when we are responding to the call of the Father with faith, with a continually surrendered life, that surrender has been tried and tested. If we are the one good soil, he inputs the grace deposit ( Holy spirit) which sanctifies us ( separated from our sinful nature's) and justifies us ( seen as just like Christ. ) when we are in this state we are seen as obedient because we've been justified ( seen as just like Christ). In this state the disobedient acts we commit are not ours disobedient acts, but the disobedient acts of our sinful nature that we have been separated from. Paul said, it's not me doing it but sin dwelling in me doing it. We are still teathered to it.

So any obedient acts that may happen after we receive His spirit isn't us doing it, but the spirit of Christ doing it.

 

[biblestudent78]

This question drives at the religious underbelly of Luther and Calvin but not of Jesus and his brother and leader of the early church, James.

Under the "Standard Protestant Model" we can never be sure we are saved. Over the centuries, "believers" have contributed to the most heinous crimes in history. On the other hand those committed to faithful obedience have and entirely different historic path. When Christian believers led attacks on Jews, atheists, witches, pagans and natives, Christian disciples were there delivering the Love of God often at the expense of their lives.

The Standard Protest Model conflates mere belief in a series of rigid dogmas that must be "believed." They have often burned people at the stake for failure to comply with their "model."

The single biggest fallacy of the Standard Protestant Model is that humans are bifurcated into "Spirit" which equates to what you mentally ascribe to and the real person who has a body, passions, hormones and who judge other not what they claim to believe but what their faith compels them to do and thus how they live.

In the Standard Protestant Model, you go to God for forgiveness of the pain, sin and suffering you commit on others. Thus you stand justified and forgiven of all the sins of hate, animosity and damage you do to others because you have a get out of hell card arising from you agreement with a 60 second pulpit prayer. You need no conversion. You need no repentance. You do not need or accept the inconvenience of being born again, your belief in your mind is all you need. God loves a sinner and that works just fine. In the Standard Protestant Model you can be "saved" and absolutely nobody in your life could detect the difference. It's kinda like going through a carwash once and you are clean forever no matter how dirty you become a day later.

I stand opposed the concept that Christianity is a secret state of mind in which you are always justified because you believe you are.

I believe Christianity is a life change. At your "conversion" if those who know you best ask you, "what happened to you?" It means you have accepted your rejection of your old life and exchanged it for a new life as a follower of Christ, not just a "believer." When your life is a living example of bypassing every wounded and hurting human being knowing your faith will save you while those God sent to you bleed and suffer, that definition of "faith" may not save you. If you doubt my contention, read Matthew 25....the entire chapter then tell me why Luther was right that we can not and must not get messed up in doing "works."

Life itself tells us, if your path does not change, you have not changed. You have not accepted justification by faith. You have accepted justification without cost or change....even the devils believe. Biblical faith is what you do, not what you claim.

 

[Blain]

I think if one has genuine faith then yes it would have proof of some kind merely in the words we speak show the state and condition of our hearts so in this way alone one could know the proof

 

[Watchman22]

I think if one has genuine faith then yes it would have proof of some kind merely in the words we speak show the state and condition of our hearts so in this way alone one could know the proof

I agree.
But I've always struggled with the premise our changed life or new life has to be seen and understood by the unregenerate. If that makes any sense.

 

[Watchman22]

This question drives at the religious underbelly of Luther and Calvin but not of Jesus and his brother and leader of the early church, James.

Under the "Standard Protestant Model" we can never be sure we are saved. Over the centuries, "believers" have contributed to the most heinous crimes in history. On the other hand those committed to faithful obedience have and entirely different historic path. When Christian believers led attacks on Jews, atheists, witches, pagans and natives, Christian disciples were there delivering the Love of God often at the expense of their lives.

The Standard Protest Model conflates mere belief in a series of rigid dogmas that must be "believed." They have often burned people at the stake for failure to comply with their "model."

The single biggest fallacy of the Standard Protestant Model is that humans are bifurcated into "Spirit" which equates to what you mentally ascribe to and the real person who has a body, passions, hormones and who judge other not what they claim to believe but what their faith compels them to do and thus how they live.

In the Standard Protestant Model, you go to God for forgiveness of the pain, sin and suffering you commit on others. Thus you stand justified and forgiven of all the sins of hate, animosity and damage you do to others because you have a get out of hell card arising from you agreement with a 60 second pulpit prayer. You need no conversion. You need no repentance. You do not need or accept the inconvenience of being born again, your belief in your mind is all you need. God loves a sinner and that works just fine. In the Standard Protestant Model you can be "saved" and absolutely nobody in your life could detect the difference. It's kinda like going through a carwash once and you are clean forever no matter how dirty you become a day later.

