How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?

[Dino246]

2Pet. 3:8 answers your questions by indicating that 2,000 years is like 2 days with the Lord.

Unfortunately you win today’s prize for the worst misrepresentation of Scripture.

Peter did not write about two days; he wrote about one. He echoed, but inverted, Psalm 90:4 which says,

“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.”

The point of both passages is that God is not limited by linear time the way we are. Neither gives an unambiguous equivalence.

 

[GWH]

Angels do not take the place of the Holy Spirit for they cannot benefit a saint like the Holy Spirit.
But they help out the saints by way of protection and ministering.
It seems like God wants the angels to be involved with the saints.
If Lucifer did not rebel God would of never created people.
Since God has the plan to give salvation then all that is part of His kingdom will help whether angels or people which saints minister to saints.
The Spirit gives peace, love, joy, and a sound mind, which the angels cannot do.
We are saved by receiving the Spirit so then we have a relationship with God and the blood gets us there something the angels can never do.
Among other things the Spirit does that the angels cannot help us with.
But the angels have their function being a part of God's kingdom.
The truth is we do not need to have the angels help since we are with God but He wants them to be involved.
Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
The angels ministered unto the man Christ Jesus who is God manifest in flesh, the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and without sin that cannot change.
So He would not need the help of angels but God wants them to be involved.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands.
Jesus is made better than the angels for His deity is God but the flesh, the man Christ Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels.
And since the angels are greater than flesh they minister and have a benefit there.
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
The angels protect babies spiritually.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
The angels protected Israel from evil spirits.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
God cast Satan out of the 3rd heaven but the angels will defeat the devils and cast them to earth moving forward the plan of God to defeat this wicked world.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Jesus obtained a glorified body that is greater than the body of an angel.
When the saints receive their glorified body they will be greater than an angel.
Angels are servants of the saints.

I agree there is Scriptural support for the understandings of angels that you listed,
but why would God's Holy Spirit duplicate ministries that He can perform Himself?

And why would God employ legions of angels to wage war when He is able to defeat Satan
merely by willing such? (Rev. 1:12-18, 19:11-15)

I realize we will not learn the answer to these questions until we get to heaven.

 

[GWH]

Unfortunately you win today’s prize for the worst misrepresentation of Scripture.

Peter did not write about two days; he wrote about one. He echoed, but inverted, Psalm 90:4 which says,

“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.”

The point of both passages is that God is not limited by linear time the way we are. Neither gives an unambiguous equivalence.

And that was exactly my point, so what was misrepresented?!

 

[Cameron143]

2Pet. 3:8 answers your questions by indicating that 2,000 years is like 2 days with the Lord.
The second coming and judgment day were coming shortly (Heb. 9:28).

But the text doesn't refer to days. The scripture gives specific details...shortly, at hand. How many at hand's or shortly's in a thousand years? The text speaks of imminency. If you miss this, you can't understand the purpose of Revelation. Revelation speaks of something getting ready to occur, and is meant to forwarn those who are blessed to know it is coming. Anything big happen shortly after Jesus' death?

 

[GWH]

But the text doesn't refer to days. The scripture gives specific details...shortly, at hand.
How many at hand's or shortly's in a thousand years? The text speaks of imminency.
If you miss this, you can't understand the purpose of Revelation.
Revelation speaks of something getting ready to occur, and is meant to forwarn those
who are blessed to know it is coming. Anything big happen shortly after Jesus' death?

Before answering the last question, let us review what I have said:

{{{I understand the purpose of REV to be warning sinners of their need to repent and be saved to heaven per Rev. 1:3,
"Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it,
because the time [of the final judgment] is near."

Judgment regarding final destiny whether heaven or hell. (Rev. 20:10-15)
All souls are in view. (Rev. 20:11-15)
Near/when is “soon” which for me will be within twenty years. (Rev. 22:20)

I do not believe that "the time is near" (v.3) and "every eye will see him, including those who pierced him" (v.7a) do not speak of the
1st century because Jesus did not come again with everyone seeing him and mourning because of him.

