How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?

[sawdust]

No, they did not glorify the Father, Son or HS, which worries me, because angels were in effect competing for God's glory.
At this point perhaps it would be more helpful for you to look at post #22 to see where I am coming from.

Hasta manana.

Um, where do you get that notion from?

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

Revelation 16:5
Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: “You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were;

Ok, just looked back to your post #22. I can see why you are confused. If you forget whatever you read in that book and simply think back to your general reading of scripture, apart from the fallen angels and their desire to lie and murder God, can you think of any scripture to suggest the elect angels are trying to compete with God? I certainly have never had that impression. When it comes to the (2/3rd) angels who remained with the Lord, I have always had the impression they loved and adored Him and desired nothing more than to serve Him day and night, willing to go wherever and whenever He sends them.

 

[GWH]

Um, where do you get that notion from?

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

Revelation 16:5
Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: “You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were;

Ok, just looked back to your post #22. I can see why you are confused. If you forget whatever you read in that book and simply think back to your general reading of scripture, apart from the fallen angels and their desire to lie and murder God, can you think of any scripture to suggest the elect angels are trying to compete with God? I certainly have never had that impression. When it comes to the (2/3rd) angels who remained with the Lord, I have always had the impression they loved and adored Him and desired nothing more than to serve Him day and night, willing to go wherever and whenever He sends them.

No, my concern is not based on Scripture, but my solution is based on John 3:30. and hints in Hebrews 2:1-16 & 8:6-9:10.
(I also dislike giving glory to the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or even to Mary more than Joseph for their roles in Christmas.)
Confusion is due to the lack of answers in Scripture to questions like I asked. IOW, angelology raises more questions than
it answers in my mind, but I am willing to wait until heaven to learn how angels fit/jibe with God's plan of salvation for humanity.

Thus, my current interest is stated in post #85, if you have any insights that would help in understanding angels in Revelation.
My eschatology is Pauline, based on 1Cor. 15, 1Thes. 4:13-5:3 and 2Thes. 2:1-12, which make no reference to angels other than
to the work of Satan manifested by counterfeit miracles, lies and every sort of evil (2Thes. 9-10). The Gospel of John has
only two references to angels (John 1:51 & John 20:11-18), and even in Revelation their salvation history remains a mystery.

 

[GWH]

I understand the purpose of Revelation and the first three chapters,
but that leaves us to understand the imagery in the rest regarding the role of angels and the HS
.
In chapter four the imagery can be understood as deriving from OT passages:

Rev. 4:5 & 5:6 - The seven spirits of God are identified as the spirits mentioned in Isa. 11:2,: "The Spirit of the Lord (1), of wisdom (2), of understanding (3), of counsel (4), of might (5), of the knowledge (6) and fear of the Lord (7).

Rev. 4:6, 5:14 & 7:11 - The four living creatures are mentioned in Ezek. 4:6 and identified as referring to the cherubim
in Ezek. 9:3 &10:1-22, who resemble the seraphim mentioned in Isa. 6:2-4, who exclaimed "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty."

However, I am still baffled by the rest of Rev until chapter 21.

Rev. 6:1-14 - The six seals include: Rider with a bow on a white horse (v.1-2); Rider with a sword on a red horse (v.3-4);
Rider with scales on a black horse (v.5-6); Death on a pale horse followed by Hades (v.7-8); martyrs were given white robes (v.9-11);
an earthquake and heaven-shake caused people to seek shelter in caves (v.12-14).

Rev. 7:4-8 - The 144,000 represent those who are sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel.
Rev. 8 & 9 - The opening of the 7th seal (in 8:1-2) began events accompanying six angels blowing trumpets: 1. fire burned a third of the earth; 2. a third of creatures in the sea died and ships were destroyed; 3. a third of fresh water springs and rivers became bitter;
4. a third of the sun, moon and stars turned dark; 5. locusts stung like scorpions those without the seal of God on their foreheads;
6. four angels were sent to kill a third of humanity.

Rev. 10 - There is a pause while the writer ate a little scroll.
Rev. 11:3-12 - Two witnesses prophesied for 1,260 days.
Rev. 11:15-19 - The seventh angel blew his trumpet, whereupon God's temple in heaven was revealed.
Rev. 12 - A woman bore a son, who went up to heaven, where war was waged between angels led by Michael and other
angels led by a dragon.
Rev. 13 - Two beasts were given power by the dragon to war against God's saints.
Rev. 14 - The Lamb is mentioned and six angels perform various tasks.
Rev. 15 & 16 - Seven more angels deliver seven final plagues by pouring out their bowls.
Rev. 17 & 18 - The punishment of Babylon is described.
Rev. 19 - God's victory and the Lamb's wedding are celebrated.
Rev. 20 - A thousand year imprisonment of Satan followed by his release and final consignment to hell is cited.

Is anyone able to explain chapters 8-20?
(No one has been able to do so up to this point in time, so take your time.)

Rev. 21 - The new Jerusalem is described.
Rev. 22 - The second coming of Jesus is anticipated.

I get these two chapters. Yay!

Okay, I will take a stab at interpreting Rev. 4-20.

