Rediscovering pisteuo.

[Deuteronomy]

OK Deuteronomy let's get to the point your trying to make.

Hello again Jay, if you are referring to the post of mine that you just quoted above (Post #77), the point that I was quickly laboring to make to you there is that Satan and his demons have not "surrendered" to God (as you seem to believe that they have). Rather, they are both presently and continually engaged in rebellion against God (not surrender) which, w/o horns (so to speak) is to say that they continually are at war with Him, His angels and His children. The Bible makes it clear that they will never "surrender" but that they will, instead, be stopped, judged, condemned and punished forever ~because~ of their refusal to surrender to Him!

One of the primary/overall points that I've been attempting to make here is that the Greek word (transliterated as) pisteuo has MANY different meanings, both Biblically and extra-Biblically too, and that James 2:14-26 seems to be a great passage to use to for such a discussion (since the point James labors to make there is that there are, indeed, different "kinds/types" of faith/pisteuo .. two in particular in this case .. a 'lively' type that both leads to salvation and results in everything that accompanies it, as well as a 'dead', lifeless faith (the kind of faith that both demons and CINO* have) that leads to well, nothing).

*CINO = Christian In Name Only .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23.​

​

~Deuteronomy

 

[Watchman22]

Hello again Jay, if you are referring to the post of mine that you just quoted above (Post #77), the point that I was quickly laboring to make to you there is that Satan and his demons have not "surrendered" to God (as you seem to believe that they have). Rather, they are both presently and continually engaged in rebellion against God (not surrender) which, w/o horns (so to speak) is to say that they continually are at war with Him, His angels and His children. The Bible makes it clear that they will never "surrender" but that they will, instead, be stopped, judged, condemned and punished forever ~because~ of their refusal to surrender to Him!

One of the primary/overall points that I've been attempting to make here is that the Greek word (transliterated as) pisteuo has MANY different meanings, both Biblically and extra-Biblically too, and that James 2:14-26 seems to be a great passage to use to for such a discussion (since the point James labors to make there is that there are, indeed, different "kinds/types" of faith/pisteuo .. two in particular in this case .. a 'lively' type that both leads to salvation and results in everything that accompanies it, as well as a 'dead', lifeless faith (the kind of faith that both demons and CINO* have) that leads to well, nothing).

*CINO = Christian In Name Only .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23.​

​

~Deuteronomy

OK, you said that there are different kinds of pisteuo, two that lead to salvation, what are they?

 

[rogerg]

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

How can salvation be by grace if the faith required to obtain grace must first come from the one who is to receive grace?

 

[Watchman22]

How can salvation be by grace if the faith required to obtain grace must first come from the one who is to receive grace?

Grace came first, our correct response to that unmerited favor comes second.

 

[rogerg]

Grace came first, our correct response to that unmerited favor comes second.

But isn't grace, alone and of itself, the end result? If we have to do anything to effectuate grace, then is it really grace?

 

[Watchman22]

But isn't grace, alone and of itself, the end result? If we have to do anything to effectuate grace, then is it really grace?

Grace is the completed work Jesus did throughout His life, death, and resurrection. He paid the price to remove the barrier between mankind and God. This work is completed, finished, nothing needs to be added to that free gift, that unmerited favor.

Salvation is by Grace "through faith". That "through Faith" part of that passage is our response to that unmerited favor. It's not an addition to what Christs finished work, it's a response to it. The correct response as per Gods word and the Vines Greek dictionary is, 1) a firm conviction 2) a personal surrender to Him 3) a conduct inspired by such surrender.

So the answer to your question , the gift of Grace by itself provides the door to Salvation that previously wasn't available to us, that's what Jesus did. We as our part or a precondition, need to open that door and walk through it. We do that by continually surrendering ourselves lives to Him.

He's looking for those who willingly choose to walk through that door.

 

[rogerg]

Salvation is by Grace "through faith". That "through Faith" part of that passage is our response to that unmerited favor. It's not an addition to what Christs finished work, it's a response to it. The correct response as per Gods word and the Vines Greek dictionary is, 1) a firm conviction 2) a personal surrender to Him 3) a conduct inspired by such surrender.

So the answer to your question , the gift of Grace by itself provides the door to Salvation that previously wasn't available to us, that's what Jesus did. We as our part or a precondition, need to open that door and walk through it. We do that by continually surrendering ourselves lives to Him.