2Pet. 3:8 answers your questions by indicating that 2,000 years is like 2 days with the Lord.
The second coming and judgment day were coming shortly (Heb. 9:28). }}}

You said 2Pet. 3:8 "doesn't refer to days", but it says "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years".
Thus, 2,000 years = 2 days.

You asked whether anything big happened shortly after Jesus' death?
Yes, Christ's resurrection.

 

[Cameron143]

Before answering the last question, let us review what I have said:

{{{I understand the purpose of REV to be warning sinners of their need to repent and be saved to heaven per Rev. 1:3,
"Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it,
because the time [of the final judgment] is near."

Judgment regarding final destiny whether heaven or hell. (Rev. 20:10-15)
All souls are in view. (Rev. 20:11-15)
Near/when is “soon” which for me will be within twenty years. (Rev. 22:20)

I do not believe that "the time is near" (v.3) and "every eye will see him, including those who pierced him" (v.7a) do not speak of the
1st century because Jesus did not come again with everyone seeing him and mourning because of him.

2Pet. 3:8 answers your questions by indicating that 2,000 years is like 2 days with the Lord.
The second coming and judgment day were coming shortly (Heb. 9:28). }}}

You said 2Pet. 3:8 "doesn't refer to days", but it says "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years".
Thus, 2,000 years = 2 days.

You asked whether anything big happened shortly after Jesus' death?
Yes, Christ's resurrection.

How about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. This is what the book of Revelation is all about. Read Matthew 21:43. Who is the kingdom taken from? Who is it given to? Why?

 

[GWH]

How about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. This is what the book of Revelation is all about. Read Matthew 21:43. Who is the kingdom taken from? Who is it given to? Why?

I do not see how the destruction of Jerusalem jibes with Rev. 1:7.
Re Matt. 21:43, the KOG is taken from the Jews and given to those whose saving faith produces loving fruit.
Why? Because Jewish traditions had perverted God's plan of salvation (Matt. 9:13).

 

[Cameron143]

I do not see how the destruction of Jerusalem jibes with Rev. 1:7.
Re Matt. 21:43, the KOG is taken from the Jews and given to those whose saving faith produces loving fruit.
Why? Because Jewish traditions had perverted God's plan of salvation (Matt. 9:13).

I'll just cut to the chase. The book of Revelation is about the ending of a covenant, just as the book of Deuteronomy is about the beginning of a covenant. They have identical outlines and material. The only difference is that the book of Deuteronomy introduces the covenant and the book of Revelation tells what is coming because Israel failed to keep the terms of the covenant.

 

[GWH]

I'll just cut to the chase. The book of Revelation is about the ending of a covenant, just as the book of Deuteronomy is about the beginning of a covenant. They have identical outlines and material. The only difference is that the book of Deuteronomy introduces the covenant and the book of Revelation tells what is coming because Israel failed to keep the terms of the covenant.

Okay, but I do not see how what you say answers the questions I had in post #85.
I was expecting you to pick up where we had left off by explaining chapter 4 and following.

 

[Cameron143]

Okay, but I do not see how what you say answers the questions I had in post #85.
I was expecting you to pick up where we had left off by explaining chapter 4 and following.

I'm trying to set the foundation for future understanding. Understanding the purpose and how it is structured aids understanding the different parts. For example, if one does a basic outline of the book of Revelation:
Preamble...chapter 1
Historical Prologue...2-3
Stipulations or terms...4-7
Sanctions...8-14
Succession Arrangements...15-22

Note that these correspond to:
The vision of Christ
The seven letters
The seven seals
The seven trumpets
The seven chalice

Also, corresponds to the book of Deuteronomy:
Preamble...1:1-5
Historical Prologue...1:6-4:49
Stipulations...5:1-26:19
Sanctions...27:1-30:20
Succession Arrangements...31:1-34:12

The original old covenant was written as a contract between God and Israel. It was written the way many later contracts were written by kings and their vassals. In the preamble, the lordship of the king is identified. This is followed by a reminder of the lord's previous relationship with the vassal and emphasizes the blessings bestowed. Following this, the obligations of the vassal are given, as well as the blessings or curses which will attend their behavior. Finally, arrangements are made for the succession of the contract.

