The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Gideon300]

I see his point very clearly.

If salvation cannot be lost by our actions then warnings directed at Christians have no meaning.

The forgiveness given to the servant was taken back because of his actions. Matthew 18:21-35

What do you mean by salvation?

 

[GWH]

Why is it so hard to understand the difference between being born again and the ongoing salvation of the soul? Being born again is just that. It is instant and irreversible. God will not reject the born again spirit. It is possible to lose everything in the souls realm but enter into heaven. Such a person will have no placement in God's kingdom. This life is preparation for the next. Many will suffer great loss because they've held onto self and not allowed God to change them.

To be born again is instant and costs nothing. To be a spiritual person takes a lifetime and costs everything. But that person gains in God's kingdom far greater rewards than the person who refuses to allow God to change them.

Scripture clearly teaches that it is possible for a believer to commit the unforgivable sin of blasphemy, but I won't bother reposting those right now. Instead, I want to consider the issue regarding rewards in heaven, which is rather problematic because heaven is eternal bliss. Does loss of reward make one unhappy in heaven?

I prefer to think that degrees of reward in heaven are comparable to the differences in enjoyment of music or art, for example, where someone ignorant of the subject has less appreciation for it than someone more experienced. Similarly, a person who has suffered for Christ greatly on earth will have greater joy in heaven than someone who had it relatively easy--like me. But we all will be happy and will not commit sins such as envy, because in heaven the greatest will be those who serve.

 

[sevoldoG]

I know this: If God enlightened me with the Holy Ghost, and revealed the knowledge of His divine truth concerning eternal life and the salvation required to obtain it to me, and then put such a sacred and holy situation into my bloody, sin filled, finite hands, then I’m worshipping the wrong God. What a hellish torment my life would be. It would probably cause me to turn from God.
I do know that I believe that I have a relationship with God, and the best food for my spirit is when I obey God out of a thankful heart for loving this sinful, filthy creature, and blessing me with eternal life. What point is it to obey God out of necessity or fear? You wouldn’t have a father, but a master,, and chances are you’re not going to be very loving in your obedience.
It’s not Biblical, just my personal belief on the subject. Thanks for your time peeps.
God bless.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It is the Bible that says we must do works not posters.

James 2:24
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

We may debate what is needed to be saved but not the need to obey.

Then feel free,

what works of merit do we need?

And remember, Paul said the apposite. so are paul and james in disagreement? (romans 4, Eph 1 and 2, Titus 3 among others) Should i throw the whole book out because those two can not get their doctrines right?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9‬ ‭

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-17, 19-21‬ ‭

yes, this is how we are sanctified. or have christian growth. or grow in christ.

But that is not what we are talking about I believe. we are discussing how one is saved from the penalty of sin

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Pretty clear that Paul did not believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved.

lol really. have you really studied paul?

Gal. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

These people had grace handed to them, but int he end, they fell to what they always trusted the law.

They did not lose salvation. they never had it. Their faith was in the law. not christ.

whats your faith in?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jesus said, of those whom the father gives him, he shall lose none.

How does this comport with verse 4 of Paul's statement?

they like to take verses out of context. and claim this verse (remember there was no verse breaks in the original text) proves them right.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No one can take away the gift that I have received.... NO ONE!

Not even you! You are someone

Keep your faith in God and his promise amen

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You know nothing of idioms in the Greek. Fallen from grace does not mean a loss of salvation. Nobody is saved through the Law. Paul taught being sealed by Holy Spirit, and if you think there can still be loss of salvation after having been sealed, then you must be following some other god who has a very weak and wimpy spirit. I hope that's not the case.

MM

Amen

Sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

Not until you do something to break the seal

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jesus gave us the Great Commission and we read in the Gospels if we are truly followers and love Him we will obey Him.

I wonder how many profess accepting His Gift but refuse to make Disciples?

If no one is obeying Jesus, how can they claim they truly love Him

They probably never trusted him to begin with. They are hearers not doers.

We are saved by grace through faith. No faith, no salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sure…no one can take it from you…but you yourself can decide you do not want it anymore.

No

You are a someone.

If we are faithless. he is faithful. he can not deny himself.

plus. why would you want to? Go back to what made you dead? Go back to untrusty people including your untruthful self. and deny a God who never failed you.

People who claim we can lose faith and walk away and reject God after we have been saved I can only assume have never met him, or they would never even think this could be true

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

One does not need to dive into the Greek to understand clear cut passages. Sometimes it helps and can be quite beneficial, but on clear cut passages like Gal. 5:3-4, it’s pretty plain. It refutes the false doctrine of OSAS (the impossibility of apostasy), but as always, people want to say it doesn’t mean what it says and it doesn’t mean what it means. As stated in John 8:32, we shall know the truth, can prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Peter 3:15). Jesus expected people to understand Him (Mk. 7:14). Regular people can accomplish this (2 Timothy 3:16,17; Acts 17:11; Ephesians 5:17). The Bible was written for fishermen, farmers, tent makers, and the poor to be able to understand.