Rev. 4:2 - God is portrayed as sitting on a throne in heaven and being worshipped (in v. 8b & 11) by four living creatures
described as being like a lion, an ox, a man and an eagle. Also present were 24 elders, which are mentioned again in Rev. 7:11 following a list of the twelve tribes of Israel, so presumably 12 of the elders represent Israel or the OT and the remaining 12 elders
represent the twelve apostles of Christ or the NT believers cited in Rev. 7:9-10. Finally, Rev. 4:5 mentions the seven spirits of God that were previously introduced in Rev. 3:1 and identified as alluding to the sevenfold Spirit of the Lord in Isa. 11:2.

How am I doing?

 

[GWH]

Okay, I will take a stab at interpreting Rev. 4-20.

Rev. 4:2 - God is portrayed as sitting on a throne in heaven and being worshipped (in v. 8b & 11) by four living creatures
described as being like a lion, an ox, a man and an eagle. Also present were 24 elders, which are mentioned again in Rev. 7:11 following a list of the twelve tribes of Israel, so presumably 12 of the elders represent Israel or the OT and the remaining 12 elders
represent the twelve apostles of Christ or the NT believers cited in Rev. 7:9-10. Finally, Rev. 4:5 mentions the seven spirits of God that were previously introduced in Rev. 3:1 and identified as alluding to the sevenfold Spirit of the Lord in Isa. 11:2.

How am I doing?

I discovered that the four living creatures in Rev. 4:6-8 apparently were inspired by those described in Ezek. 1:5-10:

"In the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man,
but each of them had four faces and four wings. Their legs were straight; their feet were like those
of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man.
All four of them had faces and wings, and their wings touched one another; Each one went straight ahead;
they did not turn as they moved. Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man,
and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."

Ezekiel goes on to describe the creatures as having wheels beside them that moved with them (Ezek. 1:11-21).

 

[Me_Clay]

I discovered that the four living creatures in Rev. 4:6-8 apparently were inspired by those described in Ezek. 1:5-10:

"In the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man,
but each of them had four faces and four wings. Their legs were straight; their feet were like those
of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man.
All four of them had faces and wings, and their wings touched one another; Each one went straight ahead;
they did not turn as they moved. Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man,
and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."

Ezekiel goes on to describe the creatures as having wheels beside them that moved with them (Ezek. 1:11-21).

I have 6 wings and you've 4 wings, are we the same creatures in God's eye?

 

[sawdust]

No, my concern is not based on Scripture, but my solution is based on John 3:30. and hints in Hebrews 2:1-16 & 8:6-9:10.

To be honest, I'm struggling to understand what the problem is to know whether the verses you quote are a solution or not.

Confusion is due to the lack of answers in Scripture to questions like I asked. IOW, angelology raises more questions than it answers in my mind, but I am willing to wait until heaven to learn how angels fit/jibe with God's plan of salvation for humanity.

Are you thinking the angels were created specifically to help in some way with man's salvation?

As far as I understand, we became the classroom for the angels to learn good and evil. Lucifer said "in his heart" his "5 I wills" so no-one but God knew what Lucifer was thinking for which he was judged. By allowing the Fall, the angels are able to see evil manifested and it's consequences in a tangible way hence the declaration in Rev.16:5 the justness of God's judgements.

Service is at the heart of the Lord, hence the term "suffering servant" and service is not limited to His humanity but even in His Deity, He serves His creation 24/7 in love and mercy, upholding it, caring for it, providing for it.

Should we therefore be surprised that both angels and men were designed with service in mind?

Any creature without purpose is lost in some shape or form so I don't see a problem with the Lord sending out his angels to deliver messages or doing some form of work on His behalf. Beats sitting around doing nothing.

Like I said earlier, I really am struggling to see where you are coming from with this so sorry if none of the above is any help.

 

[Jordon]

I have 6 wings and you've 4 wings, are we the same creatures in God's eye?

only if your two birds of the feather

 

[GWH]

I have 6 wings and you've 4 wings, are we the same creatures in God's eye?

And John's creatures lacked wheels, but who knows what is meant even if they refer to the same creatures?

 

[GWH]

To be honest, I'm struggling to understand what the problem is to know whether the verses you quote are a solution or not.

Are you thinking the angels were created specifically to help in some way with man's salvation?

As far as I understand, we became the classroom for the angels to learn good and evil. Lucifer said "in his heart" his "5 I wills" so no-one but God knew what Lucifer was thinking for which he was judged. By allowing the Fall, the angels are able to see evil manifested and it's consequences in a tangible way hence the declaration in Rev.16:5 the justness of God's judgements.

Service is at the heart of the Lord, hence the term "suffering servant" and service is not limited to His humanity but even in His Deity, He serves His creation 24/7 in love and mercy, upholding it, caring for it, providing for it.

Should we therefore be surprised that both angels and men were designed with service in mind?

Any creature without purpose is lost in some shape or form so I don't see a problem with the Lord sending out his angels to deliver messages or doing some form of work on His behalf. Beats sitting around doing nothing.

Like I said earlier, I really am struggling to see where you are coming from with this so sorry if none of the above is any help.

Your comments have been helpful and I generally agree, but may I remind you of my questions in #114:

I do not understand where angels come in (Gen. 3:24), why they are needed (Col. 1:16), when they were created (Neh. 9:6), etc.
Are they robots or free to sin? (Heb. 1:4-14) Do they have their own salvation history? Are they spirits superior to mortals? (2Pet. 2:11)
Are they merely messengers without being mediators (1Tim. 2:3-5)? Their function seems superfluous and somewhat competitive with the role of the HS. (Psa. 91:11-12) The Bible has no clear doctrine of angels/angelology but only vague references (Luke 2:9-15),
so there is good reason to have these questions. It will be interesting to find out about angels in heaven.

