Is having faith/belief obeying?

[Believer08]

Part of an article by Garland M. Robinson

What does the Bible say about works? The Holy Spirit inspired James to write that Abraham was justified by works (James 2:21) and that Rahab was justified by works (James 2:25).

Abraham and Rahab were justified by works. That’s what the Bible plainly says. Justified means to be right, acceptable, before God. Both were right in God’s eyes because their faith was proven by their works (James 2:18). But, it was not by “faith only.” Their faith was acceptable WHEN they worked — WHEN they obeyed. Men can have faith all day long; but, as long as they sit back and do not act (work, obey) they will remain in their sins and will be lost. Their faith is useless, dead, barren, of no value.

Faith without works (obedience) is as dead and useless as it can be. Notice the words of the Holy Spirit: James 2:17, “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” James 2:20, “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” James 2:22, “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” James 2:24, “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” James 2:26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

In the book of Romans (chapters 4-5), Paul speaks of “faith” being essential to be saved. In the book of James (chapter 2), we read about “works” being essential in salvation. James is in perfect harmony with Paul. They compliment each other. Paul speaks of the necessity of faith and James speaks of the necessity of works. They do not conflict. Both are correct. Neither of them emphasize faith or works to the exclusion of the other. Man puts the word “only” at the end of faith — “faith only.” That is not what God says. Nor does he say that we are saved by works “only.”

One can believe and trust God with all their heart — as genuine and well meaning as he can be. But unless his faith is proven by his works (obedience), faith is useless (James 2:18,22). Likewise, one can work (obey God) with all their energy and might, but without faith, it is useless.

Faith and works go hand in hand. One is no good without the other. Jesus said, “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say” (Luke 6:46)? “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21). Jesus only saves those who obey him (Heb. 5:9; Matt. 7:21).

Doing, obeying, is the work that God demands we do (John 6:29). Peter told thousands on the day of Pentecost, “save yourselves” (Acts 2:40).

Paul emphasizes faith and James emphasizes works. Both are true.

Paul tells HOW one is made right before God — by faith.

James tells WHEN one is made right before God — by works (obedience).

Abraham was justified by faith WHEN he had offered Isaac (James 2:21).

Rahab was justified by faith WHEN she received the messengers and sent them out another way (James 2:25).

Hebrews chapter 11 says the same thing about faith and works. It gives examples of those who were right in God’s eyes. In every instance it is WHEN they acted (worked, obeyed). Notice these action verbs: Abel offered (v.4), Enoch pleased (v.5), Noah prepared (v.7), Abraham obeyed (v.8), sojourned (v.9), looked (v.10), offered (v.17), etc. etc. All these people were moved by their faith in God to DO what he commanded them to do. They did not sit back with folded hands and say “I can be saved by faith alone.”

Do you have enough faith in the Lord to do what he commands?

SEVERAL KINDS OF WORKS

Everything man does is a “work” — an action. We read of several “kinds” of works in the New Testament. There are:

(1) Works of man’s “righteousness” wherein he glories/trusts (Titus 3:5; Luke 18:11-14; Rom. 4:2). They are works wherein one may boast (Eph. 2:9). These works do not save (Matt. 7:22-23).

(2) Works of the Law of Moses (Gal. 2:16). They do not, and can not save (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20,28).

(3) Works that are evil (John 7:7; Rom. 13:12; Eph. 5:11; Col. 1:21; Titus 1:16). They obviously do not save.

(4) Works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:9-10). Wickedness, ungodliness condemns us. They don’t save.

(5) Works of God (Acts 2:11). These are works God does.

(6) Works of obedience that God commands man to do (John 6:28-29; James 2:14-27; Matt. 7:21). These are not man’s works, they are God’s works. These are works God commands man to DO in OBEDIENCE to Him (Matt. 10:32; 12:50; 18:3; 25:21; Mark 9:47; Luke 6:46; Heb. 13:21; James 1:22; 2:22; 1 Peter 4:2; 1 John 2:17; 1 John 3:22,24; Rev. 22:14).

