Concerning the gift of tongues

[HeIsHere]

Yes it is.. and this is the historical background of the letter to Corinth. It's supporting the Word. That's just reading context.

Place, time, reason for writing etc.. can be gleaned from historical context.

Here is the thing..

1) The Corinth area was affected by paganism
2) That paganism included their own kind of tongue speaking
3) Paul did not mention exactly this kind.. but did admonish the Corinthians, through the Holy Spirit, to use tongue speaking with order and decency and for it to be clearly understood.
4) The Corinth church had other problems associated with paganism

So it would make sense that pagan tongue speaking was an issue for the church at Corinth.

I'll leave talking about the history here.. but it is important.. especially for the church at Corinth because it is a complex situation they were in.

I agree, and it has been demonstrated in experimental conditions that glossolalia can be learned.

So while, yes, a pagan practice, it does not mean is was from the devil, it is something that people can observe and mimic.

 

[Wansvic]

Strongly agree. What ResidentAlien states in Post 151 is at the core of this issue.

" Let's see some objective evidence (not babble that anyone can do)"

Speaking in tongues for personal edification is possible for all born again believers. Whereas, God uses those He chooses and are willing to speak a message in tongues in the church setting.

Receiving takes believing:
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance... And those who heard them were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?... Peter answered, this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit UPON ALL FLESH: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And it shall come to pass, that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved...

Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses...
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and HEAR... The Holy Ghost having taken up residence in their bodies initiated their speaking in unknown tongues.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO?

Peter's answer applies to all those living in the NT. The promise of receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is available to all who willing obey God's command. Those who do, take hold of what Jesus died to provide. Some receive the Holy Ghost before and others after calling on the name of Jesus when water baptized in the name of Jesus. God knows those willing to accept the truth when confronted with the Word. The account of Cornelius and others is a perfect example of this truth. (Acts 15:7-9) God knew they would obey Peter and be water baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 10:47-48)

"...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Acts 2:38-42


And least we forget:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: and it says; without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb. 11:6) And it is those who hunger and thirst after righteousness that shall be filled. (Matt. 5:6)

 

[CS1]

The Lord says also:
✝ Matthew 7:22

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?


Then you better look in the mirror, Guy, because Jesus also said those who judge will be judged by that same measure. You look at that
verse to attack and suggest that those of us are not saved?

✝ Matthew 7:23

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

FYI, it is Jesus saying that, not you. Your arrogance is very telling. You don't know anyone's walk here, do you? You are just a hateful person.

Jesus also said to those in Matthew 23:


15 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!
16 “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’

17 Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred?
18 And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. 19 How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. 21 And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. 22 And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne.
23 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. 24 Blind guides! You strain your water so you won’t accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel!

 

[Wansvic]

The problem is that the Bible is unclear regarding the problematic aspects of pentecostalism.
IOW, the pentecostalists do not have one verse in the entire Bible that states :

• The gift of tongues is for today
• The gift of tongues did not stop by the time the bible was completed

Instead, we have Jesus never mentioning tongues and Paul in 1Cor.14:14-15 commending them in one sentence then
condemning them in the next and then in the rest of the chapter condoning them if interpreted. Hence the confusion,
but at least it is clear that tongues are NOT required for salvation NOR the sign of being filled with the Spirit, which is love.

(I note that Inquisitor seems to agree with this view :^)

Actually, Jesus said,
"...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:15-18

And, Paul does not condemn tongues. He explains different aspects of speaking in tongues; proper circumstances when tongues is beneficial and for whom, etc.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Right, so Corinth was being admonished by Paul to overcome their issues.

They had many.

They were in process of addressing them, but not a Godly church.

Speaking in tongues didn't cause those issues though.

You accuse the Christian Corinthians with the gift of speaking in tongues of having pagan influences, but Paul actually told them:

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

God protected them and protects us from ungodly influences:

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

God even vindicates them against false accusations....like yours!

Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication from me, declares the Lord.

 

[Lamar]

Then you cannot be saved. Salvation is a supernatural encounter. Have you experienced salvation? Have you become a new creation in Christ? I am not saying you are not saved, however you really do not know what you are talking about.

BTW, it would seem that physical supernatural manifestations is somewhat contradictory

There is so many things wrong with your reply, I will have to break it down in order to respond.

1. "Then you cannot be saved."
I must witness a physical supernatural manifestation in order to be saved??? Is this what you meant?

2. "Salvation is a supernatural encounter. Have you experienced salvation?"
Personal claims of salvation are not supernatural , it is esoteric at best. Based on speculation and holds no weight here.
Do you have a glowing halo over your head as proof of your salvation or are you simply presuming?

3. "Have you become a new creation in Christ?"
Again, this is esoteric or based on presumption. What kind of argument are you attempting to present?

4. "I am not saying you are not saved, however you really do not know what you are talking about."
Meaningless.

5. "BTW, it would seem that physical supernatural manifestations is somewhat contradict"
What part of these three words contradict? Was not the miracles of Jesus physical supernatural manifestations? Are not the "tongues" that you profess physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit?

Your theology presumes much.

 

[ocean]

1. "Then you cannot be saved."
I must witness a physical supernatural manifestation in order to be saved??? Is this what you meant?

2. "Salvation is a supernatural encounter. Have you experienced salvation?"
Personal claims of salvation are not supernatural , it is esoteric at best. Based on speculation and holds no weight here.
Do you have a glowing halo over your head as proof of your salvation or are you simply presuming?

3. "Have you become a new creation in Christ?"
Again, this is esoteric or based on presumption. What kind of argument are you attempting to present?