Your helpful comments in #116 included:

As I said, there purpose is in the name, they are messengers, servants of God. They do whatever He assigns them to do.
As to being needed? Is man needed or wanted?
Seeing as two thirds got kicked out of heaven and Satan is called a murderer and a liar, I think it obvious they can sin.
The lake of fire was created for the fallen angels Matt.25:41 so unless you hold a Reformed view that says God created certain beings just so He can "flex His muscles" and destroy them it would seem to me, knowing the just and loving God that He is, there would have been some sort of period given for repentance. After all, the Lord has been known to overlook ignorance. Acts 17:30
Doesn't say they are superior, it says they are greater, stronger and more powerful. The President is greater than you, there are men stronger and more powerful than me. Neither case makes them superior in the sense of being better. If that is what you think 2Pet.2:11 is saying, then I think you are mistaken.
Where are they called mediators?
You don't get a dog and bark yourself. A purposeless life is no life. God knows He cannot create life and then give it no purpose. Without purpose, spirits and man alike, would drown in hopelessness.
Considering man was made just a little lower than the angels, I believe we can look to God's purpose and His dealings with us and get a reasonable glimpse of His purpose and dealings with spirits to understand how it works. As to any specifics? If the Lord wants you to know, go ask and it shall be answered, unless it's His secret for now.

All of this may be true, and if so then the curious among us look forward to reading/learning a third testament in heaven
telling about the salvation history of angels.

The gist of my concern was stated in #33: I want to consider whether we should allow the angels to become less important as the Holy Spirit becomes greater, as John said with regard to Jesus in John 3:30. IOW, we should wait until heaven to understand how angels fit into God's POS, (along with other problematic passages in the Bible, such as baptism for the dead, the genocide by Joshua, the interpretation of RV, and whether Joseph may be called the Father of God if Mary is His mother). IOW, just as the NT superseded the OT per HEB, it is not a matter of replacing the angels but of keeping them in their proper place.

I realize that this concern is not addressed in the NT, so I am merely chasing a rabbit, so to speak.

 

[sawdust]

And John's creatures lacked wheels, but who knows what is meant even if they refer to the same creatures?

I have been taught wings signify class/role within the hierarchy of angels much like generals in an army have stars.

I will get to your other post a little later, my brain has turned to mush at the moment.

 

[GWH]

I have been taught wings signify class/role within the hierarchy of angels much like generals in an army have stars.

I will get to your other post a little later, my brain has turned to mush at the moment.

Still mushy?

 

[sawdust]

Still mushy?

Sorry. I haven't forgotten you. I just have had a busy couple of days. I hope to get to a reply tomorrow. <insert praying hands>

 

[sawdust]

I do not understand where angels come in (Gen. 3:24), why they are needed (Col. 1:16), when they were created (Neh. 9:6), etc.
Are they robots or free to sin? (Heb. 1:4-14) Do they have their own salvation history? Are they spirits superior to mortals? (2Pet. 2:11)
Are they merely messengers without being mediators (1Tim. 2:3-5)? Their function seems superfluous and somewhat competitive with the role of the HS. (Psa. 91:11-12) The Bible has no clear doctrine of angels/angelology but only vague references (Luke 2:9-15),
so there is good reason to have these questions. It will be interesting to find out about angels in heaven.

Gen.3:24
I see this as a job description for a couple of angels. I believe the garden of Eden was a real geographical location on the Earth. I realise not everyone does but Adam had to be stopped from going back in and eating from the tree of life. Consider how depressing it would be if we lived forever as sinners? Like I said earlier, our own Lord serves, why should any creature be different? Consider natural biomes and how they serve each other and what happens to them when "unnatural" events are introduced. "I came to serve, not be served" I believe is the mindset of the Lord we worship hence, creation itself when working within His will, also serves.

Col.1:16
Everything including angels were created by, for and through the Lord Jesus Christ. Why create angels? Why create dogs and cats or cows and goats? They do similar things yet fill different needs. I guess really what I'm saying is why not create angels? Are there aspects of the creation whereby their uniqueness lends itself to a job requirement that we cannot do? Does not the extensive variety of the creation fill you with a wonder and joy that would be missing if there were only a handful of variations? I dfor one love finding new things.

Neh.9:6
Job 38:4-7 suggests they were created before the universe.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Heb.1:4-14
This passage is distinguishing between the role of the Son and of angels. Not sure why you would ask if they are free to sin on the basis of this passage but Lucifer sinned and unless you want to say God forced him to sin (and I'm sure you wouldn't), then I think the sin answers your question. They are spirits who serve. v.7

2Pet.2:11
I think I have addressed this. It doesn't say superior, it says greater. A person can be greater in power and position but that does not mean greater in worth or value. Your president is greater than you but he is not more valuable than you. That's why he gets the security detail but you don't. It's because of his power and position, not his inherent worth.

1Tim.2:3-5
I think the verse answers your question. Only one mediator, the man Jesus Christ. I don't know of any verse that describes them as mediators.