With this understanding, the book of Revelation can be more easily understood.

 

[GWH]

I understand the purpose of Revelation and the first three chapters,
but that leaves us to understand the imagery in the rest regarding the role of angels and the HS
.
In chapter four the imagery can be understood as deriving from OT passages:

Rev. 4:5 & 5:6 - The seven spirits of God are identified as the spirits mentioned in Isa. 11:2,: "The Spirit of the Lord (1), of wisdom (2), of understanding (3), of counsel (4), of might (5), of the knowledge (6) and fear of the Lord (7).

Rev. 4:6, 5:14 & 7:11 - The four living creatures are mentioned in Ezek. 4:6 and identified as referring to the cherubim
in Ezek. 9:3 &10:1-22, who resemble the seraphim mentioned in Isa. 6:2-4, who exclaimed "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty."

However, I am still baffled by the rest of Rev until chapter 21.

Rev. 6:1-14 - The six seals include: Rider with a bow on a white horse (v.1-2); Rider with a sword on a red horse (v.3-4);
Rider with scales on a black horse (v.5-6); Death on a pale horse followed by Hades (v.7-8); martyrs were given white robes (v.9-11);
an earthquake and heaven-shake caused people to seek shelter in caves (v.12-14).

Rev. 7:4-8 - The 144,000 represent those who are sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev. 8 & 9 - The opening of the 7th seal (in 8:1-2) began events accompanying six angels blowing trumpets: 1. fire burned a third of the earth; 2. a third of creatures in the sea died and ships were destroyed; 3. a third of fresh water springs and rivers became bitter;
4. a third of the sun, moon and stars turned dark; 5. locusts stung like scorpions those without the seal of God on their foreheads;
6. four angels were sent to kill a third of humanity.

Rev. 10 - There is a pause while the writer ate a little scroll.

Rev. 11:3-12 - Two witnesses prophesied for 1,260 days.

Rev. 11:15-19 - The seventh angel blew his trumpet, whereupon God's temple in heaven was revealed.

Rev. 12 - A woman bore a son, who went up to heaven, where war was waged between angels led by Michael and other
angels led by a dragon.

Rev. 13 - Two beasts were given power by the dragon to war against God's saints.

Rev. 14 - The Lamb is mentioned and six angels perform various tasks.

Rev. 15 & 16 - Seven more angels deliver seven final plagues by pouring out their bowls.

Rev. 17 & 18 - The punishment of Babylon is described.

Rev. 19 - God's victory and the Lamb's wedding are celebrated.

Rev. 20 - A thousand year imprisonment of Satan followed by his release and final consignment to hell is cited.

Is anyone able to explain chapters 8-20?
(No one has been able to do so up to this point in time, so take your time.)

Rev. 21 - The new Jerusalem is described.

Rev. 22 - The second coming of Jesus is anticipated.

I get these two chapters. Yay!

Okay, I thought it helpful to repost this outline so it will be near yours, as we proceed to examine each part.

 

[GWH]

The four horsemen in chapter 6 are easily identified as representing conquest, war, judgment and death-hell.
They have no OT predecessors, although horses are mentioned in Zech. 1:8 & 6:1-8 as going throughout the earth,
with the one going north giving God's Spirit rest. This could refer to Europe, where the preaching of Paul bore fruit.

What do y'all think?

 

[sawdust]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

The Holy Spirit is God and the angels are servants of God. What is there to be confused about?

You don't get confused about the role of the Lord Jesus who is God and the Church who is His body do you?

 

[GWH]

The Holy Spirit is God and the angels are servants of God. What is there to be confused about?
You don't get confused about the role of the Lord Jesus who is God and the Church who is His body do you?

I understand that God relates to believers via the incarnate Word/Lord JC and via the indwelling Word/HS,
and I understand that we who are believers are servants of God.