The works that save are the works God commands us to obey. But, salvation is not by “works only,” just as salvation is not by “faith only.” There are many things involved in one’s salvation. On God’s part there is his love (John 3:16), grace (Titus 2:11), the sacrifice of his Son (Heb. 2:9), mercy (Luke 1:78), Jesus’ blood (Eph. 1:7), forgiveness (Acts 5:31), etc. etc. On man’s part there is faith (Rom. 3:25), repentance (Acts 17:30), confession (Rom. 10:9), baptism (Acts 2:38), works (James 2:24), obeying the truth (1 Peter 1:22), living faithful (Rev. 2:10), worshipping in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24), etc. etc.

What kind of works do not save? Works wherein man may boast. Works that God did not authorize.

What kinds of works do save? The works God commands us to do. Sinners can’t be saved without faith toward God AND obedience to His word. God only saves those who OBEY him (Matt. 7:21; Heb. 5:9).

If you were given a check for a million dollars, it is worthless if you just look at it. You have to do something (act, work). You have to take it to the bank and cash it. The one who gave it to you did their part; now, you have to do your part.

 

[Inquisitor]

@Inquisitor, in Acts 8, we read where Philip preached Jesus, and where the people of Samaria believed Philip, concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

However, they did not receive the Spirit in the miraculous sense until Peter and John came.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Thus, it is entirely biblical for one to believe and be baptized to be saved (Mk. 16:16), yet not have received the Spirit in the sense of having miraculous supernatural spiritual gifts by the laying on the hands of an inspired apostle, as evidence in Acts 8.

However, when one becomes a Christian, the Spirit dwells in their hearts the same way Christ does, by faith (Eph. 3:17). When we let the word of God dwell in us and live a Christian life. Romans 5:5, and possibly 2 Cor. 1:22 are good parallel passages. When they all obeyed the gospel and continued to obeyed God, they would have the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9) in their hearts in having the attitude or the way of life as a by walking according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:1). I believe that is also where Gal. 5:22-25 comes in.

The Spirit is a witness by His complete revealed sword, the word of God (Eph. 6:17), which has eyewitness accounts, and He serves as a witness when we obey the gospel and by bearing His fruit (Matt. 28:19, Titus 3:5, 1 Cor. 12:13, Gal. 5:22-23). He also serves as a witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16).

Having a genuine Spirit-led relationship by living and walking in the Spirit is how He also serves as a witness for our day (Gal. 5:25). And to have all of that one would also have receive His gift and promise (Acts 2:38-39).

Having said that, I agree that the Spirit is involved in conviction (Jn. 16:8), conversion (Jn. 3:5; 1 Cor. 12:13), justification and sanctification (1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Thess. 2:13) through His sword/word (Eph. 6:17; cf. Jn. 6:63) by the gospel of Christ, as one obeyed the truth through the Spirit and by/through the word of God (1 Pe. 1:22-23).

Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the WORD of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We find in the word of God that grace teaches us that we are to be denying ungodliness and worldly lusts and tells us that we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12)

When John wrote to the churches in Asia, he said “hear what the Spirit says” - Revelation 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22

Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Concerning about boast in Jesus and not my own obedience, I fully agree. Here’s a post of mine I wrote on another thread a few days ago concerning that.