Ps.91:11-12
Why did God appoint teachers? Isn't the Holy Spirit suppose to be our teacher? If through this post you find some encouragement and/or comfort, have I become superfluous? After all, is not the Holy Spirit our Comforter? Before time began and anything was created, God thought to share His life. Titus 1:2 If His life is love and giving (and it is) should His creation be deprived of that same life? Why do you serve the Lord, out of fear of punishment or love of who He is? I'm pretty sure you would answer the latter. He has set eternity in our hearts and the desire to do as He does should not surprise us. Even Jesus said He only did and spoke what the Father showed Him.

Lk.2:9-15
Well, we can say there is a lot of them and they abide in heaven.
God is not wasteful and He knows what He is doing. I believe if He wanted us to know more He would have told us more. There is always the danger of 1Cor.8:1 with much knowledge and while the wise seek knowledge, humility teaches them their limits.

As to their own salvation history? It can't be like ours because they started from a different position so I think trying to make comparisons is futile. We know God is merciful. Lucifer sinned long before we came on the scene and God created the lake of fire specifically for the devil and his angels Matt.25:41 but they are not there yet so, I think that tells us something of God's grace toward the rebellious spirits.

The forum is playing up on me again so will answer your last paragraph in another post.

 

[GWH]

Gen.3:24
I see this as a job description for a couple of angels. I believe the garden of Eden was a real geographical location on the Earth. I realise not everyone does but Adam had to be stopped from going back in and eating from the tree of life. Consider how depressing it would be if we lived forever as sinners? Like I said earlier, our own Lord serves, why should any creature be different? Consider natural biomes and how they serve each other and what happens to them when "unnatural" events are introduced. "I came to serve, not be served" I believe is the mindset of the Lord we worship hence, creation itself when working within His will, also serves.

Col.1:16
Everything including angels were created by, for and through the Lord Jesus Christ. Why create angels? Why create dogs and cats or cows and goats? They do similar things yet fill different needs. I guess really what I'm saying is why not create angels? Are there aspects of the creation whereby their uniqueness lends itself to a job requirement that we cannot do? Does not the extensive variety of the creation fill you with a wonder and joy that would be missing if there were only a handful of variations? I dfor one love finding new things.

Neh.9:6
Job 38:4-7 suggests they were created before the universe.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Heb.1:4-14
This passage is distinguishing between the role of the Son and of angels. Not sure why you would ask if they are free to sin on the basis of this passage but Lucifer sinned and unless you want to say God forced him to sin (and I'm sure you wouldn't), then I think the sin answers your question. They are spirits who serve. v.7

2Pet.2:11
I think I have addressed this. It doesn't say superior, it says greater. A person can be greater in power and position but that does not mean greater in worth or value. Your president is greater than you but he is not more valuable than you. That's why he gets the security detail but you don't. It's because of his power and position, not his inherent worth.

1Tim.2:3-5
I think the verse answers your question. Only one mediator, the man Jesus Christ. I don't know of any verse that describes them as mediators.

Ps.91:11-12
Why did God appoint teachers? Isn't the Holy Spirit suppose to be our teacher? If through this post you find some encouragement and/or comfort, have I become superfluous? After all, is not the Holy Spirit our Comforter? Before time began and anything was created, God thought to share His life. Titus 1:2 If His life is love and giving (and it is) should His creation be deprived of that same life? Why do you serve the Lord, out of fear of punishment or love of who He is? I'm pretty sure you would answer the latter. He has set eternity in our hearts and the desire to do as He does should not surprise us. Even Jesus said He only did and spoke what the Father showed Him.

Lk.2:9-15
Well, we can say there is a lot of them and they abide in heaven.
God is not wasteful and He knows what He is doing. I believe if He wanted us to know more He would have told us more. There is always the danger of 1Cor.8:1 with much knowledge and while the wise seek knowledge, humility teaches them their limits.

As to their own salvation history? It can't be like ours because they started from a different position so I think trying to make comparisons is futile. We know God is merciful. Lucifer sinned long before we came on the scene and God created the lake of fire specifically for the devil and his angels Matt.25:41 but they are not there yet so, I think that tells us something of God's grace toward the rebellious spirits.

The forum is playing up on me again so will answer your last paragraph in another post.

Yes, the glitch prevented my reply from posting yesterday I see, so here it is:

1. Gen.3:24 may be a job description for a couple of angels, but my questions include:
when were they created, what was their history before and after Gen. 3:24, and why were they employed instead of the HS?
I believe it is more likely that Eden represents a spiritual condition rather than a physical location, just as the tree of life
represents salvation from living forever as sinners in hell rather than food.

2. The world including animals was created for humanity to be stewards of for God, and I agree that variety is the spice of life other than in spouses and gods, but if angels do exist for some reason, I for one would have appreciated the Bible containing at least one chapter explaining how they jibe, so I could include that understanding in my belief system and add angelology to the website.
For example, did Christ's death atone for the sins of angels?

3. I refer to sins in connection with Heb. 1:1-14, because Hebrews 1-3 explain why Jesus was qualified to atone for sins.

4. Would we interpret 2Pet. 2:11 in light of Gal. 3:28? [There is no difference between angels and humans.]

5. In 1Tim. 2:3-5 Paul may have mentioned there being only one mediator because some people including Gnostics viewed
angels as mediators.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Over...

