Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

GWH said:


They should be insecure since a God who hates the nonelect might very well trick them into thinking they are elect.

Maybe the demon gods you worship would do such a thing...but a Holy, Righteous and Good God would?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The word if doesn't help you, the word if also means whether, meaning whether in a saved or lost condition. Men are going to be in one or the other when they hear the Gospel. So your if argument is a strawman to deny the truth. So dont tell folk to show you scripture in a debate, because when they do, you find a way to deny it.

"when they hear the Gospel" ... iow ... when the gospel is revealed to them ... in which case it is no longer "hid".

At that point, a person either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness:

Romans 1:15-19

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Belief in the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation receives the benefit of the promise. God is faithful.

The one who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness receives the consequence of having rejected.

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[lrs68]

False, its the word εἰ

Conditional Particle or Conjunction

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

b. but though, but even if,

1. if, whether

εἰ ei, i; a primary particle of conditionality; if, whether, that, etc.:—forasmuch as, if, that, (al-)though, whether.

The verse can also read:

3 But though our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Lol, none of those are definitions for the word IF hahahahaha

 

[Rufus]

So your saying God raises unbelievers from the dead? Interesting, don't recall that ever being the case in my Bible.

ps. except of course at the Great White Throne judgement but they all end up in the l.o.f. not raised to life.

Yeah...that's what I'm saying. He raises spiritually DEAD unbelievers in Adam from the dead whom God chose in eternity to be his sons and daughters so that they can believe! Do you doubt this truth?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

only God can open the eyes of the blind,

People flee from the light because the light exposes there deeds.

So in essence even the unbeliever sees the light of God exposing there deeds, and in essence it's the same light às the gospel, but the light of the lord which is the light of the gospel remains hidden because they serve a different master when they flee from the light exposing there deeds

If people flee from the light, they see the light.

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[Rufus]

Show me where it says common grace and where it says saving grace and I will show you where it says grace and more grace.

Grace is far more than being kind. Grace is real power in action doing stuff we cannot even imagine yet the whole world is a recipient of grace whether they know it or not. As Paul quoted to the Athenians, "for in Him we live and move and have our being" Acts17:28 That is grace in action and that requires real power. For what does Paul say is the first thing we learn about God? That He is eternal power. Rom.1:20

Foreknowledge is God seeing Himself in relationship with certain people. Who does God relate to? Believers or unbelievers?

The Incarnation can explain why God did not see those who would reject Him at the time of creating in order to not show favourtism. All things being created through, for and by the Word and we see Jesus able to live without knowing things, means the Lord God could have restricted His own knowing at the time He created all men so as to not seem biased in His creating.

One of the reasons you might leave the fish there is to teach men how powerful hate can be in destroying relationships.

Even so, just because we do not fully understand why God allowed evil into this world knowing full well the damage that it would cause, does not mean we get determine His motives for doing what He does or doesn't do.

On what basis would God show this "favourtism" [sic], since all have sinned, and there's none righteous?

And give me a chapter and verse that says that God almighty suspends his attributes, such as his omniscience. He certainly didn't suspend in Rom 8:28-30, did He? Ask any of your fellow comrades.

 

[Rufus]

In the Greek "if" has very specific meanings according to grammar and syntax. This is why we need teachers who study the ancient languages so these nuances are brought forth for us.

And your lame interpretation of "if" doesn't fit the context of the passage.

Funny how there is no command in the bible whatsoever that requires any of God's people to study and know the original languages if they want to understand God's eternal, flawless Word. God screwed up big time, heh? Maybe Jesus should have talked about the THREE greatest commandments of all time.

 

[Genez]

his word burns people hearts you where shown that only 2 days ago

Jordon... you do not know.
That you do not know.... what you are talking about.

You live in too much wishful fantasy, thinking God honors it as faith.

 

[Jordon]

as did you with this post ... ad hominem fallacy is not a good look for you. I prefer the pic attached to your moniker.

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he did create logically a fallacy tho, you should read his posts, so your not taking magentas concerns on board here, it's one thing to have your own disagreement with her, but it's another to find fault in her, for other people's actions, this has to stop, she's a good Christian, and you've just said you don't support another crew here but here you are supporting there madness and finding fault in magenta for it.

And the reason I was showing concern for your opening post was, where you not reasoning that abrahams faith was counted as righteousness unto him later on in this thread ? , when quite clearly genessis states the lords faith was planted in him,

So your opening post of this thread could be grounded upon on an untruth,

 

[Rufus]

That doesn't even make sense for if you reject grace you remain dead. How does that make a man's will efficacious?

