Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

I've made it which is why all the whining now happening from the Reformed.

IOW you stated the obvious through a straw man reply, since none of the Reformed ever said that God hid the gospel from anyone. But tell me: Would Satan be able to do that, apart from God's will? Or is Satan is a co-equal ruler with God?

 

[Rufus]

That is not the discussion. Being blind by sin nature doesn't mean something is hid from you by God Himself.

Learn to read: The passage doesn't teach that blindness came by man's sin nature. Blindness comes from the evil one himself.

 

[brightfame52]

No it says if it be hid

Right

 

[rogerg]

You're confusing him with pesky details. Blind doesn't really mean blind...

Yeah, amazing, isn't it? And as I mentioned to @Magenta , they're trying to hold on to that "if" for dear life no matter what

 

[sawdust]

Then how come you don't believe in the irresistible grace of resurrection power that raises the elect to life so that they can believe?

Because God promised to save believers, He didn't promise to raise people from the dead so that they can believe. If that was all it took, then why not raise all people? After all, He takes no pleasure in death, He doesn't want to see people lost. Being alive to God is no guarantee of believing the word of God, just ask Adam. We must believe Him in and of ourselves. Grace enables us to be free to believe, it doesn't enable us to believe. Free like Adam who chose to not believe and free like Christ who chose to believe.

As far as I am concerned your ideology simply swaps one master of bondage for another master of bondage and that is not who God is.

 

[rogerg]

Good reply! Also, "if" has multiple meanings, such as "allowing that", "in the event that", etc.

Yup, thanks, and that also adds to their misinterpretation of that verse

 

[lrs68]

that's your assertion, well I'll leave you to it.

So far the only people that made the same conclusion as you have admitted in the past to being Reformed. It's not like it's Rocket Science here. You are what you are.

 

[lrs68]

IOW you stated the obvious through a straw man reply, since none of the Reformed ever said that God hid the gospel from anyone. But tell me: Would Satan be able to do that, apart from God's will? Or is Satan is a co-equal ruler with God?

Actually they did say just read 5+ pages back.

 

[lrs68]

Learn to read: The passage doesn't teach that blindness came by man's sin nature. Blindness comes from the evil one himself.

That is correct. So God is not purposely hiding the Gospel from people.

 

[Jordon]

So far the only people that made the same conclusion as you have admitted in the past to being Reformed. It's not like it's Rocket Science here. You are what you are.

what conclusion have I made ?

And where is this doctrine ?

 

[brightfame52]

Actually you know it doesn't mean that ever. No one in their sound mind would believe if means whether. Well the people riding the short bus would believe it but no one sane would.

False, its the word εἰ

Conditional Particle or Conjunction

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

b. but though, but even if,

1. if, whether

εἰ ei, i; a primary particle of conditionality; if, whether, that, etc.:—forasmuch as, if, that, (al-)though, whether.

The verse can also read:

3 But though our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

 

[cv5]

I wish you luck, brightfame52. lrs is basing everything on the "if" in v4:3 and ignores
verses before and after it. I had thought it was just a problem with his reading perception, but now
I've moved past that thinking he's actually trying to sabotage the meaning of those verses to make them
compatible to FW beliefs.

***So*** you are telling us that Calvinism only works ***if*** you remove every conditional clause in the Bible?

Well then, little wonder that the Calvinists remain Biblically illiterate,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Jordon]

***So*** you are telling us that Calvinism only works ***if*** you remove every conditional clause in the Bible?

Well then, little wonder that the Calvinists remain Biblically illiterate,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4t
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Yep sadly some will not have the light shine upon them, so in this case if the light of the gospel doesn't shine in them it's hidden.

And don't bring Calvinists into this discussion like you do everything else, it proves nothing accept you forcing your will again

 

[cv5]

Yep sadly some will not have the light shine upon them, so in this case if the light of the gospel doesn't shine in them it's hidden.

And don't bring Calvinists into this discussion like you do everything else, it proves nothing accept you forcing your will again

So being blind to the conditional clauses in the Bible doesn't mean that you are blind?
Or is the intention of doing so to blind others?

 

[Jordon]

So being blind to the conditional clauses in the Bible doesn't mean that you are blind?
Or is the intention of doing so is that you are trying to blind others?

only God can open the eyes of the blind,

People flee from the light because the light exposes there deeds.