We might differ on what needs to be obeyed and the reasons, but not the importance. In the end, we all believe obedience is essential. The issue becomes when we end up on not agreeing on what we mean by obedience. I’m not advocating obedience is the means and the only means of salvation without the need of grace, mercy, faith and love. When lost sinners obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to them (Rom. 6:17)..they expressed their faith and desire to be saved by God’s grace..humbly throwing themselves on His mercy. The doctrine that was delivered unto them was not something they earned or could boast about. It is of God. The gospel is of God (2 Thess. 2:14; Rom. 1:16). Thus, any form of obedience from a heart of faith that is motivated, driven, and fueled by the gospel call of salvation (Acts 2:39) cannot possibly be one as earning or boasting..and cannot be considered relying or trusting in self. The only boasting one can do is give glory to God (1 Cor. 1:13; 2 Cor. 10:17) for what all He did in providing the means of salvation. Not self. The only boasting/rejoicing one can do once they get saved is with the testimony of their conscience with godly sincerity…by the grace of God (2 Cor. 1:12). I’m not advocating a kind or type of obedience that is boastful in ourselves (Titus 3:5) or our own righteousness (Rom. 10:3), or one that is legalistic or Phariseeish. I’m not advocating a follow the rule obedience with zero faith, zero love and not depending on grace and mercy when we fall short. I’m advocating one that is of faith in submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3) through/by the power/authority of Christ Jesus our Lord (Mt. 28:18), who is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb. 5:9).

I also agree salvation/grace is a gift of God that cannot be earned through works (Eph. 2:9), as the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD (Ps. 37:39; cf. Ps. 3:8)

One long post that enables us to separate Faith and Obedience.

Which is contrary to what David Sproul stated; "Faith and obedience cannot be separated!, David Sproule, April 11, 2012".

One is the divine and perfect sacrifice and the other is your response to that GRACE that Jesus has granted us.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

 

[Inquisitor]

You stated the following.

so the way to believe in the Gospel and in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

What does that mean?

 

[Soyeong]

You stated the following.

so the way to believe in the Gospel and in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

What does that mean?

Do you agree that we can do works that express what we believe, such as with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 or with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works? If so, then there are works that we can do that express a belief in what Jesus accomplished through the cross, namely by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law.

 

[Believer08]

One long post that enables us to separate Faith and Obedience.

Nope. My post does no such a thing. If that’s what you got out of it then you either misread or misunderstood. My post clearly mentioned it showed either obedience, obeyed and how faith isn’t separated from it.

 

[Believer08]

One is the divine and perfect sacrifice and the other is your response to that GRACE that Jesus has granted us.

The perfect sacrifice would be the sacrifice of Christ. One must by faith then respond in obedience to God’s saving grace.

 

[Believer08]

Jesus’ sacrifice did bring us salvation, and it is by grace that He did (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:9). It is by faith we respond to the gospel call by obeying (2 Thess. 2:14; Acts 2:39), and it is through Jesus, whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God (Rom. 5:2)

 

[Believer08]

@Inquisitor, from my post: “I’m not advocating a kind or type of obedience that is boastful in ourselves (Titus 3:5) or our own righteousness (Rom. 10:3), or one that is legalistic or Phariseeish. I’m not advocating a follow the rule obedience with zero faith, zero love and not depending on grace and mercy when we fall short. I’m advocating one that is of faith in submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3) through/by the power/authority of Christ Jesus our Lord (Mt. 28:18), who is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb. 5:9).” [End of quote, bolded words for emphasis]

In summary: The kind of obedience is one that is of faith in submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3) through/by the power/authority of Christ Jesus our Lord (Mt. 28:18), who is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb. 5:9).”

In response, you wrote “One long post that enables us to separate Faith and Obedience.”

How do you get that out of my post..specifically, the section I posted above from it?

 

[mailmandan]

Yes. As far as RC are concerned, no one can claim to be saved until after death. That keeps them in fear and fear keeps them in subjection to the Roman Catholic organisation. I have nothing against Catholics. I've met some who put most Protestants to shame with their love for God. But the organisation has only a passing resemblance to true Christianity.

Prior to my conversion several years ago, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and had absolutely no assurance of salvation, lived in fear and bondage to insecurity and was miserable! After my conversion, I now have absolute assurance of salvation. (1 John 5:11-13) Praise God!

Christianity is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and not legalistic, religious bondage to an organization. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.