 

[sawdust]

1. Gen.3:24 may be a job description for a couple of angels, but my questions include:
when were they created, what was their history before and after Gen. 3:24, and why were they employed instead of the HS?
I believe it is more likely that Eden represents a spiritual condition rather than a physical location, just as the tree of life
represents salvation from living forever as sinners in hell rather than food.

I did answer the "when created" part. Job 38:4-7 suggests they were created before the universe or at least before the earth. Why not employ the Father or the Son to do the job instead of the angels? It's not like they can't be in more than one place at a time either? Why appoint men to spread the Good News? I did give an answer as to why I believe both man and angels are given roles and jobs to do. Everything needs a purpose. Even a worm needs a purpose and a function in life.

2. The world including animals was created for humanity to be stewards of for God, and I agree that variety is the spice of life other than in spouses and gods, but if angels do exist for some reason, I for one would have appreciated the Bible containing at least one chapter explaining how they jibe, so I could include that understanding in my belief system and add angelology to the website.
For example, did Christ's death atone for the sins of angels?

If God thought having a chapter on angels was beneficial and necessary to man, it would be there. When we can explain how quantum physics jibes with macro physics, maybe we will have a better understanding of how angels jibe with the rest of the universe. Can you not rest in the wisdom of God that He should create something that we don't understand, don't see the necessity of and yet exists?
No it did not atone for the sins of angels. Their Fall was different. For one thing they were not all made sinners by one angel. Each gave their response as an individual much like we can now but only because Christ removed the sin barrier through His death. Nor is Christ fully God and fully angel and therefore cannot be their representative.

3. I refer to sins in connection with Heb. 1:1-14, because Hebrews 1-3 explain why Jesus was qualified to atone for sins.

I suspect Heb.1 was written to counter some form of possibly gnostic teaching comparing Christ to angels but Christ is able to qualify to atone for our sins because He is fully human. Christ succeeded where Adam failed.

4. Would we interpret 2Pet. 2:11 in light of Gal. 3:28? [There is no difference between angels and humans.]

I wouldn't as angels are not mentioned in the Gal. passage and why would it? It is speaking of the Church which is made for man. Ps.8 speaks of man being made a little lower than the angels (this is where the "greater" position kicks in) and specifically refers to the son of man who I see as a reference to the Incarnation for which Heb. 2 picks up on. For this reason alone I would say angels and man are different. I would go further as well and say they are spirits, we are souls and while spirit and soul have similarities, they are not the same thing.

5. In 1Tim. 2:3-5 Paul may have mentioned there being only one mediator because some people including Gnostics viewed
angels as mediators.

I agree and therefore I think it even more convincing that angels were never intended or ever were mediators.

Now, as to the last paragraph of your other post.

The gist of my concern was stated in #33: I want to consider whether we should allow the angels to become less important as the Holy Spirit becomes greater, as John said with regard to Jesus in John 3:30. IOW, we should wait until heaven to understand how angels fit into God's POS, (along with other problematic passages in the Bible, such as baptism for the dead, the genocide by Joshua, the interpretation of RV, and whether Joseph may be called the Father of God if Mary is His mother). IOW, just as the NT superseded the OT per HEB, it is not a matter of replacing the angels but of keeping them in their proper place.

In regards to John and Jesus imo it is was about the ministry not the nature of the person that needed to decrease and increase. John came to prepare the way for the Messiah so when He did come, the Israelites needed to turn their focus from John's message to Jesus' message. Of course, once the message of Christ is heard He, being greater than John in His person, is obvious. (to some at least )

We have a different relationship with the Holy Spirit in the Church than anyone else throughout history prior to Pentecost. So I think in that sense we ought to have a greater expectation to see His hand at work rather than the angels. But this is not to say angels no longer have a role as Heb.13:2 reminds us. There is also the issue of what Heb. 1&2 is about in that the focus on the uniqueness of the Son and His word ought to be our concern and it is the Holy Spirit who reminds us of the things of Christ.

If there is a need to keep the angels "in their proper place" I suggest it is only because throughout the ages people have either elevated or dismissed them into places they never belonged. After all, was not this Lucifer's sin, to elevate himself to a position for which he was not qualified?

As to baptism on behalf of the dead. The Church was in it's infancy, there was still much to learn.
Genocide of Joshua. Atheists complain when God does nothing about the evil in this world and when He does they complain about his methods. The Canaanites were a very evil people. God commanded what was necessary. Plus, it's not like they couldn't have survived eg Rahab.
Interpretation of RV. Don't know what RV stands for so can't comment.
Joseph father of God. Had nothing to do with Christ's birth. Mary at least supplied genetic material and a womb.
NT supersede the OT. It didn't supersede the OT it fulfilled the OT. The promise of the longed for Messiah was made way back in Gen.3:15 and from then on it was a revealing and a preparatory work of God in regards to humanity. The NT reveals the "fait accompli" of what the OT promised.

 

[GWH]

I did answer the "when created" part. Job 38:4-7 suggests they were created before the universe or at least before the earth. Why not employ the Father or the Son to do the job instead of the angels? It's not like they can't be in more than one place at a time either? Why appoint men to spread the Good News? I did give an answer as to why I believe both man and angels are given roles and jobs to do. Everything needs a purpose. Even a worm needs a purpose and a function in life.

