How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?

[GWH]

I said two thirds never needed salvation. Not sure what speculation you think I said. You wondered if our Messiah is also their Messiah and I said I didn't think God would have ever made that promise.

I did give you the reasons why the male sperm is responsible for the sin nature and not the female ova. I don't mind if you disagree with the reasoning but to say there is no justification I think is pushing it a little far especially when you don't give an argument as to why my reasoning is faulty. Also I never blamed Adam for our sins, I said he was responsible for our sin nature. The sin nature, or what scripture calls "another law" Rom.7:23, is not the same thing as our personal sins we commit, we are responsible for those.

The worst of the cyclone should hit in about 10 hours so I may not be able to respond tomorrow. We will see how well the infrastructure stands.

I think it is speculation to say that any imperfect creature does not need salvation.
And thus I reasonably infer that all creatures including angels must need Messiah.

Similarly, regarding our speculation about Mary's insemination, I think it more reasonable
to think that the HS implanted an untainted specially created zygote rather than using Mary's egg
and specially creating only the sperm.

I am glad you do not use our sin nature as an excuse to blame Adam for our sins,
but I think Eve should be given equal credit for our sin nature because they were one flesh.

Hope to hear from you tomorrow with no problem.
Have a nice night.

 

[sawdust]

I think it is speculation to say that any imperfect creature does not need salvation.

Maybe but it is speculation based on rational thought. What would the Elect angels, who have never in their whole history deviated from the will of God, need saving from?

That all creation needs God (Father, Son and Spirit) is a given. He is Life and nothing could exist or remain apart from Him but I can find no reason to say certain angels need saving.

Similarly, regarding our speculation about Mary's insemination, I think it more reasonable
to think that the HS implanted an untainted specially created zygote rather than using Mary's egg
and specially creating only the sperm.

I'm just going to have to disagree with you on that point. Considering sin entered this world through one man (not a couple) Rom.5:12 and God did not hold Eve responsible for it's entry, I find it highly unlikely she can pass on the corruption we find in our bodies.

I am glad you do not use our sin nature as an excuse to blame Adam for our sins,
but I think Eve should be given equal credit for our sin nature because they were one flesh.

Depends how you interpret "one flesh". My jury is still out but at this stage I believe it is a reference to procreation not to some "spiritual" unity. As far as I am concerned it is saying the two, when put together through the sex act (which is marriage), shall produce another body. ie "the two make one". The reason I think this is because marriage is the foundation of growing a community, not only in numbers, but also in strength of character and it comes in relation to it "not being good for man to be alone". We are, by nature, communal.

ps. the worst of the cyclone is past and they don't expect it to do a 180 so good news. It's still dark out so can't see the extent of damage yet but it looks minimal at this stage, mostly leaf debris scattered around. My neighbour's Christmas lights around his house are still working so couldn't be too bad.

 

[GWH]

Maybe but it is speculation based on rational thought. What would the Elect angels, who have never in their whole history deviated from the will of God, need saving from?

That all creation needs God (Father, Son and Spirit) is a given. He is Life and nothing could exist or remain apart from Him but I can find no reason to say certain angels need saving.

I'm just going to have to disagree with you on that point. Considering sin entered this world through one man (not a couple) Rom.5:12 and God did not hold Eve responsible for it's entry, I find it highly unlikely she can pass on the corruption we find in our bodies.

Depends how you interpret "one flesh". My jury is still out but at this stage I believe it is a reference to procreation not to some "spiritual" unity. As far as I am concerned it is saying the two, when put together through the sex act (which is marriage), shall produce another body. ie "the two make one". The reason I think this is because marriage is the foundation of growing a community, not only in numbers, but also in strength of character and it comes in relation to it "not being good for man to be alone". We are, by nature, communal.

ps. the worst of the cyclone is past and they don't expect it to do a 180 so good news. It's still dark out so can't see the extent of damage yet but it looks minimal at this stage, mostly leaf debris scattered around. My neighbour's Christmas lights around his house are still working so couldn't be too bad.

We do not know that elect angels never sinned, but being imperfect creatures, it is more rational to speculate that they can/do.
Satan's demons need saving, but it is too late for them I suppose.

