Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Philippians 3 verse 3; Colossians 2 verse 11; Romans 2 verse 29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

 

[studier]

False! Heart-held, heart-felt belief "is simply Scriptural"! Has God promised in the New Covenant made with his covenant people that He would equip them with a new volition or a new heart? Or has God promised to circumcise his chosen people's volitions or their hearts?

Volitional belief is commanded. It’s the required response to the Gospel and the Spirit’s convicting. In Romans 10, Paul says the message of faith - the Gospel - is near: “in your mouth and in your heart,” meaning it can be believed and confessed. He says this belief is “in the heart,” and it precedes justification. It is volitional, obedient, and stands in contrast to the disobedient and opposing. The New Covenant promises do not precede volitional belief - they follow it.

 

[Magenta]

It's not clear on my mind exactly what a heart of flesh is.

Is it clear in your mind ?

Well the heart of flesh could mean a renewed heart of flesh now that the existing heart of flesh has been tamed by the heart of stone

The new heart (of flesh) is the one we can love God with. Not the incurably wicked one (of stone) man is born with.

 

[Rufus]

They don't like some of those parables, since they prefer to have the bad tree bringing forth good fruit, with the stony ground
of man's heart receiving and growing unto faith the seed of God's Word even though a multitude of verses speak against such.

Glad you broached the topic of parables. I have one to toss out to all FWers -- most especially to the promulgator of the so-called "volitional belief" heresy. Now watch how FWers will go spastic on us and try to perform awesome feats of mental gymnastics.

FWers, Listen Up! In the Parable of the Four Soils, v. 23 reads"

Matt 13:23
23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
NIV

The two questions I have are these:

1. What do the various "soils" in this parable represent?
2. How did the man in v.23 come across "good soil" since no man is inherently good, according to Jesus (Mk 10:18)?

 

[Magenta]

Volitional belief is commanded.

Romans 11 v 32 God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.

 

[Jordon]

God's Word does not say that. Not even close. The heart of stone is replaced with one of flesh, for the reason given in Deut 30:6.

We do have something to go on that where stones are mentioned in the bible also wisdom is attached to those stones

Such as how those stones where able to adorn , means make more beautiful

So not only do stones hold wisdom they also hold Gods will

 

[Rufus]

Volitional belief is commanded. It’s the required response to the Gospel and the Spirit’s convicting. In Romans 10, Paul says the message of faith - the Gospel - is near: “in your mouth and in your heart,” meaning it can be believed and confessed. He says this belief is “in the heart,” and it precedes justification. It is volitional, obedient, and stands in contrast to the disobedient and opposing. The New Covenant promises do not precede volitional belief - they follow it.

The New Covenant promises cannot precede anything that doesn't biblically exist.

So, which is it already: Mere "volitional belief" or heart belief wherein ALL man's faculties are engaged when coming to faith?

Also, who needs the NC promises since the sons of men, apparently, do quite well without it -- having the innate, natural ability to believe and repent all on their own?

 

[Magenta]

Glad you broached the topic of parables. I have one to toss out to all FWers -- most especially to the promulgator of the so-called "volitional belief" heresy. Now watch how FWers will go spastic on us and try to perform awesome feats of mental gymnastics.

FWers, Listen Up! In the Parable of the Four Soils, v. 23 reads"

Matt 13:23
23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
NIV

The two questions I have are these:

1. What do the various "soils" in this parable represent?
2. How did the man in v.23 come across "good soil" since no man is inherently good, according to Jesus (Mk 10:18)?

Yes, and he understands it, very important, since the unregenerated man does NOT understand.

But we shall see some gymnastics anyways...

 

[rogerg]

What's placed in the heart of mankind is a spiritual heart of stone.

Agree with Magenta

How could that spiritual heart of stone die ? If it's been place in the heart, because something has been placed as God remove it,

A spiritual heart of stone was never spiritually alive to die - just like the people it is within are not spiritually alive

They never had a spiritual heart of stone before they where born in the garden or did they ?

I believe it was acquired when the ate they fruit of the tree

If of course a person only sees a spiritual heart of stone as a bad thing. Then of course where at a loss in understanding.

Is that a question or a statement?

 

[Magenta]

We do have something to go on that where stones are mentioned in the bible also wisdom is attached to those stones

Such as how those stones where able to adorn , means make more beautiful

So not only do stones hold wisdom they also hold Gods will

You are talking about different stones. Totally unrelated. Stick with the fact that man is born with
an incurably wicked heart that NEEDS replacing = the heart of stone is replaced with one of flesh so
the man may love God as commanded~ the man with a heart of stone cannot submit to or obey God.