If God thought having a chapter on angels was beneficial and necessary to man, it would be there. When we can explain how quantum physics jibes with macro physics, maybe we will have a better understanding of how angels jibe with the rest of the universe. Can you not rest in the wisdom of God that He should create something that we don't understand, don't see the necessity of and yet exists?
No it did not atone for the sins of angels. Their Fall was different. For one thing they were not all made sinners by one angel. Each gave their response as an individual much like we can now but only because Christ removed the sin barrier through His death. Nor is Christ fully God and fully angel and therefore cannot be their representative.

I suspect Heb.1 was written to counter some form of possibly gnostic teaching comparing Christ to angels but Christ is able to qualify to atone for our sins because He is fully human. Christ succeeded where Adam failed.

I wouldn't as angels are not mentioned in the Gal. passage and why would it? It is speaking of the Church which is made for man. Ps.8 speaks of man being made a little lower than the angels (this is where the "greater" position kicks in) and specifically refers to the son of man who I see as a reference to the Incarnation for which Heb. 2 picks up on. For this reason alone I would say angels and man are different. I would go further as well and say they are spirits, we are souls and while spirit and soul have similarities, they are not the same thing.

I agree and therefore I think it even more convincing that angels were never intended or ever were mediators.

Now, as to the last paragraph of your other post.

In regards to John and Jesus imo it is was about the ministry not the nature of the person that needed to decrease and increase. John came to prepare the way for the Messiah so when He did come, the Israelites needed to turn their focus from John's message to Jesus' message. Of course, once the message of Christ is heard He, being greater than John in His person, is obvious. (to some at least )

We have a different relationship with the Holy Spirit in the Church than anyone else throughout history prior to Pentecost. So I think in that sense we ought to have a greater expectation to see His hand at work rather than the angels. But this is not to say angels no longer have a role as Heb.13:2 reminds us. There is also the issue of what Heb. 1&2 is about in that the focus on the uniqueness of the Son and His word ought to be our concern and it is the Holy Spirit who reminds us of the things of Christ.

If there is a need to keep the angels "in their proper place" I suggest it is only because throughout the ages people have either elevated or dismissed them into places they never belonged. After all, was not this Lucifer's sin, to elevate himself to a position for which he was not qualified?

As to baptism on behalf of the dead. The Church was in it's infancy, there was still much to learn.
Genocide of Joshua. Atheists complain when God does nothing about the evil in this world and when He does they complain about his methods. The Canaanites were a very evil people. God commanded what was necessary. Plus, it's not like they couldn't have survived eg Rahab.
Interpretation of RV. Don't know what RV stands for so can't comment.
Joseph father of God. Had nothing to do with Christ's birth. Mary at least supplied genetic material and a womb.
NT supersede the OT. It didn't supersede the OT it fulfilled the OT. The promise of the longed for Messiah was made way back in Gen.3:15 and from then on it was a revealing and a preparatory work of God in regards to humanity. The NT reveals the "fait accompli" of what the OT promised.

Thanks for taking time for this discussion; many people on CC only take pot shots.

I agree that angels must have been created before humanity, and presumably they have a salvation history,
so the question is whether their history is ours; is Jesus also their Messiah, because them having MFW to sin
is implied by the cases of Satan and fallen angels.

There is no chapter on angelology in GW, but I did run across this verse warning against angelolatry:

"Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize" (Col. 2:16).
Col. 2:17 19 seems to refer to angelolatry and Col. 2:20-23 to asceticism. Cool, huh?
As you said, "If there is a need to keep the angels in their proper place, I suggest it is only because throughout the ages people have either elevated or dismissed them into places they never belonged. After all, was not this Lucifer's sin, to elevate himself to a position for which he was not qualified?"

Re "When we can explain how quantum physics jibes with macro physics, maybe we will have a better understanding of how
angels jibe with the rest of the universe.": You are reading my mind; what I seek is a general theology of relativity/relationality.

Re "Their Fall was different. For one thing they were not all made sinners by one angel. Each gave their response as an individual much like we can." Well, their fall was "made" by Satan just as ours was "made" by A&E, so it may be a distinction without a difference.

Re "I suspect Heb.1 was written to counter some form of possibly gnostic teaching comparing Christ to angels".
And 1Tim. 2:3-5, too!

Re "As to baptism on behalf of the dead. The Church was in it's infancy, there was still much to learn.": Yes, but Joseph Smith over-thought this verse!

Re "Genocide of Joshua... The Canaanites were a very evil people. God commanded what was necessary. Plus, it's not like they couldn't have survived": Yes, there were no adoption agencies for the innocent orphans. Plus, perhaps they would have been spared if they had humbled themselves like the Gibeonites (Joshua 9).

Re RV, it means Revelation. I developed the habit of using two letters for Bible books and am still in the process
of changing them to the CC format so they will turn blue.

Re Mary supplying the egg. Mary was as sinful as Joseph, so my guess is that the HS supplied/implanted the ovum.

Re "NT supersede the OT. It didn't supersede the OT it fulfilled the OT. The promise of the longed for Messiah was made way back in Gen.3:15 and from then on it was a revealing and a preparatory work of God in regards to humanity. The NT reveals the "fait accompli" of what the OT promised." Yes, and the NT is ongoing/in force until the Judgment, which is what "supersedes" means in this context.

Over...

 

[sawdust]

Thanks for taking time for this discussion; many people on CC only take pot shots.