Re Paul saying God did not hold Eve co-responsible for the first sin, I think he overlooked the import of Gen. 2:21-24 & 3:1-8,
perhaps due to his Pharisaic training. Also, he said in 1Tim. 2:14 that Eve sinned first. I have no idea why you think it logical
to believe the sperm is corrupt but not the ovum. Do you have a Roman Catholic background?

"One flesh" speaks of both physical and spiritual union, just as water baptism represents Spirit baptism.

Glad to hear that the damage from the cyclone was not very severe! Hopefully the heat and humidity
from the returning sunshine also is not too bad.

 

[GWH]

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. "thee, the only true God" and "thou" refer to the one that Jesus is praying to, which is the Father.
God has always existed, is everywhere at once, transcends time, has a mind, heart and will, can create out of nothing, and knows everything about everything, including what everyone is thinking and feeling, and the future. Our reality is in the mind of the Father because that is the only way that He can have all those qualities and power. He is the Father because He is the Father of our reality and everything in it. The Father, who has always existed, must have created many different realities, and ours is just one of many. In our reality with nothing in it and nothing happening, there is no concept of time. When He placed a living, thinking, willful, and feeling being in it and calls him His Son, time begain because there is now a time before, during, and after this event. The Father interacts with the realities that He creates through His Holy Spirit, which in Isaiah 63: 9-10 is referred to as "the angel of His presence". Angel because it can be sent, and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. In our reality, the Father fills (indwells) His Son with His Holy Spirit so that the Father resides (is present) in the Son's being. The Son has his own mind, feeling, and will, but because he loves the Father, he surrenders his will to the Father. The Son is the image of the invisible God in our reality because the Father is in him (his being) and he obeys the Father. Col 1: 15-17 The Father, through His Holy Spirit that is in His Son, creates everything that is in our reality. In 1 Cor 15: 27, because the Father loves His Son, all creation in our reality is placed under the Son's feet, which makes the Son Lord and God of all creation in our reality, but the Father is the Lord and God of all realities. If you think of the Holy Spirit as a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled, scripture starts making sense. When this happens, the being becomes One with the Father.
The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled in order to communicate with, speak through, motivate, and empower to perform His will.
When Jesus ascended back to the Father to get glorified, he received a glorified spiritual body made up of the spiritual souls of those chosen by the Father to fill this body. The person gets baptized in the name of the Father when the Father fills the person with such extreme repentance for their sins that he turns to God for forgiveness. The person is baptized in the name of the Son when he puts his faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins. When Jesus baptizes him in the name of the Holy Spirit, he receives a portal through which the Son can enter his being, along with the Father who resides in the Son. That is when the person is born again. Together, they change the motivation for living of this person from love of self first to love of God first and all others as he loves himself. That is how we get perfected. When the motivation for every thought and action is loving God by trying to do His will, and loving our neighbors through our actions, we will have been perfected because we would be devoid of any negative thoughts and feelings. John 13: 33-35, John 14: 23
With all this in mind, let's explore scripture to see if my explanation about the Holy Spirit makes sense.
Col 1: 24-29 The mystery that Paul is referring to is that God's glory is His Holy Spirit. The hope of glory is the hope of the portal through which Christ can enter our beings. John 14: 20
Eph 2: 18 Through Christ in us, we have direct access to both the Son and the Father who is in the Son. John 14: 6
John 14: 7-11 The Father, who is in Jesus's being through the Holy Spirit that descended on him during John's water baptism, speaks directly through Jesus to Philip. Luke 4:1, John 12: 49-50, and John 17: 8
John 14: 13 The Father is glorified in the Son because when the Son enters a being through the Holy Spirit, so does the Father who is in him. When we pray to the Father in Jesus's name to bless a loved one with the Holy Spirit, he will do it.
Just a thought: God Almighty does not get sent. He is the sender. Jesus Christ himself said that he was sent by the Father. Also, in Heb 1: 4, the Son was made much better than the angels because he was the first and only being made directly by the Father, and for that reason he has a more excellent name and an inheritance. All other creation in our reality was accomplished by the Father through the Son. In Heb 1: 5-6, notice that the Father and Son relationship occurs twice; once in the beginning and again when the Son became human. " And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son, And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. The first-begotten was begotten again and worshiped again when he became human. The Father has put all creation under the Son's feet and has made him Lord and God of all creation in our reality.