He's looking for those who willingly choose to walk through that door.

I would suggest that grace is its own means and ends, and when given, is given completely in fullness and effect.
Therefore, I think that instead of faith being a means by which someone acquires grace unto themselves, that "through faith" is the means by which grace itself came into being and a possibility. As such, I think the faith in view (by that phrase) is actually Christ's faith not man's faith.
I think this is seen in Eph 2:5, where we are informed that until we become spiritually made alive by God, we are dead in sin, and as spiritually dead, unable to comprehend things spiritual in order to even have true faith.
So, if the faith is Christ's faith, then the "grace through faith" is completely consistent with, and supportive of, salvation as completely the gift of God, otherwise the "that not of yourselves; (it is) the gift of God" part of the verse, simply wouldn't be correct, because salvation wouldn't be the gift solely of God, we would have to play a part in it.

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[Watchman22]

I would suggest that grace is its own means and ends, and when given, is given completely in fullness and effect.
Therefore, I think that instead of faith being a means by which someone acquires grace unto themselves, that "through faith" is the means by which grace itself came into being and a possibility. As such, I think the faith in view (by that phrase) is actually Christ's faith not man's faith.
I think this is seen in Eph 2:5, where we are informed that until we become spiritually made alive by God, we are dead in sin, and as spiritually dead, unable to comprehend things spiritual in order to even have true faith.
So, if the faith is Christ's faith, then the "grace through faith" is completely consistent with, and supportive of, salvation as completely the gift of God, otherwise the "that not of yourselves; (it is) the gift of God" part of the verse, simply wouldn't be correct, because salvation wouldn't be the gift solely of God, we would have to play a part in it.

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The only problem with that is pistis is used (English word for faith) 245 times in the NT, and pisteuo ( the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing) the application of pistis is used an additional 248 times. That 503 times faith and faithing are used are not talking about the faith and faithing of Christ, but the Faith and faithing of the called out ones.

 

[Watchman22]

I would suggest that grace is its own means and ends, and when given, is given completely in fullness and effect.
Therefore, I think that instead of faith being a means by which someone acquires grace unto themselves, that "through faith" is the means by which grace itself came into being and a possibility. As such, I think the faith in view (by that phrase) is actually Christ's faith not man's faith.
I think this is seen in Eph 2:5, where we are informed that until we become spiritually made alive by God, we are dead in sin, and as spiritually dead, unable to comprehend things spiritual in order to even have true faith.
So, if the faith is Christ's faith, then the "grace through faith" is completely consistent with, and supportive of, salvation as completely the gift of God, otherwise the "that not of yourselves; (it is) the gift of God" part of the verse, simply wouldn't be correct, because salvation wouldn't be the gift solely of God, we would have to play a part in it.

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

When God repeats Himself, pay extra attention.

 

[rogerg]

When God repeats Himself, pay extra attention.

Sorry, Watchman22, lost me with that

 

[rogerg]

The only problem with that is pistis is used (English word for faith) 245 times in the NT, and pisteuo ( the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing) the application of pistis is used an additional 248 times. That 503 times faith and faithing are used are not talking about the faith and faithing of Christ, but the Faith and faithing of the called out ones.

Seems to me the context of the verses of Eph 2, inform us of the intended meaning.

 

[Watchman22]

I would suggest that grace is its own means and ends, and when given, is given completely in fullness and effect.
Therefore, I think that instead of faith being a means by which someone acquires grace unto themselves, that "through faith" is the means by which grace itself came into being and a possibility. As such, I think the faith in view (by that phrase) is actually Christ's faith not man's faith.
I think this is seen in Eph 2:5, where we are informed that until we becom
e spiritually made alive by God, we are dead in sin, and as spiritually dead, unable to comprehend things spiritual in order to even have true faith.
So, if the faith is Christ's faith, then the "grace through faith" is completely consistent with, and supportive of, salvation as completely the gift of God, otherwise the "that not of yourselves; (it is) the gift of God" part of the verse, simply wouldn't be correct, because salvation wouldn't be the gift solely of God, we would have to play a part in it.

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Sorry, Watchman22, lost me with that

Faith or pistis = 245 times.
Pisteuo = 248 times.