A lot of times, people who go to the original language to prove something ends up proving something that cannot be proven in the scriptures. Or, they use a word or meaning of one that gives a different “spin” on what the original meaning has. In other words, their goal was to establish what cannot be found in the English texts. Any practice that can only be verified by studying the original Greek should be immediately suspect.

Without learning Greek or Hebrew, the average individual can learn the meaning of Bible words in three different ways: (1) Context, (2) Translations, and (3) Additional passages.

Romans 5:20-21 clearly states that God's grace reigns through righteousness. Righteousness is in the saving message of Christ— the gospel, clearly stated in Romans 1:16-17. As a result, falling from grace (Gal. 5:3-4) entails losing access to the gospel's sin-cleansing blessings! In other words, all individuals who attempted to revert to the weak and beggarly features of apostate Judaism (Galatians 4:9), although having been baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:26-29), had ceased to walk in the light and began to walk in darkness (1 John 1:5-10). They needed to repent and pray (Acts 8:22). The erring brethren of the church in Galatia or elsewhere could return at any time, but they had to do so in the manner prescribed by God in the gospel.

Yeah your right, we can reject John3 (never perish live forever) John 4 (Eternal life or live forever) John 5 Never come to judgment but pass from death to life) John 6 etc etc.

But hey, You want to pump your chest like a pharisee. feel free. We can;t stop you. But you also can not take away our faith like your trying to do

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And God will comply?

Bingo.

God gave me eternal life. Said he would never leave nor forsake me, And he has given me the spirit as a seal or pledge until the day he raises me from the dead.

But because I get some wim and want to hurt myself. he will comply and take all these things back.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Christ did enough. I don’t dispute that. I believe His sacrifice and resurrection was completely sufficient for man’s sins. It’s not about whether Christ will ever let go of the ones who follow Him (Jn. 10:27-28), but will any of those who follow Him let go of Him? Do we have any scriptures of someone following Jesus (before or after His crucifixion and resurrection)? Sadly, we do. The warnings in Galatians…the book of Hebrews…2 Peter…John 15…and many more…either give warnings about what would happen or tell what what has happened to those who have made that choice. I do not deny the power of God (1 Peter 1:5), and I have stated elsewhere that I believe in the eternal security of the believer (1 Jn. 5:13), but just because one is saved does not mean they will always remain or abide in the vine—which is Jesus (Jn. 15:5-6)

Did Jesus die for our sins?
Did Jesus redeem us from our sins when we trusted in him?
Did he give us eternal life?
Did he seal us with his spirit?
Did he give us every spiritual blessing under heaven?
Did he give us the assurance he would never leave us nor FORSAKE us?
Did he tell us he removed our sins as far as the east is from the west? And that he would remember then no more?

Then please tell me why God would lie? and take all of these things back under ANY circumstance?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Amen he constantly warned of judgement and exhorted the church to repentance and remission of sins in his name.

But people take sentences from his letters and make up doctrines to pull people away from the truth in his doctrine

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-18‬

Are you sure your not the one making up doctrines and pulling people away from the truth>

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

OH MY GOODNESS! What in the world is wrong with the way people interpret the Bible. The Bible give plenty of warnings. If i wrote a letter warning my kids to stay away from danger. I would not want you people interpreting my letter for them.

if your kids disobeyed you and went towards danger. would you kick them out of your family. or would you love them?

 

[DavidLamb]

He most certainly will.

Are you not aware of how in the days of old that Esau gave away his birthright.

True, Esau did, but long before that happened, God had already said, before Jacob and Esau were born, that Esau would serve Jacob:

“Now Isaac pleaded with the LORD for his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD granted his plea, and Rebekah his wife conceived. But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If all is well, why am I like this?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."” (Ge 25:21-23 NKJV)

So it is certainly not a case of God complying with Esau's action in selling the birthright.

 

[Musicmaster]

Jesus gave us the Great Commission and we read in the Gospels if we are truly followers and love Him we will obey Him.

I wonder how many profess accepting His Gift but refuse to make Disciples?

If no one is obeying Jesus, how can they claim they truly love Him

Jesus commanded that Great Commision, as it is called, to Israel, not the body of Christ. His disciples were empowered and sent out ONLY to Israel when the Lord sent them out two by two, etc., taking no extra garment nor purse. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. James later demonstrated his obedience to that commission as stated in James 1:1...to thr twelve tribes scattered abroad.

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The prodigal son was labeled by the father as a dead son and a lost son. You are simply trying to sugar coat their relationship with such nonsense as "regards to fellowship".

Dead is dead and lost is lost. If the prodigal son had not returned to his senses and walked back to the father, he would have stayed a dead and lost son.

Ecclesiastes 9:4
Anyone who is among the living has hope —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

There is no reward for a dead son, regardless of who the father is.

He was still the SON.
Your right there is no REWARD.

Salvation is a GIFT. there is a HUGE difference between a gift (freely given) and a reward (wage or earned reward)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The twisting the scriptures to their own destruction is strong with some…

Oh I agree. Just disagree with the people you think are twisting