Yes, God may have created many different or alternate realities or dimensions. When you say "portal", I think "way to heaven".
The question being discussed is whether there are multiple angels or was the "angel of His presence" or HS described as many,
just as the one HS indwells every believer/saint.

 

[GWH]

I discovered that the four living creatures in Rev. 4:6-8 apparently were inspired by those described in Ezek. 1:5-10:

"In the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man,
but each of them had four faces and four wings. Their legs were straight; their feet were like those
of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man.
All four of them had faces and wings, and their wings touched one another; Each one went straight ahead;
they did not turn as they moved. Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man,
and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."

Ezekiel goes on to describe the creatures as having wheels beside them that moved with them (Ezek. 1:11-21).

Following Cam's advice to look at David Chilton's "Days of Vengeance", beginning with the discussion of Rev. 4 on page 151,
he states that the 24 elders (a term mentioned 12 times in Rev.) reflect the OT 24 divisions of priests in 1Chron. 24, and their
crowns indicate reigning with Christ in the Melchizedek priesthood (cf. Heb. 7:1-2).

On p. 158 Chilton says the four creatures represent the four quarters of the Zodiac and four parts of REV:
Lion/Leo (REV 4-7), Bull [ox?]/Taurus (REV 2-3), Man/Aquarius (REV 15-22), Eagle/Scorpio[?] (REV 8-14).
Chilton notes that Gordon Wenham observed that Scripture refers to the stars as the heavenly host in Deut. 4:19.

Regarding the Eagle, Google says: The eagle is not a zodiac sign, but it is the symbol for the constellation Aquila and is also considered a symbol for the zodiac sign Scorpio. Aquila is a constellation, but it is not on the ecliptic, the path the sun follows through the sky, so it is not a zodiac constellation. The eagle represents Scorpio's ability to rise above and gain a higher perspective, in addition to the more common symbol of the scorpion.

In Rev. 5:1 John sees the person sitting on the throne (Rev. 4:2) holding a scroll sealed with 7 seals, which Chilton cites Zahn
for saying the 7 seals indicate the document is a testament or statement/revelation of the writer's will. (Exo. 32:15 states that
the Ten Commandment tablets also were inscribed on the front and back.)

In Rev. 5:5 an elder describes the One who is qualified to unseal the scroll in terms of Judah, the Lion tribe of Israel (Gen. 49:9-10),
whose descendant David commissioned his son Solomon to build the earthly house of God/temple (1Chron. 28:2-7). However,
John identifies the Lion with the Lamb of God, slain at the crux of salvation history (Rev. 5:6).

Chilton makes the interesting point (on p. 171) that the Lion/Lamb is also described as the Root of David instead of the shoot or branch (Isa. 11:1, Jer. 23:5, Zech. 3:8), which can indicate that in divine chronology the future determines the meaning of the past.

TBC...

 

[GWH]

Regarding Jesus being the Root of David, I noticed that Rev. 22:16b describes Him as being both the Root and the Offspring or branch,
which seems parallel to being "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End" in Rev. 22:13.

Regarding angels and the HS, I also noticed that Rev. 22:16a says, "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches."

Does this verse equate the angel with the HS or replace the HS with the angel?

 

[GWH]

Following Cam's advice to look at David Chilton's "Days of Vengeance", beginning with the discussion of Rev. 4 on page 151,
he states that the 24 elders (a term mentioned 12 times in Rev.) reflect the OT 24 divisions of priests in 1Chron. 24, and their
crowns indicate reigning with Christ in the Melchizedek priesthood (cf. Heb. 7:1-2).

On p. 158 Chilton says the four creatures represent the four quarters of the Zodiac and four parts of REV:
Lion/Leo (REV 4-7), Bull [ox?]/Taurus (REV 2-3), Man/Aquarius (REV 15-22), Eagle/Scorpio[?] (REV 8-14).
Chilton notes that Gordon Wenham observed that Scripture refers to the stars as the heavenly host in Deut. 4:19.

