The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[studier]

I decry it to as a means of salvation. I simply recognize it as a part of sanctification.

Understood better than you may realize.

 

[studier]

Agreed. I suspect that is why there is such a thing called eternal salvation? There is the initial salvation of gotten saved, being saved and then eternal?

Scripturally: 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, (Heb. 5:9 NKJ). Interesting how this phrase is used in relation to obedience to Jesus Christ.

The eternal aspect is really throughout in the same sense as when Paul instructs that we've been raised and seated together with Jesus Christ. This is the already and not yet thread that runs through the Text.

So, we talk about positional concepts and having things now while also we talk about things that are later. And then we debate about terminology like being saved and concepts within such.

It's fun I guess...But then in discussions like these:

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 Jn. 3:15 NKJ)

 

[Believer08]

Scripturally: 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, (Heb. 5:9 NKJ). Interesting how this phrase is used in relation to obedience to Jesus Christ.

The eternal aspect is really throughout in the same sense as when Paul instructs that we've been raised and seated together with Jesus Christ. This is the already and not yet thread that runs through the Text.

So, we talk about positional concepts and having things now while also we talk about things that are later. And then we debate about terminology like being saved and concepts within such.

It's fun I guess...But then in discussions like these:

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 Jn. 3:15 NKJ)

One individual believes Hebrews 5:9 doesn’t make obedience conditional for salvation.

 

[studier]

One individual believes Hebrews 5:9 doesn’t make obedience conditional for salvation.

It's not unusual for people not to understand the parallelism of faith and obedience, but it is a problem that causes other problems for properly understanding the Bible. It's part of the reason behind some of these arguments re: faith and works. We can compare these verses with Heb5:9:

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ro 10:16.

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 2 Th 1:8.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 1 Pe 4:17.

 

[Believer08]

It's not unusual for people not to understand the parallelism of faith and obedience, but it is a problem that causes other problems for properly understanding the Bible. It's part of the reason behind some of these arguments re: faith and works. We can compare these verses with Heb5:9:

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ro 10:16.

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 2 Th 1:8.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 1 Pe 4:17.

Amen…and it’s typically the same ones who outright refuse to say what works justified Abraham and Rahab.

 

[Gideon300]

Scripture clearly teaches that it is possible for a believer to commit the unforgivable sin of blasphemy, but I won't bother reposting those right now. Instead, I want to consider the issue regarding rewards in heaven, which is rather problematic because heaven is eternal bliss. Does loss of reward make one unhappy in heaven?

I prefer to think that degrees of reward in heaven are comparable to the differences in enjoyment of music or art, for example, where someone ignorant of the subject has less appreciation for it than someone more experienced. Similarly, a person who has suffered for Christ greatly on earth will have greater joy in heaven than someone who had it relatively easy--like me. But we all will be happy and will not commit sins such as envy, because in heaven the greatest will be those who serve.

Rewards are placement in God's kingdom. Yes, there will be no sorrow in heaven. But we are encouraged to work for rewards, as with the parable of the talents. God accepts all who are born again into heaven. In reality, we are already there spiritually. (Ephesians 2:6)

My desire is to able to say, as Paul did, that I have run the race that God had for me. We are all different and it's not helpful to compare ourselves with another (one of my many weaknesses).

 

[bluejean_bible]

Maybe it helps if the term, Justification, is given its biblical definition.

 

[TrustandObey]

The prodigal son was dead in his trespasses and sins. He is never said to be alive until he returns home.

Poppycock!
He was never alive until he returned home? Is that true of the older son as well?

Can you not see to what absurd lengths you have to go to ln order to defend such nonsense?

If you really want to understand the parable, begin with the fact that Luke 15 is 1 parable with 3 parts. The parable is about the role of the Godhead in salvation.

Simple rubbish.
The Godhead?

You need help. I mean it, you need help.

If you like, I'll walk you through it.

No thanks.

I will stay clear of that ditch.

 

[TrustandObey]

Did Esau lose his salvation because he sinned?

Salvation?

It's not even mentioned in the story.

It is plain to see you are attempting to change the subject and muddy up the water.

I will not play your game.

Esau gave up his promised birthright. He regretted it later but lost it never the less.

Your reasoning is bogus. You just don't have a honest heart to admit it.

 

[Cameron143]

Poppycock!
He was never alive until he returned home? Is that true of the older son as well?