Wasn't the will of all those who accepted the gospel efficacious?

 

[Genez]

Its death in sin. Its of a spiritual nature

Spiritual death is the consequence of sinning.
Adam ate and instantly died spiritually.
Yet, Adam remained being physically alive!

As a result of spiritual death?
Man became doomed to eventually die physically.

 

[Genez]

And when the Son raises the dead from their spiritual tombs to empower them to believe in Him, just remember your "freewill" had nothing to do with it, anymore than Lazarus' will had to do with his resurrection.

Are those people who believe in Jesus Christ, who believe we have free will? Saved?

 

[Jordon]

If people flee from the light, they see the light.

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that's what I said, ? But they don't see the light of the gospel the saving light

 

[Rufus]

Because God promised to save believers, He didn't promise to raise people from the dead so that they can believe. If that was all it took, then why not raise all people? After all, He takes no pleasure in death, He doesn't want to see people lost. Being alive to God is no guarantee of believing the word of God, just ask Adam. We must believe Him in and of ourselves. Grace enables us to be free to believe, it doesn't enable us to believe. Free like Adam who chose to not believe and free like Christ who chose to believe.

As far as I am concerned your ideology simply swaps one master of bondage for another master of bondage and that is not who God is.

Then you believe in the efficacy of man's will.

And Adam was not like his fallen progeny. Adam came into this world as a "very good" being -- one in a state of innocence, therefore, his will was not in bondage to a sinful nature or evil heart.

God never intended to save all people. That's why He doesn't raise all.

 

[Rufus]

Are those people who believe in Jesus Christ, who believe we have free will? Saved?

That would depend on the relative strength of the TWO beliefs. Those who believe in "free will" might love that idol more than they love Jesus Christ.

 

[cv5]

only God can open the eyes of the blind,

People flee from the light because the light exposes there deeds.

So in essence even the unbeliever sees the light of God exposing there deeds, and in essence it's the same light às the gospel, but the light of the lord which is the light of the gospel remains hidden because they serve a different master when they flee from the light exposing there deeds

I have to disclose the fact that I happen to be exceedingly "choosy" about whom I regard highly enough to endow with my trust, wherewith they may gain access to my time and attention in order to teach me accurately, rightly and properly the truths of the Bible.

I certainly cannot give the perpetually flunking-out, striking-out Calvinists around here a pass. They are allergic to lexicons, concordances, deep dive studies in context.........pretty much anything that would put a dent into their dogma or expose their failings.

[1Ki 12:31 KJV] 31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.

[1Ki 13:33 KJV] 33 After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became [one] of the priests of the high places.

[2Ki 17:32 KJV] 32 So they feared the LORD, and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests of the high places, which sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places.

 

[GWH]

Yes, you are indeed guilty, for you contradict God's Word. There are several explicit scriptures that teach specifically who God loves. Find me one that says God loves the wicked.

Also, if you feel up to the task... -- reconcile your simple-minded, man-exalting theology with these two passages: Prov 11:1 and Prov 11:20.

Romans 5:6-8

 

[Jordon]

I certainly cannot give the perpetually flunking-out, striking-out Calvinists around here a pass. They are allergic to lexicons, concordances, deep dive studies in context.........pretty much anything that would put a dent into their dogma or expose their failings.

[1Ki 12:31 KJV] 31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.

this is also telling you he can make priests out of the Calvies to .

But also this should tell you he makes people beleive with his irresistible grace

 

[Genez]

That would depend on the relative strength of the TWO beliefs. Those who believe in "free will" might love that idol more than they love Jesus Christ.

That is not an answer, and shows you can not concentrate on what was revealed in the question.

Here it is again:

Are those people who believe in Jesus Christ, who believe we have free will? Saved?

They believed in Jesus Christ
Not saved?

Here is what Scripture says...

Acts 16:30-31​

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He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”​

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They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”​

Note...
It does not say.

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and that you have no free will, and you will be saved—you and your household.”​

Are they saved?
They simply believed in Jesus Christ.

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”​

Not saved, if they later on thought that they have free will?

How could they not be saved, if they did what was needed to be saved?

it is lunacy....

 

[Genez]

"In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps." Proverbs 16:9 Tim Keller does the best sermon on the topic I've ever heard. It's very deep, but very thought provoking and very God-affirming. Check it out.:

Check it out.

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Psalm 37:4​

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Delight yourself also in the Lord,​

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.​

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If you delight in the Lord?
He will give you the desire to desire in your heart, for the right things He will give you.