Regarding the Eagle, Google says: The eagle is not a zodiac sign, but it is the symbol for the constellation Aquila and is also considered a symbol for the zodiac sign Scorpio. Aquila is a constellation, but it is not on the ecliptic, the path the sun follows through the sky, so it is not a zodiac constellation. The eagle represents Scorpio's ability to rise above and gain a higher perspective, in addition to the more common symbol of the scorpion.

In Rev. 5:1 John sees the person sitting on the throne (Rev. 4:2) holding a scroll sealed with 7 seals, which Chilton cites Zahn
for saying the 7 seals indicate the document is a testament or statement/revelation of the writer's will. (Exo. 32:15 states that
the Ten Commandment tablets also were inscribed on the front and back.)

In Rev. 5:5 an elder describes the One who is qualified to unseal the scroll in terms of Judah, the Lion tribe of Israel (Gen. 49:9-10),
whose descendant David commissioned his son Solomon to build the earthly house of God/temple (1Chron. 28:2-7). However,
John identifies the Lion with the Lamb of God, slain at the crux of salvation history (Rev. 5:6).

Chilton makes the interesting point (on p. 171) that the Lion/Lamb is also described as the Root of David instead of the shoot or branch (Isa. 11:1, Jer. 23:5, Zech. 3:8), which can indicate that in divine chronology the future determines the meaning of the past.

TBC...

In Rev. 5:6 the slain Lamb is described as having seven horns, which Chilton thinks refers to heralding judgment, and seven eyes,
which are identified with the seven spirits of God mentioned in Rev. 3:1/Zech. 6:5. Chilton notes that the creation story in Genesis
stated seven times that God saw it was good.

In Rev. 5:7-10 the Lamb took the scroll, whereupon the 24 elders fell down before Him while holding harps. They also had bowls of incense, which are identified with the prayers of the saints (cf. Luke 1:10 & Psa. 141:2). They sang a new song (cf. Psa. 98:1-3 & Isa. 42:10-13), praising the Lamb whose death enabled all people to be God's kingdom, serve God and reign on earth. Mention of the kingdom and priests echoes Rev. 1:6, and the new song surely refers to the New Covenant in Christ, so the earth probably means the new earth that will replace the old earth per Rev. 21:1.

 

[GWH]

In Rev. 5:11-14 over 100,000 angels surrounding the throne, living creatures and elders sing "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" (the seven items indicate divinity in GW),
whereupon every being in the entire creation also sang a rejoinder, the four living creatures said "Amen", and the elders fell down and worshipped (reminiscent of Rev. 4:11, cf. Phil. 2:10-11, 1Tim. 1:17 & Heb. 2:7=Psa. 8:5).

The meaning of this passage in the context of the other NT verses cited is easy to understand, although "wealth" refers to spiritual blessings or riches in the vein of love and salvation to heaven rather than to gold or other physical matter (1Tim. 6:17, Jam. 5:2-3,
Matt. 6:19, Eph. 2:7 & 3:8, Col. 1:27 & 2:2).

 

[GWH]

In Rev. 6:1-17 the Lamb opened six seals. The first four seals are associated with what are called the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse", which apparently alludes to Zechariah 6:1-7 (cf. Hab. 3:4-12):

1. The rider on a white horse held a bow, wore a crown and rode forth in conquest.
2. The rider on a red horse wielded a large sword and was given power to promote war on earth.
3. The rider on a black horse held scales, and a voice spoke about wages and not damaging the oil and wine.
4. The rider on a sickly pale horse (the Greek word means green) was named Death, and Hades followed him
as he caused death over a fourth of the earth.

When the fifth seal was opened, the souls of those who had been slain because of their testifying to the word of God are described as being under or below the altar, where the blood of sacrifices would drain into a reservoir or container. They cried out for divine justice and were given white robes (cleansed of blood) as they were told to wait until the history of martyrdom was completed. "Days of Vengeance" notes that "how long?" was asked in numerous Psalms as a plea for divine justice (cf. Psa. 6:3, 13:1-2, 35:17, 74:10, 80:4, 89:46, 90:13 & 94:3-4). It is not unchristian to pray for divine wrath, because we know God's justice is righteous or fair (e.g., Rom. 2:5-11).