I do not understand where angels come in (Gen. 3:24), why they are needed (Col. 1:16), when they were created (Neh. 9:6), etc.
Are they robots or free to sin? (Heb. 1:4-14) Do they have their own salvation history? Are they spirits superior to mortals? (2Pet. 2:11)
Are they merely messengers without being mediators (1Tim. 2:3-5)? Their function seems superfluous and somewhat competitive with the role of the HS. (Psa. 91:11-12)

You have to admit that the Bible has no clear doctrine of angels/angelology but only vague references (Luke 2:9-15),
so there is good reason to have these questions and the only reason you are less confused is because you have less curiosity.

I don't even think Satan is necessary for having the evil option, and I certainly don't know why some angels prefer hell.
It will be interesting to find out about angels if we can associate with them in heaven.

 

[GWH]

I just attended a men's breakfast where the topic of the morning was angels,
and everyone was just as confused as I am--and the Holy Spirit was not mentioned once!
(I did not want to point that out to the group because I was just visiting.)

 

[sawdust]

so there is good reason to have these questions and the only reason you are less confused is because you have less curiosity.

Really? Maybe it's more a matter of you not asking any of those questions in your OP to which I responded.

You simply stated you were confused about the role of the Holy Spirit and the angels.

I'm not confused about such matters any more than I am confused about the role of the Lord Jesus and the Church. One is God the other are servants and you understood that yourself.

It seems to me you are simply confused about the role and place of angels within creation based on your other questions and God's dealings with them.

Maybe God doesn't want you to know but deliberately keeps some things hidden so we learn to mind our own business and not poke our noses into places they are not welcome.

But as to your other questions.

I do not understand where angels come in (Gen. 3:24), why they are needed (Col. 1:16), when they were created (Neh. 9:6), etc.
Are they robots or free to sin? (Heb. 1:4-14) Do they have their own salvation history? Are they spirits superior to mortals? (2Pet. 2:11)
Are they merely messengers without being mediators (1Tim. 2:3-5)? Their function seems superfluous and somewhat competitive with the role of the HS. (Psa. 91:11-12)

Angels and Demons (although technically that is a misnomer as it is a description of their purpose, ie. messengers not what they are ie. spirits) were created before the world was laid.

Job 38:4-7
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

As I said, there purpose is in the name, they are messengers, servants of God. They do whatever He assigns them to do.

As to being needed? Is man needed or wanted?

Seeing as two thirds got kicked out of heaven and Satan is called a murderer and a liar, I think it obvious they can sin.

The lake of fire was created for the fallen angels Matt.25:41 so unless you hold a Reformed view that says God created certain beings just so He can "flex His muscles" and destroy them it would seem to me, knowing the just and loving God that He is, there would have been some sort of period given for repentance. Afterall, the Lord has been known to overlook ignorance. Acts 17:30

Doesn't say they are superior, it says they are greater, stronger and more powerful. The President is greater than you, there are men stronger and more powerful than me. Neither case makes them superior in the sense of being better. If that is what you think 2Pet.2:11 is saying, then I think you are mistaken.

Where are they called mediators?

You don't get a dog and bark yourself. A purposeless life is no life. God knows He cannot create life and then give it no purpose. Without purpose, spirits and man alike, would drown in hopelessness.

Considering man was made just a little lower than the angels, I believe we can look to God's purpose and His dealings with us and get a reasonable glimpse of His purpose and dealings with spirits to understand how it works. As to any specifics? If the Lord wants you to know, go ask and it shall be answered, unless it's His secret for now.

 

[GWH]

Really? Maybe it's more a matter of you not asking any of those questions in your OP to which I responded.

You simply stated you were confused about the role of the Holy Spirit and the angels.

I'm not confused about such matters any more than I am confused about the role of the Lord Jesus and the Church. One is God the other are servants and you understood that yourself.

It seems to me you are simply confused about the role and place of angels within creation based on your other questions and God's dealings with them.

Maybe God doesn't want you to know but deliberately keeps some things hidden so we learn to mind our own business and not poke our noses into places they are not welcome.

But as to your other questions.



Angels and Demons (although technically that is a misnomer as it is a description of their purpose, ie. messengers not what they are ie. spirits) were created before the world was laid.

Job 38:4-7
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

As I said, there purpose is in the name, they are messengers, servants of God. They do whatever He assigns them to do.