Apparently you have no connection with the spiritual. If a person accepts Christ and it is a real conversion, they automatically become a member of God's family and a part of the spiritual realm. Salvation is a spiritual experience.

4. "I am not saying you are not saved, however you really do not know what you are talking about."
Meaningless.

To you perhaps...

5. "BTW, it would seem that physical supernatural manifestations is somewhat contradict"
What part of these three words contradict? Was not the miracles of Jesus physical supernatural manifestations? Are not the "tongues" that you profess physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit?

It appears you may have some kind of disconnect

 

[Wansvic]

We pray to God the Father. Why would He gift us with a "personal prayer language?" He is not confused with our known language.

God knows things that we should pray for that are unknown to us on the natural level.
Speaking in tongues is God's Spirit speaking directly to our renewed spirit for personal edification.

 

[wolfwint]

FYI, it is Jesus saying that, not you. Your arrogance is very telling. You don't know anyone's walk here, do you? You are just a hateful person.

Jesus also said to those in Matthew 23:


15 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!
16 “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’

17 Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred?
18 And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. 19 How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. 21 And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. 22 And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne.
23 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. 24 Blind guides! You strain your water so you won’t accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel!

I showed you only that wonders and miracles are not the proof that someone is right.
And it is correct our Lord said it, not me!

 

[Lamar]

Apparently you have no connection with the spiritual. If a person accepts Christ and it is a real conversion, they automatically become a member of God's family and a part of the spiritual realm. Salvation is a spiritual experience.

The disconnect is you not reading the comment. I clearly stated "claims of salvation" not salvation.

The rest is but a waste of time.

 

[ocean]

The disconnect is you not reading the comment. I clearly stated "claims of salvation" not salvation.

The rest is but a waste of time.

Well you claim to be a Christian. If you are, then what I said stands. Besides, that is not exactly how you worded it but whatever

Personal claims of salvation are not supernatural , it is esoteric at best. Based on speculation and holds no weight here.
Do you have a glowing halo over your head as proof of your salvation or are you simply presuming

Esoteric. You can't make this nonsense up.

 

[GWH]

Yes, they are also in charismatic movements.
The different is, that in charismatic/pentecostal doctrine it is claimed that these wonders and miracles are in the same way then during the apostolic time. This I questioning. Because obviously it is not!

What I believe is that God is still doing wonders and miracles today. Independ from any denomination. And obviously mainly in mission ministrie. For to show that he is the living God and his word is true.

Honestly, in a church of believers he need not to proof that he is the living God and that his word is true. Because a child of God knows this already.
Otherwise I would say something is wrong in the church.

Yes, and the main miracle God has always worked in believers is spiritual oneness/love.

 

[Dino246]

I believe my comment was cogent. I would enjoy reading your rebuttal.

This is from your earlier post:

"I agree with you that the subject matter is irrelevant but the reasoning seems to be spot on."

Your own assessment of your reasoning is irrelevant. In fact, your reasoning is faulty. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.

 

[GWH]

Well I know I have it because I have spoken to him personally and to Jesus himself face to face I got to meet both him and the holy spirit but I don't speak in tongues yet perhaps I have the gift and don't know it but it hasn't manifested in me yet

Such claims are merely that, and such testimony may actually serve to discourage those
who think they also should "know" Jesus face to face or walk with him by proof rather than by faith.
Rather than going gaga over glossalalia, Paul indicated that we should seek the more excellent way of love and witnessing with words.

 

[GWH]

Actually, Jesus said,
"...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:15-18

And, Paul does not condemn tongues. He explains different aspects of speaking in tongues; proper circumstances when tongues is beneficial and for whom, etc.

I wish people would read the footnote for MK 16:9-20, which indicates drinking poison, etc. is problematic.

 

[Kroogz]

The idea a person receives the Holy Ghost the moment they believe is not accurate.

We can do NOTHING without the Spirit. The idea a person does not receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation is not accurate.

Everything a believer does that is divine good, is through the Spirit. If a person is void of the Spirit they can do NOTHING but believe to be saved.

I can get dunked in a tank all day long and for years And it means nothing. But if I know How to walk in the Spirit and be filled with the Spirit......It is a righteous good deed.

 

[Blain]

Such claims are merely that, and such testimony may actually serve to discourage those
who think they also should "know" Jesus face to face or walk with him by proof rather than by faith.
Rather than going gaga over glossalalia, Paul indicated that we should seek the more excellent way of love and witnessing with words.

I would consider that it would encourage others knowing you can meet him face to face, when he becomes so real to you that you can invite him to your home and he actually comes that is when you truly have a relationship with him and if people understood this reality they would be encouraged to hear such testimony not discouraged

This is a level of closeness we all can have we just have to seek it it's not a hard thing you just need to understand he is a real person not just some God in the sky we pray to he is our best friend and as such will come and ddine with us or sit with us or even pray with us

 

[CS1]

I showed you only that wonders and miracles are not the proof that someone is right.
And it is correct our Lord said it, not me!

You are trying to use scripture to attack people based on the text, but we are not stupid. You used the text to suggest that we were not saved.

 

[CS1]

I showed you only that wonders and miracles are not the proof that someone is right.
And it is correct our Lord said it, not me!

You did not show me anything. Used one text to assume you were right. As stated, you don't know anything about the Pentacostel ministry or history. You only used regurgitated talking points. As you always do when this topic is discussed.

 

[Kroogz]

This is a level of closeness we all can have

We ALL DO have this level of closeness the moment we believe. He proves it to us through His Word to us.

The world needs signs and wonders and extraordinary things.

God Sent us His Word....Not saying it is not extraordinary, but He tells us to take Him at His word.
John 20:29
Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”