Is having faith/belief obeying?

mailmandan · 2025-03-09T07:45:28-0400

Paul reminded the Corinthians that when he came to them, he did not come to them with superiority of speech or of wisdom when declaring the testimony of God. Paul adds that he made a conscious choice not to display his knowledge about anything at all except for Jesus Christ and Him crucified. He did not seem interested in calling attention to himself, but to Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, so their faith would be based on God's power and not on superiority of speech or impressive human wisdom.

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. We could never be obedience enough to earn or merit our salvation and our obedience to Jesus which follows believing the gospel and becoming saved is certainly not the source of our salvation. The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the source of our salvation and believing the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. Those who believe the gospel and are saved hold fast to that word (the gospel) which Paul preached unless they believed in vain.

Strong's #1500: eike (pronounced i-kay')

probably from 1502 (through the idea of failure); idly, i.e. without reason (or effect):--without a cause, (in) vain(-ly).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

eikē

1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause

2) in vain

2a) without success or effort

Part of Speech: adverb

Relation: probably from G1502 (through the idea of failure)

Citing in TDNT: 2:380, 203

Strongs's #1500: eike - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

mailmandan · 2025-03-09T08:28:01-0400

Pilgrimshope said:

If no works follow a profession of faith, then one has an empty profession of faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Noah had already "found grace" in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9), before he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth, but of course, that was not the case.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Complete does not mean faith can now finally save us based on works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Noah's faith was not dead prior to building the ark (Genesis 6:8,9) and neither was Abraham's faith prior to offering up Isaac on the altar. (Genesis 15:6)

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21,24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Lynx · 2025-03-09T08:29:11-0400

Oh goody. Another "Not By Works" thread. Just what we need more of.

Why y'all gotta make everything soooooo complicated?

If you told me somebody was downtown giving hundred dollar bills away on the sidewalk, my actions would indicate whether I believed you. If I did not believe you (and if I was not very wealthy at the time) I wouldn't move. If I did believe you, I'd get downtown real fast!

Would my action be what got me a hundred dollar bill? No. That would be because some nut is giving them away.

But if I didn't move, you could make a very good case that I did not believe you, even if I claimed I believed you. If I did believe you, I am NOT rich enough to just sit there.

If I believe God but I don't do the things God said, do I really believe God? I sure ain't acting like it.

If you told me my supper last night was poisoned and I had 36 hours to live if I don't get the antidote, would you think I believed you if I did nothing about it? If I got my butt in motion and went around trying to get a doctor to find the antidote, you know I believe you. That doesn't mean my action is what saves my life - the antidote is what does that. But if I don't do anything, you can bet that means I don't believe you.

If God says to live a certain way;
If I claim to believe God knows what He is talking about;
If I claim to believe God has our best interests in mind;
If I DON'T do what God says;
Do I really believe God?

That doesn't mean my actions are what save me. But it sure does mean I don't really believe God knows what He is talking about.

Lynx · 2025-03-09T08:31:06-0400

mailmandan said:

If no works follow a profession of faith, then one has an empty profession of faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Noah had already "found grace" in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9), before he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth, but of course, that was not the case.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Complete does not mean faith can now finally save us based on works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Noah's faith was not dead prior to building the ark (Genesis 6:8,9) and neither was Abraham's faith prior to offering up Isaac on the altar. (Genesis 15:6)

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

I knew there was a reason I liked you. You said about the same thing I said, but you said it while I was eating breakfast and I didn't hit refresh before I posted, so I didn't see it until now. =^.^=

mailmandan · 2025-03-09T08:33:21-0400

Lynx said:

I like you too brother.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

GWH · 2025-03-09T08:36:14-0400

Inquisitor said:

An obvious question to ask at this point is, “What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?” (which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.)

If God loves the world (JN 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (2TM 2:4), then He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (MT 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per JN 1:1f.) they have received.

Three ways God/Christ is encountered include:

1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).

2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and

3. special revelation (1PT 1:8-12), which refers to the biblical and especially NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. HB 7:18-10:1 teaches that the OT doctrine of salvation via obeying the Mosaic Law has been superseded by the Gospel of Christ. Thus, those who have the opportunity to learn the Gospel but reject Christ as Lord are in deep doo-doo (so to speak).

Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

studier · 2025-03-09T11:11:56-0400

mailmandan said:

Nice work. Thanks for being more thorough.