No problem, it's nice to actually "discuss".

I agree that angels must have been created before humanity, and presumably they have a salvation history,

Two thirds of the angels don't need a salvation history as they were never lost. I don't think they needed or that God ever promised them a Saviour (Messiah) in the same way He did us. For one thing, Lucifer did not condemn the one third who followed him to a hopeless position like Adam did to us. They all chose of their own free will to follow Lucifer whereas we did not choose to be born sinners. There is also the fact that they all stood face to face with the Lord. Even after they fell we see glimpses of them before the Lord. Job.1:6 1Kings 22:21 I'm also inclined to think the nature of their essence being different to ours (ie.spirit v. soul) that necessitates dealing differently with them to some degree.

Re "Their Fall was different. For one thing they were not all made sinners by one angel. Each gave their response as an individual much like we can." Well, their fall was "made" by Satan just as ours was "made" by A&E, so it may be a distinction without a difference.

I disagree with this. Yes, Lucifer was the influencer (or is that influenza ) as he was in the Garden but I do not believe he made them sinners in the same way Adam did to us. Our error is in our flesh which we got from Adam. Jn.3:6 We have no control over that whatsoever. I do see it as a distinction with a difference.

Re "As to baptism on behalf of the dead. The Church was in it's infancy, there was still much to learn.": Yes, but Joseph Smith over-thought this verse!

I was only looking at from the perspective of scripture and the early Church. They did not have all the written word as we do. The individual churches were still in a learning curve. As to what others do/did with it much later? I don't see the relevance. One of the things I love about scripture is it never whitewashes peoples mistakes. I think they simply got it wrong early on.

Re Mary supplying the egg. Mary was as sinful as Joseph, so my guess is that the HS supplied/implanted the ovum.

Yes, but sin didn't come through the woman and has never done so since. It is the male sperm that causes the genetic formation of the sin nature (corruption). The Holy Spirit supplied the material needed to fertilize Mary's ovum. Considering God can make a whole body from a bit of clay, it's not a hardship. Mary is most definitely the mother of Jesus' body.

Yes, and the NT is ongoing/in force until the Judgment, which is what "supersedes" means in this context.

If you are meaning it in the sense of the following, I can live with that.

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Re "When we can explain how quantum physics jibes with macro physics, maybe we will have a better understanding of how
angels jibe with the rest of the universe.": You are reading my mind; what I seek is a general theology of relativity/relationality.

For the sake of time it might be better we just stick with the angels and your "general theology of relationality". (I like that. )

Also we are about to have a cyclone supposedly hit within the next 24 hours so if you don't hear from me, don't worry, I will get back to you when I can. It's not a big one (Cat.1 or maybe Cat.2) so I'm not expecting too much trouble.

 

[decipher]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. "thee, the only true God" and "thou" refer to the one that Jesus is praying to, which is the Father.
God has always existed, is everywhere at once, transcends time, has a mind, heart and will, can create out of nothing, and knows everything about everything, including what everyone is thinking and feeling, and the future. Our reality is in the mind of the Father because that is the only way that He can have all those qualities and power. He is the Father because He is the Father of our reality and everything in it. The Father, who has always existed, must have created many different realities, and ours is just one of many. In our reality with nothing in it and nothing happening, there is no concept of time. When He placed a living, thinking, willful, and feeling being in it and calls him His Son, time begain because there is now a time before, during, and after this event. The Father interacts with the realities that He creates through His Holy Spirit, which in Isaiah 63: 9-10 is referred to as "the angel of His presence". Angel because it can be sent, and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. In our reality, the Father fills (indwells) His Son with His Holy Spirit so that the Father resides (is present) in the Son's being. The Son has his own mind, feeling, and will, but because he loves the Father, he surrenders his will to the Father. The Son is the image of the invisible God in our reality because the Father is in him (his being) and he obeys the Father. Col 1: 15-17 The Father, through His Holy Spirit that is in His Son, creates everything that is in our reality. In 1 Cor 15: 27, because the Father loves His Son, all creation in our reality is placed under the Son's feet, which makes the Son Lord and God of all creation in our reality, but the Father is the Lord and God of all realities. If you think of the Holy Spirit as a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled, scripture starts making sense. When this happens, the being becomes One with the Father.
The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled in order to communicate with, speak through, motivate, and empower to perform His will.
When Jesus ascended back to the Father to get glorified, he received a glorified spiritual body made up of the spiritual souls of those chosen by the Father to fill this body. The person gets baptized in the name of the Father when the Father fills the person with such extreme repentance for their sins that he turns to God for forgiveness. The person is baptized in the name of the Son when he puts his faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins. When Jesus baptizes him in the name of the Holy Spirit, he receives a portal through which the Son can enter his being, along with the Father who resides in the Son. That is when the person is born again. Together, they change the motivation for living of this person from love of self first to love of God first and all others as he loves himself. That is how we get perfected. When the motivation for every thought and action is loving God by trying to do His will, and loving our neighbors through our actions, we will have been perfected because we would be devoid of any negative thoughts and feelings. John 13: 33-35, John 14: 23
With all this in mind, let's explore scripture to see if my explanation about the Holy Spirit makes sense.
Col 1: 24-29 The mystery that Paul is referring to is that God's glory is His Holy Spirit. The hope of glory is the hope of the portal through which Christ can enter our beings. John 14: 20
Eph 2: 18 Through Christ in us, we have direct access to both the Son and the Father who is in the Son. John 14: 6
John 14: 7-11 The Father, who is in Jesus's being through the Holy Spirit that descended on him during John's water baptism, speaks directly through Jesus to Philip. Luke 4:1, John 12: 49-50, and John 17: 8
John 14: 13 The Father is glorified in the Son because when the Son enters a being through the Holy Spirit, so does the Father who is in him. When we pray to the Father in Jesus's name to bless a loved one with the Holy Spirit, he will do it.
Just a thought: God Almighty does not get sent. He is the sender. Jesus Christ himself said that he was sent by the Father. Also, in Heb 1: 4, the Son was made much better than the angels because he was the first and only being made directly by the Father, and for that reason he has a more excellent name and an inheritance. All other creation in our reality was accomplished by the Father through the Son. In Heb 1: 5-6, notice that the Father and Son relationship occurs twice; once in the beginning and again when the Son became human. " And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son, And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. The first-begotten was begotten again and worshiped again when he became human. The Father has put all creation under the Son's feet and has made him Lord and God of all creation in our reality.