One of a few of those "cannots" the FWer changes to "can."

 

[Blain]

Soo... you're suggesting that less than 100% of the "few" find the narrow way? You seem to be assuming that God intended for all people to find that narrow way. But...if the "few" are indeed God's elect, then I'd say God has a 100% success rate going for Him.

What I am saying is that God desires that all come to Christ and the knowledge of the turth but few actually do so the 100 percent is not limited to the few that do find it but to all who have heard the gospel and the turth some hear and receive some hear and recieve but end up falling away and others completely reject it.

 

[BillyBob]

What's your thoughts on all people being born with heart of stone.

God must perform a very radical surgery, where the heart is ripped out and replaced! Until this is done man simply does not have the ability nor desire to know the things of God. This must be done before he can hear, believe and trust the only God and His Son, Christ our savior.

 

[Blain]

So God is 100% successful but also less than 100% successful?

No he is not 100 porcent successful because he leaves the ability to accept his truth or not and so the parable of the sower of seeds is perfect for this situation as you know some seeds landed on good soil some fell on rocky ground and some on barren ground this is the symbolism of those who hear the gospel

 

[NightTwister]

No he is not 100 porcent successful because he leaves the ability to accept his truth or not and so the parable of the sower of seeds is perfect for this situation as you know some seeds landed on good soil some fell on rocky ground and some on barren ground this is the symbolism of those who hear the gospel

My God is 100% successful in everything He does. Your God is too small.

 

[Magenta]

The free will camp assumes, with no supporting text and contrary to many verses that evidence the opposite, that the man of flesh is free to choose, and will believe, that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and to which he is inherently opposed with his heart of stone. There is simply no getting around the fact that this is the core of their belief, and it flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches about the natural man who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light, blinded to truth and under the power and influence of Satan: he serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death, not life. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, his incurably wicked heart hates God, and hears the gospel message as foolishness. Praise the Lord if He has set you free!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you believe, as RDBD does, that you personally are under the control of the evil one? That Satan sits on the throne of your heart as he does with unbelievers?

Rufus ... spreading your lies reveals you must be under the control of the evil one.

I never stated what you claim.
.

 

[studier]

To convict or convince is not merely to present truth but to fully persuade to belief in the truth. You can't say one is actually convinced if they aren't fully persuaded. To fall short of conviction is simply to inform. If someone is under conviction, they are not only informed, but wholly won over.

To convict or convince is to bring someone to the point of choosing - to believe and receive, or to remain in unbelief and reject. To be under conviction is to be confronted with truth and pressed to respond - not yet “wholly won over,” which assumes the choice has been made.

NKJ John 16:8 "And when He has come, He will convict-elegchō the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] ἐλέγχω (elegchō)
1. to scrutinize or examine carefully, bring to light, expose, set forth
2. to bring a pers. to the point of recognizing wrongdoing, convict, convince someone of someth., point someth. out to someone
3. to express strong disapproval of someone’s action, reprove, correct
4. to penalize for wrongdoing, punish, discipline

BDAG places John16:8 under definition #2.

It may be helpful for you to utilize some quality references.

I along with BDAG at minimum reject your defining words again to establish unbiblical arguments. When the Gospel and the Spirit bring a person to the point of recognizing the Truth, they have a choice to make.

 

[Rufus]

rolleyes ... when you sin, it's not God tempting you ...

James 1:

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


vs 13 – God does not tempt anyone with evil ...

vs 14-15 – every one is temped with evil when he or she is drawn away from God through the lusts of the flesh ... the world which lies in wickedness influences the flesh and we are drawn away ... enticed ...


and God promises that He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness as we confess our sin in turning away from Him to the things of this world ... God is faithful and just for forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
.
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Why do you waste everyone's time and bandwidth by posting foolish non sequiturs? When and where did I say that God is tempting anyone? Moreover, a great deal of sin is derived from evil thoughts, intentions and desires from one's own wicked heart.

So...since you believe that Satan is currently controlling your "Christian" life, what's your game plan to escape from his clutches?

 

[Jordon]

Agree with Magenta



A spiritual heart of stone was never spiritually alive to die - just like the people it is within are not spiritually alive



I believe it was acquired when the ate they fruit of the tree



Is that a question or a statement?

A question can be seen as statement.

Nope this is more about a long discussion I had with my late mum.

It really made me think, that here we see people not spiritually alive been given a spiritual stone

For what purpose ? I asked my mum.

Well this is where my mum went in to weeks of study,

 

[Blain]

My God is 100% successful in everything He does. Your God is too small.

So the ones who hear the gospel but reject it then was he successful in that? do you not consider the parable of the sower to be truth?