 

[Inquisitor]

@Inquisitor, from my post: “I’m not advocating a kind or type of obedience that is boastful in ourselves (Titus 3:5) or our own righteousness (Rom. 10:3), or one that is legalistic or Phariseeish. I’m not advocating a follow the rule obedience with zero faith, zero love and not depending on grace and mercy when we fall short. I’m advocating one that is of faith in submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3) through/by the power/authority of Christ Jesus our Lord (Mt. 28:18), who is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb. 5:9).” [End of quote, bolded words for emphasis]

In summary: The kind of obedience is one that is of faith in submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3) through/by the power/authority of Christ Jesus our Lord (Mt. 28:18), who is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb. 5:9).”

In response, you wrote “One long post that enables us to separate Faith and Obedience.”

How do you get that out of my post..specifically, the section I posted above from it?

This is the quotation you cited.

"Faith and obedience cannot be separated!, David Sproule, April 11, 2012".

If one is talking about salvation then there is a massive distinction between faith and obedience.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

Acts 16:30-31
And after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They said,
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

There is only one way to be saved and that belongs to Jesus Christ alone.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

This is important; by grace through faith and that is how you are saved.

Not a combination of faith and works or faith and obedience, nor faith and a love of the truth.

Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, of everything in Christianity.

Salvation is a gift given to those that believe in Jesus and that's the doctrine.

I will repeat the quotation above.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

 

[Believer08]

This is the quotation you cited.

"Faith and obedience cannot be separated!, David Sproule, April 11, 2012".

If one is talking about salvation then there is a massive distinction between faith and obedience.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

Acts 16:30-31
And after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They said,
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

There is only one way to be saved and that belongs to Jesus Christ alone.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

This is important; by grace through faith and that is how you are saved.

Not a combination of faith and works or faith and obedience, nor faith and a love of the truth.

Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, of everything in Christianity.

Salvation is a gift given to those that believe in Jesus and that's the doctrine.

I will repeat the quotation above.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

All those verses you cited involve obeying. When one believes, they are obeying. Not disobeying. When one biblically calls on the name of the Lord, they are obeying. Not disobeying. By faith, they are obeying. Also, faith/belief is a work (Jn. 6:28-29). Thus, those verses actually prove my point.

 

[Believer08]

@Inquisitor, “If one is talking about salvation then there is a massive distinction between faith and obedience.”

No, there is not. A faith that saves is a faith that obeys. I believe @TrustandObey would like the following scriptures…

In John 3:36, believe and obey are used interchangeably

Jn. 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

ASV Jn. 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

NASB Jn. 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Heb. 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Acts 6:7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Rom. 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ

Rom. 2:8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”

Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—

2 Thess. 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

Gal. 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

 

[Believer08]

In John, chapter 6. The disciples inquired of the Lord: “What must we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus responded: “This is the work of God that you believe on him who he has sent” (vv. 28-29). Observe that this “work of [from] God” required a human response — that of believing. Regarding the term “work,” as here used, J.H. Thayer commented: “... the works required and approved by God” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 248).

The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.” Elsewhere Jesus promised victory to those who “keep my works,” i.e., the works (commands) prescribed by him (Rev. 2:26). If, therefore, all “works” are excluded from the plan of salvation, faith itself would be eliminated, for it is identified as a work.
— Wayne Jackson, The Role of “Works” in God’s Plan of Redemption [End of the part of the article]

Concerning the word “work/works”, Thayer also has “in the same sense of Christ, Revelation 2:26”

Thus, the kind of works that save/justify would be those that are ordained or approved by God, which proves there are some kind of works that do justify.

Let’s sum it up

Faith/belief is a work (Jn. 6:29), which would mean believing and having faith in the gospel would be a work (1 Cor. 15:1-4)

Repentance is a work (Acts 26:20; Mt. 12:41 cf: Jonah 3:10)

Confessing Jesus is a work (Acts 8:37; Rom. 10:9; 1 Jn. 4:15, because it’s something you do)

Baptism is a work, but it’s a work of God (Col. 2:12).