Here's the TDNT reference with my highlighting:

εἰκῇ This is a dat. fem. used adverbially. By Attic rule it should thus be written with ἰῶτα subscr., though this had already fallen into disuse in the Hellen. period. There are no instances of the adj. εἰκός. The basic meaning is “at random,” “with no plan or goal,” “for no objective reason.” It thus comes to mean “without true right,” and the further senses of “in vain,” “moderately” and “simply” have also to be taken into account. In the NT εἰκῇ usually means “in vain” (R. 13:4; 1 C. 15:2; Gl. 3:4; 4:11). It means “without basis” in Col. 2:18. On Mt. 5:22 cf. the textual discussion in Zn. Justin is no real witness for the omission of εἰκῇ (“without a cause”) after πᾶς ὁ ὀργιζόμενος τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ, since he is quoting very freely. Origen, followed by Jerome, Vulgate and Augustine, probably introduced a correction on moral grounds to make all anger reprehensible. א and B are surely dependent on Origen. In the Western and Syrian there is unanimous support for εἰκῇ, and it is probably genuine. Both δωρεάν and εἰκῇ came to have a much wider range than their original meaning, esp. δωρεάν, in the usage of the Gk. Bible (→ 166). Both take on the sense of “in vain,” and, although they reach it from different standpoints, no distinction of meaning can be seen between them in this regard, at least in the NT. Büchsel

Friedrich Büchsel, “Εἰκῇ,” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, and Gerhard Friedrich (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964–), 380–381.

IMO the problem with using "in vain" is it's too ambiguous and thus leaves us open to define it via opinion. This is why I asked what this range of definition would actually mean - what is Paul actually meaning?

As I said, I don't see Paul saying these people had not believed, but had believed vainly, or without reason, or without cause, or without purpose, or without success, or without effort, or without careful thought (BDAG). Well and good, but what would Paul's meaning be with any or all of these?

unless you (plural) believed without reason (a reason or without reasoning).
unless you (plural) believed without cause
unless you (plural) believed without purpose
unless you (plural) believed without success
unless you (plural) believed without effort
unless you (plural) believed without careful thought
unless you (plural) believed with no plan or goal
unless you (plural) believed for no objective reason
unless you (plural) believed ????

After this, Paul summarizes what he had taught them about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ (which is all contained in Acts13:16-42) and certainly must have been part of his teaching in Corinth for 3.5 years.

Paul summarizes the death and burial so he can focus on the resurrection which is the main issue he's getting to. By 15:23 Paul is focusing on the resurrection of Christians (15:23 BTW is a very important focal point for us). Then by 15:33 he's commanding them not to live in sin. Then by 15:58 Paul is commanding them to become firm, immovable, always abounding in the Lord's work, knowing your labor/toil is not empty (another word typically translated as "in vain" but not the same word used in 15:2) in [the] Lord.

So, Paul is not only making commands and thus issuing rules for the Christian as part of the full scope of the Gospel and of the Salvation process (Christians being saved), but he is also providing enough information for us to go back and try to be more specific with what he means by "unless you believed _____" in 15:2.

Is his concern that they did not believe, or his concern that they had not thought through the implications of entering into the Christian life and what the resurrection meant not only re: Jesus being the Christ, but also what it means in regard to the life and goals of a Christian who has entered into God's Salvation Plan and Process?

Quoting these resources we have is part of the job.

Pilgrimshope · 2025-03-09T13:09:30-0400

mailmandan said:

“If no works follow a profession of faith, then one has an empty profession of faith.”

right so if someone says I have faith but they never do the works of faith it’s dead faith and can’t save.

So basically as James said faith if it doesn’t have works is dead and incomplete and can’t save.

We could then argue more about it but that’s all I was saying what you said there. Faith requires the work to be done . It’s very much like this

“And the LORD said unto Moses,

Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

moses could have heard what god said and not done anything not acted upon it but because of what he said involving Moses action it requires Moses to act upon what he said the word included Moses action . So until Moses lifted his hand the darkness wouldn’t have come

had God said “ don’t worry about lifting your hand Moses I’m going to cause darkness myself without any action from you “

then moses action wouldn’t have mattered but it became part of his faith because he believed in the lord who had said it . Moses didn’t think “ my hand has the power “ he understood God said this and he’s able to do it ….let me do my simple part and obey him and lift my hand so his world will be manifest”

awe have to hear what it is that God actually said like Moses there or like Noah who heard what zgod said about the flood and ark and then he built the ark by faith and was saved

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my point is really simple had Moses not done the work God told him would dave him and his family they all would have drown and it would have been because he didn’t believe Gods word aboit the flood and therefore he never acted

Faith has to hear what the lord said regarding salvation and receive it which always include actuons we’re meant to take because we believe in him who spoke it for instance one thing we learn to act upon from the gospel and note the promise

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the same word that told Moses to lift his hand up so that there would be darkness . We can either reject what he’s saying and not heed and follow it or we can believe what he said and begin acting upon it because we believe the promise it holds this part

“if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

But we can also reject that and say “ I m already forgiven I don’t need to hear and
Obey Jesus word about it I’m forgiven and m not someone who needs to learn from the lord about forgivness ect

One way stops us from believing what he said but the other way is going tomlewd us to do what he said because we heard faith

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

noah heard his word and acted on faith Moses also many people have through time but always true is without the work called for faith is dead and has no life

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Is having faith/belief obeying?

mailmandan

Senior Member

mailmandan

Senior Member

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite

mailmandan

Senior Member

GWH

Groovy

studier

Well-known member

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member