 

[GWH]

No problem, it's nice to actually "discuss".

Two thirds of the angels don't need a salvation history as they were never lost. I don't think they needed or that God ever promised them a Saviour (Messiah) in the same way He did us. For one thing, Lucifer did not condemn the one third who followed him to a hopeless position like Adam did to us. They all chose of their own free will to follow Lucifer whereas we did not choose to be born sinners. There is also the fact that they all stood face to face with the Lord. Even after they fell we see glimpses of them before the Lord. Job.1:6 1Kings 22:21 I'm also inclined to think the nature of their essence being different to ours (ie.spirit v. soul) that necessitates dealing differently with them to some degree.

I disagree with this. Yes, Lucifer was the influencer (or is that influenza ) as he was in the Garden but I do not believe he made them sinners in the same way Adam did to us. Our error is in our flesh which we got from Adam. Jn.3:6 We have no control over that whatsoever. I do see it as a distinction with a difference.

I was only looking at from the perspective of scripture and the early Church. They did not have all the written word as we do. The individual churches were still in a learning curve. As to what others do/did with it much later? I don't see the relevance. One of the things I love about scripture is it never whitewashes peoples mistakes. I think they simply got it wrong early on.

Yes, but sin didn't come through the woman and has never done so since. It is the male sperm that causes the genetic formation of the sin nature (corruption). The Holy Spirit supplied the material needed to fertilize Mary's ovum. Considering God can make a whole body from a bit of clay, it's not a hardship. Mary is most definitely the mother of Jesus' body.

If you are meaning it in the sense of the following, I can live with that.

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

For the sake of time it might be better we just stick with the angels and your "general theology of relationality". (I like that. )

Also we are about to have a cyclone supposedly hit within the next 24 hours so if you don't hear from me, don't worry, I will get back to you when I can. It's not a big one (Cat.1 or maybe Cat.2) so I'm not expecting too much trouble.

In your first paragraph you stated that you do not believe the angels had a salvation history, but then you speculate about such!
The lack of a meaningful difference is indicated by both angels and humans having MFW, which makes each soul responsible and
unable to blame Adam or Satan for their sins. I agree that per Genesis 3:4 Satan is the source of the world's spiritual sickness,
and I like the fact that you can see the early Christians still had tendencies toward tradition until they learned the full Gospel.
However, I think you should ponder Genesis 3:6-8 (cf. Gen. 2:20b-25) until you see that both A&E were partners in crime.
There is no justification for viewing ova as purer than sperm. BTW, I meant to say the HS implanted a fertilized ovum/zygote.

Actually, I think we may be about to exhaust this topic, so I will consider amending the website in light of our discussion.
Good luck with the cyclone/hurricane!

 

[sawdust]

In your first paragraph you stated that you do not believe the angels had a salvation history, but then you speculate about such!
The lack of a meaningful difference is indicated by both angels and humans having MFW, which makes each soul responsible and
unable to blame Adam or Satan for their sins. I agree that per Genesis 3:4 Satan is the source of the world's spiritual sickness,
and I like the fact that you can see the early Christians still had tendencies toward tradition until they learned the full Gospel.
However, I think you should ponder Genesis 3:6-8 (cf. Gen. 2:20b-25) until you see that both A&E were partners in crime.
There is no justification for viewing ova as purer than sperm. BTW, I meant to say the HS implanted a fertilized ovum/zygote.

Actually, I think we may be about to exhaust this topic, so I will consider amending the website in light of our discussion.
Good luck with the cyclone/hurricane!

I said two thirds never needed salvation. Not sure what speculation you think I said. You wondered if our Messiah is also their Messiah and I said I didn't think God would have ever made that promise.

I did give you the reasons why the male sperm is responsible for the sin nature and not the female ova. I don't mind if you disagree with the reasoning but to say there is no justification I think is pushing it a little far especially when you don't give an argument as to why my reasoning is faulty. Also I never blamed Adam for our sins, I said he was responsible for our sin nature. The sin nature, or what scripture calls "another law" Rom.7:23, is not the same thing as our personal sins we commit, we are responsible for those.

The worst of the cyclone should hit in about 10 hours so I may not be able to respond tomorrow. We will see how well the infrastructure stands.