Living for God is a having a faith that works through love (Gal. 5:6; 2 Cor. 5:14-15)

But none of these are our own works that we devised or came up with. God lovingly gave those works/commands for us. They are of Him, because He gave us them. As we obey them, we are allowing Him to work in us (Phil. 2:13), as they are His works/commands that He lovingly and graciously gave mankind to have salvation.

Humble surrender to God's will as revealed in His word shows total dependence on God and not on oneself.

A faith that works is one that is centered on doing the will of God.

For further consideration, take God's grace out of the equation, for just a minute. Now, how much would obedience to God save or avail? None. Now, take away all forms of obedience, which would include belief. Have only God's grace. Would you be saved without obedience? No. Thus, one is saved by God’s grace when they obey.

 

[GWH]

When you believes to have biblical faith in God, would they be obeying?

One cannot separate faith from obedience.

Faith and obedience cannot be separated!
David Sproule
April 11, 2012

In a book that emphasizes the importance of faith, the book of Romans makes some of the strongest arguments in Scripture for the inseparable connection between faith and obedience. The words “faith” or a form of “belief” occur more than 60 times in the book of Romans, and the words “obey” or “obedience” are found 20 times. It is especially powerful when God uses “faith” and “obedience” together at the beginning and end of this masterpiece of a book.

The first and last chapters both speak of “obedience to the faith” (1:5; 16:26). God not only emphasized “obedience to the faith” but also used “faith” and “obedience” interchangeably in these chapters. He told the brethren, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (1:8), then he told them, “Your obedience has become known to all” (16:29).

In God’s eyes, faith and obedience cannot be separated. With Him, one cannot exist without the other, for by one the other is perfected and found pleasing in God’s sight!

Yes, like peanut butter and jelly, in that order.
(Have you ever tried putting peanut butter on top of grape jelly? :^)

 

[Blain]

Yes, like peanut butter and jelly, in that order.
(Have you ever tried putting peanut butter on top of grape jelly? :^)

I prefer peanut butter and honey but if you try to put them on top of each other they mold together just like faith and obedience

 

[GWH]

I prefer peanut butter and honey but if you try to put them on top of each other they mold together just like faith and obedience

That combination is also good but putting the honey on first only works if you let it soak into the bread---
where does the bread come into that analogy?!

 

[Blain]

That combination is also good but putting the honey on first only works if you let it soak into the bread---
where does the bread come into that analogy?!

Well bread often represents his word and his word is sweet especially when one soaks in it

 

[mailmandan]

It’s not my obedience to myself. It is obedience to the faith i.e. the gospel that saves, all of which (the faith/gospel) is by God’s grace (Rom. 1:5, 16:26; 2 Thess. 1:8; Acts 6:7).

No faith, no obedience. Seeking salvation by works is neither of faith nor obedience. In regard to Romans 1:5; 16:26, now although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16) which is the act of obedience that saves, in contrast with not obeying the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) by refusing to believe the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God after conversion. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. (Romans 1:5)

Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith.. (Romans 5:1) not faith "and obedience/works" and we have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Jesus Christ first, having been made alive together with Christ, by grace through faith we were saved, not by works, then "unto" obedience/works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You have the cart before the horse.

 

[mailmandan]

@Inquisitor, In John 3:36, believe and obey are used interchangeably

Jn. 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

ASV Jn. 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

NASB Jn. 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I often hear works-salvationists cite John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works and call that believing. In regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son but obey by choosing to believe in the Son.

If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Heb. 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

In regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up from an unregenerate heart in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Rom. 2:8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Those who promote salvation by works will typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. If one reads Romans 2 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

I've noticed that works-salvationists will typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. In Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation/place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness.

Being servants of sin is put in the "past tense." Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness

In regard to Romans 6:17, before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness. *Hermeneutics.

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed as a legalistic prescription for salvation or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. For those who are trusting in works for salvation instead of in Jesus Christ alone, it's time for them to repent (change their mind) and believe the gospel.