When the sixth seal was opened, cataclysmic events occurred that are mentioned in various Scriptures, including:

1. a great earthquake (Exo. 19:18, Psa. 18:7, Isa. 13:13-14, Nah. 1:5),
2. the sun turned black (Exo. 10:21-23, Job 9:7, Isa. 5:30, Ezek. 32:7, Joel 2:10, Amos 8:9, Mic. 3:6),
3. the moon became blood red (Job 25:5, Isa. 13:10, Ezek. 32:7, Joel, 1:10&31),
4. the stars fell from the sky (Job 9:7, Eccl. 12:2, Isa. 13:10, Ezek. 32:8, Dan. 8:10, Joel 2:10),
5. the sky receded like a scroll (Isa. 34:4, 51:6, Psa. 102:25-26),
6. mountains and islands were dislodged (Job 9:5-6, Isa. 41:5, Ezek. 38:20, Nah. 1:4-8, Zeph. 2:11),
7. every earthling sought shelter in caves and hiding places from the wrath of the Lamb (Hos. 10:6-8, Nah. 1:6, Mal. 3:2).

This description echoes that of Jesus in Matt. 24:15-30 (cf. Mark 13:14-27 & Luke 21:20-27).

 

[GWH]

In Rev. 7:1-17 four angels were seen standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back harmful winds of judgment until a seal was put on the foreheads of the servants of God. (Chilton notes that nature does not function apart from God but rather is sustained by Him and that Ezek. 9:3-4 mentions a man wearing linen putting a protective mark on the foreheads of those who lamented over the sins of Jerusalem. This mark was tav, the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet that is in the shape of a cross.)

Another angel came up from the east (cf. Isa. 41:2&25, 46:11, Ezek. 43:1-4, Mal. 4:2) and announced that God's servants included 12,000 souls from each of the 12 tribes of Israel for a total of 144,000. (Chilton opines that the number refers to the size of Israel's military divisions in Numbers 31:4&48 as well as to the remnant of Jacob that was to be saved per Isaiah 10:20-22 and Romans 9:27-28 and which was scattered among the nations in James 1:1. He cites Austin Farrer for his analysis of the order of the tribes, in which Manasseh is substituted for Dan and Levi is demoted in agreement with Hebrews 7:11-14).

Then a great multitude of people from every Gentile nation and culture appeared, wearing white robes and holding palm branches. (Presumably they also are sealed. At this point Chilton chides Calvinists for stressing the depravity of man more than the saving efficacy of God.) The white robes signify salvation, and the palm branches point to Jesus (cf. Matt. 21:8-9). They cried out, "Salvation belongs to our God... and to the Lamb", whereupon the angels who were standing around the throne fell face down and said, "Amen! Praise, glory, wisdom, thanks, honor, power and strength be to God for ever. Amen!" (cf. Rev. 4:11, 5:12-13, Jude 1:25, 1Tim. 1:17). One of the elders said that the Gentiles were those who endured the great tribulation and made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb, who will lead them to living water, and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

 

[GWH]

In Rev. 8:1-13 the Lamb opened the seventh seal, and after half an hour of silence the seven angels standing before God were given seven trumpets (cf. the seven priests in 1Chron. 15:24 & Neh. 12:41). The motif of seven angels occurs in Rev. 1-3, 8-11, 14 & 15-16. Presumably during the period of silence is when an angel with a golden censer offered incense at the altar along with the prayers of all the saints (cf. Rev. 5:8). Then the angel took fire from the altar and hurled it to earth as lightning (cf. Exo. 19:16-19), whereupon the angels began sounding their trumpets in turn as follows:

First - hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled to earth, causing a third of it to burn up (cf. Psa. 18:6-15).
Second - a huge mountain was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea turned to blood as a third of the sea creatures died
(cf. Exo. 7:17-21).
Third - a star named Wormwood (Bitterness, cf. Jer. 9:15 & 23:15) fell to earth causing a third of the rivers and springs to become bitter (cf. Isa. 14:12-15).
Fourth - a third of the sun, moon and stars became dark, and a third of the day and night were without light (cf. Exo. 10:21-23, Isa. 13:10, Ezek. 32:7, Joel 2:10).