I stand opposed the concept that Christianity is a secret state of mind in which you are always justified because you believe you are.

I believe Christianity is a life change. At your "conversion" if those who know you best ask you, "what happened to you?" It means you have accepted your rejection of your old life and exchanged it for a new life as a follower of Christ, not just a "believer." When your life is a living example of bypassing every wounded and hurting human being knowing your faith will save you while those God sent to you bleed and suffer, that definition of "faith" may not save you. If you doubt my contention, read Matthew 25....the entire chapter then tell me why Luther was right that we can not and must not get messed up in doing "works."

Life itself tells us, if your path does not change, you have not changed. You have not accepted justification by faith. You have accepted justification without cost or change....even the devils believe. Biblical faith is what you do, not what you claim.

Biblical faith , applied, is pisteuo in the Greek.
Pisteuo is a verb, an action word. It's an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.

The act, is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
Based upon a belief, that God will accept the surrendered life.
Sustained by confidenc, acts that support the fact we really do consider our lives to be His now, not ours.

That is Biblical NT saving faith, and it's not only something we do, it's something that's mandatory we must do. The precondition.

But I understand it as more of a response to the call, not an obedient act.

 

[Blain]

I agree.
But I've always struggled with the premise our changed life or new life has to be seen and understood by the unregenerate. If that makes any sense.

Yes that makes sense and honestly we ave to consider who the proof is actually for and what the word of God says about it. I never saw a verse that says the proof is for unbelievers or the unregenerated

 

[faithlife]

Matthew 21:21: "...if you have faith and do not doubt... you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done'. Heb 11, the Hall of Faithers

 

[Watchman22]

Matthew 21:21: "...if you have faith and do not doubt... you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done'. Heb 11, the Hall of Faithers

That word doubt is diakrino in the Greek , and means to waver, hesitate.

 

[Dino246]

Of course it's best not to go of track when taking into account thelogical discussion, it's best to remember that theolgy can be understood to mean, to question the questions that come out of the bible, like this one

Based on 1 Peter 1:3-5, Christians are born again into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, providing an imperishable, heavenly inheritance. This hope, rooted in God's mercy, serves as a secure anchor during present trials, offering joy and guarding believers through faith until salvation is fully revealed.

On this bases is there any force to hope

While this verse certainly seems to suggest that "living hope" is a "living force", the verse speaks about a hope that is placed in something real and reliable, the finished work of Jesus Christ. It's "living" in the sense that its object is alive and working in us. When we don't see evidence of resurrection, we continue to hold hope, and rightly so, for God does not abandon those who hope in Him.

 

[Watchman22]

Lol, its only been a few days. There was something flying around the house, that must have been hope.

Obedience, theologically, has to be understood from this perspective.
Obedience is only obedience if we never disobey. In other words, if I'm trying to keep the commandments, and I break one, I'm guilty of breaking them all. If i only have the thought or desire to break one of the commandments, for just a millisecond, I'm guilty of them all., and am seen by God as disobedient.

Thats what so amazing about Jesus, the thought of sin never even entered His mind, not even for a millisecond, ever!

So if we actually fufill an act of obedience "before" we have His spirit, I would call it luck. But because we weren't continually obedient in actions and thought, we're still seen as disobedient.

Now when we are responding to the call of the Father with faith, with a continually surrendered life, that surrender has been tried and tested. If we are the one good soil, he inputs the grace deposit ( Holy spirit) which sanctifies us ( separated from our sinful nature's) and justifies us ( seen as just like Christ. ) when we are in this state we are seen as obedient because we've been justified ( seen as just like Christ). In this state the disobedient acts we commit are not ours disobedient acts, but the disobedient acts of our sinful nature that we have been separated from. Paul said, it's not me doing it but sin dwelling in me doing it. We are still teathered to it.

So any obedient acts that may happen after we receive His spirit isn't us doing it, but the spirit of Christ doing it.

It's not like you to disappear Jordan. What happened?

Did you think this reply was going to prove to me that I'm Catholic?

I hope we can finally put that to bed, what do you think?

 

[Jordon]

It's not like you to disappear Jordan. What happened?

Did you think this reply was going to prove to me that I'm Catholic?

I hope we can finally put that to bed, what do you think?

sorry lol, I've got my head in taking on board other stuff.

I have a motto that I have to take your post on, and take it to my heart before answering, which I will do,

Right now I have to drive.