Can you not see to what absurd lengths you have to go to ln order to defend such nonsense?


Simple rubbish.
The Godhead?

You need help. I mean it, you need help.

No thanks.

I will stay clear of that ditch.

The older son was dead too. He was a picture of the Israel...in the Father's house but without a real relationship to Him.
And if you are going to understand the Bible correctly, get the whole context of a passage. The greater context of Luke 15 is the entire 3 part parable.

 

[TrustandObey]

Time to repent and come to true saving faith..

You sure about this? Sounds like works.

 

[TrustandObey]

The older son was dead too. He was a picture of the Israel...in the Father's house but without a real relationship to Him.
And if you are going to understand the Bible correctly, get the whole context of a passage. The greater context of Luke 15 is the entire 3 part parable.

There is nothing in the verbiage that states the older son was dead. The father calls the older son as "you are always with me".

Both sons were always dead??? You do not understand the parable as well as you think.

The father describes the younger son as "alive again" The younger son was alive and became dead and alive again.

You are either making this up or using esoteric knowledge.

You are a false teacher. In the ditch you will stay.

 

[Believer08]

There is nothing in the verbiage that states the older son was dead. The father calls the older son as "you are always with me".

Both sons were always dead??? You do not understand the parable as well as you think.

The father describes the younger son as "alive again" The younger son was alive and became dead and alive again.

You are either making this up or using esoteric knowledge.

You are a false teacher. In the ditch you will stay.

Better just put him on ignore and call it a day.

 

[TrustandObey]

These people had grace handed to them, but int he end, they fell to what they always trusted the law.

They did not lose salvation. they never had it. Their faith was in the law. not christ.

If "grace was handed to them" then how "could they never had it"?

 

[TrustandObey]

Better just put him on ignore and call it a day.

I have read many of your posts. Your reasoning is sound. Keep up the noble work.

 

[Believer08]

If "grace was handed to them" then how "could they never had it"?

Ughh…the ole “never had it” argument. They say that when they realize that their doctrine is false. They’d rather not admit that someone walked away..so they’d just say they were never saved…what a weak cop out.

 

[Believer08]

I have read many of your posts. Your reasoning is sound. Keep up the noble work.

I shall try. Thank you.

 

[sevoldoG]

So if salvation is entirely of God’s and we don’t have a choice in the matter…then is it also entirely of God’s that He chooses hell for whoever He wants to go there and they have no choice in that as well?

God has made all things for himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Prov. 16:4)

 

[Believer08]

God has made all things for himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Prov. 16:4)

So does God choose hell for whoever He wants to go there? Do the individuals have no choice in the matter? They are thereby eternally decreed to be damned?

 

[wwjdmichael101]

when they have right doctrine.

who has the Son, has life.
who does not have the Son, does not have life.

You know what? I believe a person can believe they are saved and not truly be saved because they believe OSAS. I have a friend who goes out often and drinks, parties and sleeps with as many woman that will let him. I have have warned him that his walk with Jesus can not be true. He told me that he eccepted Jesus many years ago and that he is saved. He let me know that he is once saved alway saved. Now this is not something he has been doing just a few times struggling with sin in his life, this has been his life style for a long while.
Now unless you are saying my friend is saved while continuing to live like this. then he is a dead man walking and needs to repent of his life style so he can be saved. He really believes he is save because of OSAS. On the other hand if you believe my friend is saved while continuing to live this life style, then you and me believe in 2 different Jesuses.

You aren't adding anything that provides clarification as far as what you believe people have misunderstood about the Bible there.

Do you have anything to say that is constructive and related to the thread topic itself?

Warnings are good, and your children would be safe with me. Some things are conditional and some things aren't. Dogs return to their vomit and pigs to the muck. It's in their nature. If you want to change their behavior, you have to change their nature. The lesson is: is your nature changed? And the answer is found in whether you have become a new creation or not. If you return to the vomit and muck of your former life, you didn't become new.

You aren't adding anything that provides clarification as far as what you believe people have misunderstood about the Bible there.

Do you have anything to say that is constructive and related to the thread topic itself?

Warnings are good, and your children would be safe with me. Some things are conditional and some things aren't. Dogs return to their vomit and pigs to the muck. It's in their nature. If you want to change their behavior, you have to change their nature. The lesson is: is your nature changed? And the answer is found in whether you have become a new creation or not. If you return to the vomit and muck of your former life, you didn't become new.