Then an eagle flew through the air cried out, "Woe to the inhabitants of earth because of the coming trumpet blasts!" An eagle represents judgment for the enemies of God (Deut. 28:49-52, Hos. 8:1), but salvation for those who love God (Deut. 32:9-11, Isa. 40:31,
Rev. 12:14).

 

[Ouch]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Angels have been around forever but never mentioned in the NT and the Holy Ghost wasn't poored out in the NT Acts 2.

GOD sent Angels in OT face to face with the fokes it stopped and now JESUS through Holy Ghost took over.

BUT I have heard storying of people helping others and disappearing, so I do believe they are still around.

The purpose of the Holy Ghost was for JESUS to give us daily personal guidance.

I don't see the difficulty?

I can see the difficulty if you have never received it.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

This is what they saw and heard.

Acts 2,
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

We need to follow JESUS everyday and everyday.

 

[GWH]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Angels have been around forever but never mentioned in the NT and the Holy Ghost wasn't poored out in the NT Acts 2.
GOD sent Angels in OT face to face with the fokes it stopped and now JESUS through Holy Ghost took over.
BUT I have heard storying of people helping others and disappearing, so I do believe they are still around.
The purpose of the Holy Ghost was for JESUS to give us daily personal guidance.
I don't see the difficulty?
I can see the difficulty if you have never received it.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
This is what they saw and heard.
Acts 2,
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
We need to follow JESUS everyday and everyday.

The term "HS" is not in Revelation, although the "Spirit" is found in the phrase "hear what the Spirit says to the churches" and in "The Spirit and the Bride" (Rev. 22:17). John introduced the term "HS" in his gospel (John 14:26), although in John 14:16, 15:26 and 16:13 he is called "the Spirit of truth". In the first letter by John he is referred to in several ways: as an/the "anointing" (1John 2:20 & 27), "what you have heard" (1John 2:24), "love" (1John 3:1), "the Spirit" (1John 3:24), the "Spirit of God" (1John 4:2), the "Spirit of truth" (1John 4:6), "God's Spirit" (1John 4:13), and "the Spirit who testifies" or "God's testimony" (1John 5:6-10).

The possible difficulty is harmonizing the role of the HS and angels, because they seem to compete. For example, in the passage that was just presented (Rev. 8), why is God's judgment portrayed as being accomplished via angels rather than by God's Spirit? Why did God create angels? What is their salvation history? (IOW, does Heb. 1:14 = John 14:26 = Rom. 5:5?)

I know the answer is not revealed, so we must await learning it in heaven, but until then I wonder whether references to angels in both OT & NT Scripture including Revelation (beginning with the one in Rev. 1:1), the seven spirits (Rev. 1:4), the four creatures (Rev. 4:6), etcetera were figurative ways of describing the HS. The God powerful enough to create the world with His Word/Spirit does not need angels to do anything, although I do not deny that it is possible God created them as separate non-divine beings. Whatever He wills is fine with me!

My main concern and reason for wondering is because I am sure we should not be tempted to let our angelology become angelolatry. They are not to be worshipped or glorified instead of the triune God (Col. 2:18). Nor should we become so obsessed with trying to figure out what is obscure in Revelation that we neglect the plain truth in the rest of the NT.

 

[GWH]

In Rev. 9:1-12 the fifth angel sounded his trumpet and a fallen star received the key to the Abyss, from which smoke rose. In Luke 10:18 Jesus said that he saw Satan fall from heaven to earth like lightning, and in Luke 8:31 the demons begged Jesus not to send them into the Abyss, which is mentioned seven times in Revelation (Rev. 9:1,2,11, 11:7, 17:8, 20:1,3), and is the term described as "deep waters" in Gen. 1:2 (cf. Gen. 7:11, 49:25, Deut. 33:13, Psa. 33:7, 36:6, 77:16, 106:9, Isa. 44:27, etc.). In Revelation it represents hell, the domain of the dragon Satan (Rev. 11:7 & 17:8, cf. the leviathan in Job 41:1&31, Psa. 148:7) and the place for the dead and demonic angels (Rom. 10:7, 2Pet. 2:4, Jude 6).

The smoke from the Abyss darkened the sky and produced locusts like scorpions, who were given power to agonize only those without the seal of God on their foreheads for five months, so they would seek death but not find it. This reference to locusts reminds the reader of the plague described in Exo. 10:12-15 and of the invading armies cited in Jer. 51:27.