2 Thess. 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who do not obey the gospel are those who have refused to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)

 

[homwardbound]

right faith requires the person to believe what God is saying if we do obedience will always be the fruit

But we have to first hear what it is he said. One simple example is

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If a person hears and actually believes this word of the lord is true what would they do ? But if they hear it and reject that it’s true and applicable then it wouldn’t lead them to do anything different based on any new belief they received

because they reject that “ if a sinner doesn’t repent and believe the gospel they will also perish like all other sinners “ if that’s not true in my mind there’s nothing to lead me to repentance

if I’m instead convinced by someone “ it doesn’t matter what Jesus said about it your already saved by faith you don’t need to heed his word , you don’t need to even hear what he really said in the gospel , your already saved by faith because he secretly chose you it has nothing to do with what you hear and believe and do like Jesus said don’t think that means you “

then im acting against any faith that was offered to me in tbe word of God I rejected

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christian’s all need to hear what Jesus said about salvstion on the gospel . Not just a sentance we pluck out but listen to his sermons and teachings regarding the kingdom to which we all belong who believe . That’s the truth of it all that the apostles were later witnessing but often we remove the things Jesus said about salvation and repeat lines we hear from people that are telling us the opposite thing

mans life and death is determined by whether they hear believe and obey the lord willingly and not begrudgingly as if it’s a labor and work to do good to tiebreaker people , which is ultimately all Jesus taught us to do treat other people with respect and decency brotherly love even .

To not steal from One another not lie about and to each other not sweat false witnessing and gossip Against others ot to commit adultery against one another not to harm and be violent and kill one another but instead to treat others with mercy and kindness compassion as if mankind is a family and as if we have compassion for others

but in our actions where it actually matters and has impact rather than just our words . Saying “ I love everyone “ is good but treating people with love is the way of Jesus and everlasting life

We also need to hear the part about what happens to those who reject the gospel and don’t obey it it’s also clear and present in the gospel and apostles writings after

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Truthfully if we hear what Jesus is saying and believe him the actions will follow and well Be walking by faith but the issue is and has been do we actually know what Jesus said in the gospel ? And do we actually believe it or reject it ?

the decision there will lead to the result

To me
I heard "I" God Love all
That is when the turn around began in me, and yet troubles and walking wrong ways happened also, of a life of adversities, wow! for me at least
God never left me, nor has forsaken me, as I have seen me do that to others and others do that to me.
God never has, this Love God gives to all, is , was my turning point to learn from God Father in Spirit and Truth personally and love all, by God's done work of Son for me and all the world.
Yes, obeying is not of me doing it, it is of God's Love from day one in completion of it all and God rested on the seventh day. hebrews (4:9-13)
God called me to rest, so he could do his done work of Love through me for all to see and Daddy get all the credit not me. Not that I am perfect at it, God is, learning, learned new daily and walking new daily, a practice turns into a habit, as a habit turns into a character, and then a trait becomes automatic, and love pours out the love of God from 1 Cor 13:4-7
So yes it is works to follow. The ? remains for me to discern in me is: what I am doing in work(s) is it the flesh in me or Father, Daddy, PaPa through me? Discern that one, I saw my depravedness. "I" need by Daddy, PaPa, Father to lead, me to rest from my conjectures and tell people God does just love us all (1 John 2:1-2) proof in Son as risen, making those two Won (One)
Daddy reassures me, and whenever I need to go to anyone else to tell them I see was not good to anyone, then I do that as led to do that from God not any church here on earth on the corner of walk and don't walk, of flesh man work, looking great in front of others, and getting earth rewards from. each other, no longer putting God first in their lives, and not seeing it, yet evil in there sees it and glories in it. I do not, been there done that
Thanking Father for Son in it is done for me to walk new and not of myself., thank you, hoping and trusting God to reveal this to us all and be humble again over being proud or even hiding sin in them
Confess, ultimately to God Father of in risen Son and see God did the cleansing for you in Son to you, thank you Father.