 

[rogerg]

Faith or pistis = 245 times.
Pisteuo = 248 times.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. As I said in my prior post, I think the context of the verses of Eph 2, establishes the intended meaning of 2:8, because the "For", of 2:8 makes it a continuation of the preceding verses - it isn't a verse that should be understood as being standalone

 

[Watchman22]

Seems to me the context of the verses of Eph 2, inform us of the intended meaning.

Christ is the first goer of Faith, we are to follow.

Here is something that might help.

The English language tends to limit Faith to the mind, to belief, to the emotions, and confidence or trust. And it leaves the "will" to another word which is "obedience". The English language thus sets free Faith from works, the Greek did not allow that. You didn't have "pistis" (faith) until you added thee will and hung your life in continuing action on what the mind believed and what the heart had confidence in. It was an expression of the "whole man."

 

[rogerg]

Christ is the first goer of Faith, we are to follow.

Here is something that might help.

The English language tends to limit Faith to the mind, to belief, to the emotions, and confidence or trust. And it leaves the "will" to another word which is "obedience". The English language thus sets free Faith from works, the Greek did not allow that. You didn't have "pistis" (faith) until you added thee will and hung your life in continuing action on what the mind believed and what the heart had confidence in. It was an expression of the "whole man."

I probably wasn't as clear as I might have been. I was trying to say the faith in view is Christ's faith which was manifested in/by His obedience and allegiance to the Father's salvation plan, through which faith, Christ willingly gave Himself as an offering, sacrifice and to suffer death - all of which were required in order to bring the Father's plan to fruition, hence, the 'through faith" of Eph 2:8. His faith - Christ's faith - along with His righteousness, then becomes imputed via the Holy Spirit to those whom He saves.

 

[Watchman22]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. As I said in my prior post, I think the context of the verses of Eph 2, establishes the intended meaning of 2:8, because the "For", of 2:8 makes it a continuation of the preceding verses - it isn't a verse that should be understood as being standalone

Eph. 2: 4-10 is about the new condition, verses the old condition in 1-3.

The word Faith in the 8th verse is the noun pistis, which means conviction, reliance upon, be committed unto.

So if you read the verse with those definitions in mind.
"Eph. 2:8 For by unmerited favor you have been saved through conviction and reliance on Him, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of the supreme deity. "

It's not highlighting Jesus there, it's highlighting us.

But you brought up a legit question.

 

[Watchman22]

I probably wasn't as clear as I might have been. I was trying to say the faith in view is Christ faith which was manifested in/by His obedience and allegiance to the Father's salvation plan, through which faith, Christ willingly gave Himself as an offering, sacrifice and to suffer death - all of which were required in order to bring the Father's plan to fruition, hence, the 'through faith" of Eph 2:8. His faith - Christ's faith - along with His righteousness, then becomes imputed via the Holy Spirit to those whom He saves.

But it's talking about salvation.
Jesus doesn't need salvation.

 

[Watchman22]

I probably wasn't as clear as I might have been. I was trying to say the faith in view is Christ's faith which was manifested in/by His obedience and allegiance to the Father's salvation plan, through which faith, Christ willingly gave Himself as an offering, sacrifice and to suffer death - all of which were required in order to bring the Father's plan to fruition, hence, the 'through faith" of Eph 2:8. His faith - Christ's faith - along with His righteousness, then becomes imputed via the Holy Spirit to those whom He saves.

The Faith of Christ plays apart in everything though. Even if it's paradoxically.

 

[rogerg]

But it's talking about salvation.
Jesus doesn't need salvation.

Correct, but it is taking about the basis of how salvation became possible.

 

[lrs68]

Grace is the completed work Jesus did throughout His life, death, and resurrection. He paid the price to remove the barrier between mankind and God. This work is completed, finished, nothing needs to be added to that free gift, that unmerited favor.

Salvation is by Grace "through faith". That "through Faith" part of that passage is our response to that unmerited favor. It's not an addition to what Christs finished work, it's a response to it. The correct response as per Gods word and the Vines Greek dictionary is, 1) a firm conviction 2) a personal surrender to Him 3) a conduct inspired by such surrender.

So the answer to your question , the gift of Grace by itself provides the door to Salvation that previously wasn't available to us, that's what Jesus did. We as our part or a precondition, need to open that door and walk through it. We do that by continually surrendering ourselves lives to Him.

He's looking for those who willingly choose to walk through that door.

Indeed, Grace opened the Door to Salvation.

Grace doesn't make the person walk through the open Door.