So in essence even the unbeliever sees the light of God exposing there deeds, and in essence it's the same light às the gospel, but the light of the lord which is the light of the gospel remains hidden because they serve a different master when they flee from the light exposing there deeds

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I haven't read the ten posts at present I've read a couple, and I did have concerns like the first one you mention you said righteousness was imputed to abram, I thought it was counted unto him ? Was you saying that because of his own actions

imputed = counted.

the Greek word logizomai is translated "counted" in Rom 4:3 and "imputed" in Rom 4:22.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [Greek = logizomai] unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed [Greek = logizomai] to him for righteousness.

But are you sure she was calling you a liar directly, maybe just like anyone else, a persons understanding of scripture can lie.

here's what Magenta said after I asked her to provide the post wherein she claimed "free willers think they are clever to present mothers loving and caring for their children as "evil." " ...

reneweddaybyday said:​

You know ... and Magenta knows ... you have yet to provide factual support for claims made.​

Magenta said:​

​

Says the person who entered this thread breathing out lies and false accusations, then talking about how Christians ought to behave!​

​

Don't expect me to try to find all your lies.​

and fyi ... as time allows, I will find the post to which Magenta was referring ... then we'll see who said what ...

And I've read enough posts in this thread and seen that cone across many times,

But magenta has been called a liar many times by the crew your have supporting here also,

What are you talking about ???

I don't have a "crew" ... I'm not "supporting" a "crew".

Is the one body of the Lord Jesus Christ made up of "crews" (plural) ... or "crew" (singular) ... I believe the one body of the Lord Jesus Christ is made up of one crew (body) with the Lord Jesus Christ being the Head. God's desire is that there be no schism in the body ...

1 Corinthians 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

you wanna lop off part of the one body of the Lord Jesus Christ? ... it appears that is what is in view here Jordon.

Sadly, Magenta responded to my request that she provide the number of the post with what is referred to as ad hominem fallacy. Instead of providing the post number, she used ad hominem fallacy to claim I "entered this thread breathing out lies and false accusations" . Wake up and smell the coffee, Jordon! Magenta lied about me ... you are free to choose to believe her lies ... however, believing her lies does not turn her lies into truth.

But I know at times your understandings and my understanding have not reached any full agreement either, so somewhere there is an untruth, and gee wizz, and if im wrong and dont handle being called a liar over it, I really can't be that well grounded in his word to be honest,

true that you and I have discussed Scripture and you and I have not reached full agreement ... but you and I are still cordial with each other. We treat each other with care and respect as God instructs in His Word.

also true that my holding someone accountable for the claims they make does not equal my not being "grounded in His Word".

"to be honest" ... could it be that the one being held accountable for slinging fiery darts is the one who is "not well grounded in His Word" ???

And may I ask do you believe you have been perfectly indoctrinated, so much so you can never be wrong, ?

all who have posted in this thread are in the process of maturing spiritually. All born again believers will reach full maturity when we see the Lord Jesus Christ face to face ... at that time we will be as He is.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You did done a logical fallacy.

as did you with this post ... ad hominem fallacy is not a good look for you. I prefer the pic attached to your moniker.

.

 

[GWH]

you saying things people are doing, which there not, then instead of owning up to your false assertions, you then quote a load of scripture to justify your actions, and you never once own up, what your doing is using scripture to condem people with for no apparent reason that I can see,

For those in Christ there is no condemnation that you can bring, as people in Christ will only be convicted, only you don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two.

I asked you a simple question, which comes first in an unbeliver, Gods enabling grace or an Unbelievers own belief in God.

Is it at all possible you can answer this straight forward question, before laying down a thousand rabbit trails, which then enables two sides having a firm footing on which to debate about, before you start your next barrage.

So my sin is quoting too much Scripture to support my belief/picture that God loves everyone?

I plead guilty!

 

[Rufus]

You did done a logical fallacy.

He's a typical worldly wise man. He thinks God's truth is decided by votes or a consensus.

 

[Rufus]

So my sin is quoting too much Scripture to support my belief/picture that God loves everyone?

I plead guilty!

Yes, you are indeed guilty, for you contradict God's Word. There are several explicit scriptures that teach specifically who God loves. Find me one that says God loves the wicked.

Also, if you feel up to the task... -- reconcile your simple-minded, man-exalting theology with these two passages: Prov 11:1 and Prov 11:20.