The locust-scorpions looked like warhorses with faces resembling humans, hair like women's, teeth like lions' (cf. Joel 1:4-6), tails like scorpions' stingers, and their heads were crowned with gold, their breastplates were like iron and their wings sounded like thunderous chariots charging into battle. Their king was the angel of the Abyss, whose name was Abaddon in Hebrew or Apollyon in Greek,
both meaning “Destroyer/Destruction” (Job 26:6, 28:22, 31:12, Psa. 88:11, Pro. 15:11, 27:20, cf. 1Cor. 10:10, Heb. 2:14). It should be noted that God allows Satan to serve the cause of justice within limits He establishes. Two other woes would follow this one.

 

[GWH]

The angel of the Lord jibed with the Holy Spirit in the stories of Jesus' birth (cf. Isa. 7:14). Luke’s account is the longest, beginning with an angel of the Lord named Gabriel announcing to a priest named Zechariah the pregnancy of his wife Elizabeth (with a son who should be named John, who would be filled with the HS from the womb) and making him mute because of his doubt that this would happen (Luke 1:5-20).

Six months later Gabriel also visited Mary to announce her impending pregnancy with a son who should be named Jesus, meaning the Anointed One (referring to Messiah, who would save his believers from their sins per Matt. 1:21), and who would be called the “Son of the Most High”.

Luke also tells about Elizabeth being filled with the HS as Mary greeted her when arriving for a three month visit, about Mary voicing praise to the Lord, and about Zechariah also being filled with the HS and praising the Lord for a son who would be a prophet and prepare the way for the Lord by pronouncing forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:26-79).

Matthew’s account of the birth of Jesus skips from the angel’s annunciation to the arrival of three Magi from the east (Matt. 1:24-2:12), but Luke mentions the journey of Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem and the annunciation of an angel of the Lord to shepherds about the birth of Christ the Lord and their visit to the manger in a stable (Luke 2:1-20).

Luke also tells about Joseph and Mary taking Jesus to the temple in Jerusalem for consecration to the Lord and being greeted by an old man named Simeon to whom the HS had revealed he would see the Lord’s Messiah and light to the Gentiles, after which an elderly prophetess named Anna also greeted them and thanked God for their son, the redemption of Israel. After this Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth rather than escaping from Herod to Egypt until his death as Matthew relates (Matt. 2:13-23).

 

[snowbound]

Angels often are present when the holy spirit is administered. That may tell us something.

 

[Jordon]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

Holy angels are called holy angels to, when your blessed with the holy spirit your your blessed with the fruits of the spirit, where as holy angels will be sent to deliver a message, for many reasons, one being God likes to make people believe more than anything, and will make people believe how he sees fit, and I don't know but they probably don't use the word jibe.

Revelation 14:10

Mark 3:22

 

[GWH]

Angels often are present when the holy spirit is administered. That may tell us something.

Well, the Scriptures do not tell me enough about angels,
so I look forward to having my questions about them answered in heaven.

 

[GWH]

Holy angels are called holy angels to, when your blessed with the holy spirit your your blessed with the fruits of the spirit, where as holy angels will be sent to deliver a message, for many reasons, one being God likes to make people believe more than anything, and will make people believe how he sees fit, and I don't know but they probably don't use the word jibe.

Revelation 14:10
Mark 3:22

Not sure how the verses you cited help with jibing, but you hit upon the main area of competition per John 14-16,
which indicate that the main role of the HS is teaching GW, so what messages remain for angels to deliver?
Seems rather redundant to me.

 

[Jordon]

Not sure how the verses you cited help with jibing, but you hit upon the main area of competition per John 14-16,
which indicate that the main role of the HS is teaching GW, so what messages remain for angels to deliver?
Seems rather redundant to me.

Gods decides what message angels deliver, you don't have a choice in the matter, unless of course a person may think God's choice is no longer needed , but then free will can just about think about any jibe going when it's comes to there own will apparently

I believe many free willers blow there own trumpets, but when it comes to God's angel he tells them when to blow them. And did you know there's an angel trumpet that looks just like a little tulip