Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

Good reply! Also, "if" has multiple meanings, such as "allowing that", "in the event that", etc.

In the Greek "if" has very specific meanings according to grammar and syntax. This is why we need teachers who study the ancient languages so these nuances are brought forth for us.

 

[Jordon]

Only the Reformed claim God would hide the Gospel on purpose.

That one hec of statement, can you back that up ?

 

[sawdust]

Oh, but it is once you categorically reject the efficacy of grace's power. At that point, then, the only other component that could be credited with efficacy is man's "freewill".

That doesn't even make sense for if you reject grace you remain dead. How does that make a man's will efficacious?

 

[Rufus]

"Mongo only pawn in game of life" .
-Mongo

Is that what you are trying to say?
Sorry, but Christians do not grovel before vain Augustinian philosophy. We leave that to the hapless Calvinists while we revel in the freedom gifted to us by Christ Jesus.

FWers just grovel before their Piled High 'n' Dry hoidy toidy, elite bible "scholars", who of course are as innocent as the driven snow and would never let their personal presuppositions taint their understanding of scripture; for they are so far above that kind of fray.

 

[Rufus]

That doesn't even make sense for if you reject grace you remain dead. How does that make a man's will efficacious?

Since when did you come to believe that spiritual death = spiritual inability?

 

[Magenta]

That one heck of statement, can you back that up ?

My Bible says it is the god of this world (or age) that has blinded unbelievers. However, God has
rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son.

Colossians 1 verse 13 ~ He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son.

 

[Rufus]

But nowhere did Paul say it most definitely is VEILED.

It only says if it is.

How do you make it become something when God makes it means it doesn't mean the same thing?

So, the BLIND can really see?

 

[Jordon]

!!!!!!!! I paint the following picture:

As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements.

First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Seven Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4, which might be deemed the “7 pearls”. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies: those who are ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, John 8:42-44).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.”

Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (Heb. 12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15 Rev. 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will (such as Joshua 6:17-24, 8:2&24 & 10:28-40, 11:6-23), then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.

The justice of God is a source of comfort and joy to those who have decided to accept His loving Lordship, but it is experienced as judgment or wrath by those who rebel against Him (Isa. 13:13, Rom. 1:18, Rev. 19:11). The fire that warms (purifies) also burns (punishes). Stating God’s requirement for salvation negatively: a person would do well (be wise) not to reject Him in order not to experience the miserable but just consequence (John 3:17-18). Just consequences teach good behavior.

you saying things people are doing, which there not, then instead of owning up to your false assertions, you then quote a load of scripture to justify your actions, and you never once own up, what your doing is using scripture to condem people with for no apparent reason that I can see,

For those in Christ there is no condemnation that you can bring, as people in Christ will only be convicted, only you don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two.


I asked you a simple question, which comes first in an unbeliver, Gods enabling grace or an Unbelievers own belief in God.

Is it at all possible you can answer this straight forward question, before laying down a thousand rabbit trails, which then enables two sides having a firm footing on which to debate about, before you start your next barrage.

 

[Rufus]

Sure it can....

1Ti 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the (kosmos) world, received up into glory.

And "world" means each and every person in it w/o exception, right? Therefore, since everyone w/o exception believes the gospel, everyone in the distributive is saved. Let's hear it for Universal Salvation!

 

[sawdust]

Since when did you come to believe that spiritual death = spiritual inability?

Since always. I have been saying all along GRACE changes EVERYTHING!!!

If you reject grace you stay dead eternally.

 

[Rufus]

No, I'm saying you don't comprehend what you're reading. Your interpretation of it is wrong.
[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You're confusing him with pesky details. Blind doesn't really mean blind...

 

[Rufus]

Since always. I have been saying all along GRACE changes EVERYTHING!!!

If you reject grace you stay dead eternally.

Then how come you don't believe in the irresistible grace of resurrection power that raises the elect to life so that they can believe?

 

[Rufus]

From reputable Scholars and Theologians who know the Bible better than all of us... their words describing 2 Corinthians 4:3-

Here Paul says that it was not to be denied that the gospel was "veiled" also to some. But it was not from the nature of the gospel. It was not because God had purposely concealed its meaning.

See, Paul is saying God didn't hide the Gospel to anyone.

As usual your false doctrine is being revealed to us again.

Did you have a genuine point to make? Neither does the passage say that God hid the gospel to people, even though God is the ultimate/primary cause behind the blindness and the devil is the immediate/secondary cause -- who would not be able to do anything unless God allows him to.

 

[lrs68]

Paul didn't have to, God knew

Your previous post made it seem like you believed Paul knew but now you changed your answer.

 

[lrs68]

That one hec of statement, can you back that up ?

Only the Reformed are using 2 Corinthians 4 the way that I have mentioned so it's rather easy to back up just read the recent posts from Reformed.

 

[lrs68]

So, the BLIND can really see?

That is not the discussion. Being blind by sin nature doesn't mean something is hid from you by God Himself.

 

[Rufus]

Salvation is an inheritance Heb 9:15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

And its an promise not an offer Gal 3:18

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Excellent point! And the promise is strictly UNILATERAL in nature!

 

[lrs68]

Did you have a genuine point to make? Neither does the passage say that God hid the gospel to people, even though God is the ultimate/primary cause behind the blindness and the devil is the immediate/secondary cause -- who would not be able to do anything unless God allows him to.

I've made it which is why all the whining now happening from the Reformed.

 

[Rufus]

And that's your problem: you only consider one word from one verse when there are multiple pertinent verses that continue the doctrine but which you refuse to consider. No serious student of the Bible would collapse six or more verses beneath one word as you do unless they are trying to make it say something that it doesn't say. Even if the "if" in that verse were considered standalone (which it shouldn't be), the verse still wouldn't say what you're trying to make it say. We've seen that game before.

Maybe HIH, our self-proclaimed champion of Context ,will straighten out LRS out. But I caution you to not hold your breath on that happening in this life.

 

[Jordon]

Only the Reformed are using 2 Corinthians 4 the way that I have mentioned so it's rather easy to back up just read the recent posts from Reformed.

that's your assertion, well I'll leave you to it.