As to being needed? Is man needed or wanted?

Seeing as two thirds got kicked out of heaven and Satan is called a murderer and a liar, I think it obvious they can sin.

The lake of fire was created for the fallen angels Matt.25:41 so unless you hold a Reformed view that says God created certain beings just so He can "flex His muscles" and destroy them it would seem to me, knowing the just and loving God that He is, there would have been some sort of period given for repentance. Afterall, the Lord has been known to overlook ignorance. Acts 17:30

Doesn't say they are superior, it says they are greater, stronger and more powerful. The President is greater than you, there are men stronger and more powerful than me. Neither case makes them superior in the sense of being better. If that is what you think 2Pet.2:11 is saying, then I think you are mistaken.

Where are they called mediators?
You don't get a dog and bark yourself. A purposeless life is no life. God knows He cannot create life and then give it no purpose. Without purpose, spirits and man alike, would drown in hopelessness.

Considering man was made just a little lower than the angels, I believe we can look to God's purpose and His dealings with us and get a reasonable glimpse of His purpose and dealings with spirits to understand how it works. As to any specifics? If the Lord wants you to know, go ask and it shall be answered, unless it's His secret for now.

I appreciate your comments and generally agree, but I would point you to post #33 where I expressed the gist of my hypothesis:

If the OT is interpreted in light of the NT following the examples of Jesus and Paul, then perhaps angels can be viewed as preparing the way for the Holy Spirit and angels become less important as the Holy Spirit becomes greater, as John said with regard to Jesus in John 3:30.

I suppose we will need to wait until heaven to understand how angels fit into God's plan for man, but just as the NT superseded the OT per HB, it is not a matter of replacing the angels but of keeping them in their proper place, which is NOT as mediators or competitors for divine glory.

Do you appreciate my concern? (Especially in light of my experience at the men's breakfast where the HS was absent?)

 

[sawdust]

I appreciate your comments and generally agree, but I would point you to post #33 where I expressed the gist of my hypothesis:

If the OT is interpreted in light of the NT following the examples of Jesus and Paul, then perhaps angels can be viewed as preparing the way for the Holy Spirit and angels become less important as the Holy Spirit becomes greater, as John said with regard to Jesus in John 3:30.

I suppose we will need to wait until heaven to understand how angels fit into God's plan for man, but just as the NT superseded the OT per HB, it is not a matter of replacing the angels but of keeping them in their proper place, which is NOT as mediators or competitors for divine glory.

You do understand the Holy Spirit is God don't you? How on earth does He become greater? You can't get any bigger than being God mate.

I don't understand where you get this idea of mediators or competitors?

Do you appreciate my concern? (Especially in light of my experience at the men's breakfast where the HS was absent?)

Not really. If they were talking about angels why would they have to talk about the Spirit specifically, He's not an angel? Did they speak of the Father or Son?

I will go check out your post #33 and see if I can make more sense of what you are worried about.

 

[sawdust]

@GWH

I will go check out your post #33 and see if I can make more sense of what you are worried about.

Ok I read post #33 but I'm afraid I'm still none the wiser.

You seem to be under the impression that angels are somewhat superfluous, at least, that is the impression I get.

God likes variety as seen in creation. He created macro and quantum physics. I have a hunch we could not cope in a quantum environment as we are in our physical bodies but I bet angels as spirits could.

Sure there are lots of things we don't know about the angels but to me that is the wonder of God and something I look forward to. Afterall, there is so much more to know and we can't imagine most of it so no need to get in a twist over what we don't know.

 

[GWH]

You do understand the Holy Spirit is God don't you? How on earth does He become greater? You can't get any bigger than being God mate.

I don't understand where you get this idea of mediators or competitors?
Not really. If they were talking about angels why would they have to talk about the Spirit specifically, He's not an angel? Did they speak of the Father or Son?

I will go check out your post #33 and see if I can make more sense of what you are worried about.

No, they did not glorify the Father, Son or HS, which worries me, because angels were in effect competing for God's glory.
At this point perhaps it would be more helpful for you to look at post #22 to see where I am coming from.

Hasta manana.