The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[studier]

No one can take away the gift that I have received.... NO ONE!

That's indeed part of the Scriptural argument.

 

[Believer08]

Always seems to be the great question.

What I have learned is sometimes saying nothing at all is being the bigger person. And if you insist on saying something, sometimes simply saying “ok” is enough. Especially when the opposing side is argumentative, unreasonable, refuses to understand or find agreement.

 

[HeIsHere]

So, yes you are changing the language. The moment you change "salvation" to "sanctification" you've changed the language.

It is not changing the language, it is instead considering the semantic range of the word and how it is being used in the text.
The scripture is using the words they were commonly used in every day life at the time.
They do not have a separate special meaning within scripture.

Do yo see any distinction between the temporal salvation (an ongoing event) and the eternal salvation (a one time event) in scripture?

 

[studier]

Jesus gave us the Great Commission and we read in the Gospels if we are truly followers and love Him we will obey Him.

I wonder how many profess accepting His Gift but refuse to make Disciples?

If no one is obeying Jesus, how can they claim they truly love Him

IMO this is good, and I'd even tighten it up: If we are truly loving Him, then we are obeying Him and we are believing in Him.

I'm noticing some are inserting "truly". It's probably a good adverb to be inserting and discussing.

 

[Believer08]

IMO this is good, and I'd even tighten it up: If we are truly loving Him, then we are obeying Him and we are believing in Him.

I'm noticing some are inserting "truly". It's probably a good adverb to be inserting and discussing.

Yes..they also like to use it along with the word, saved…”truly saved”…typical OSAS language

 

[studier]

You aren't adding anything that provides clarification as far as what you believe people have misunderstood about the Bible there.

Do you have anything to say that is constructive and related to the thread topic itself?

Why do you think a statement about warnings having validity is unconstructive?

 

[studier]

And stop conflating works with obedience.

Just repeating!!!

 

[studier]

we are discussing how one is saved from the penalty of sin

Not the power and ultimately the presence?

 

[Cameron143]

Growing your faith is getting saved in one sense of how "save" is discussed in Scripture. Again, we were saved - we're being saved - we will be saved.

So, yes you are changing the language. The moment you change "salvation" to "sanctification" you've changed the language. If we do not change the language clearly stated in Phil2:12, then we do work with God to accomplish salvation. Even if we "work out" our salvation, is this really any different?

Yes, the 2Pet verses are speaking of the same thing and they are also describing what we do in Christ in Spirit with God working in us. As are other Scriptures describing the same thing. And here in Phil2 Paul very clearly describes this process as accomplishing our SALVATION [which we've been given according to Paul elsewhere] together with God providing the capacity/energizing (energeō is the Greek verb).

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] κατεργάζομαι (katergazomai)

1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do τὶ someth.


From Merriam-Webster:

work out
2 of 2verb
worked out; working out; works out
transitive verb

1a: to bring about by labor and exertion
work out your own salvation—Philippians 2:12 (King James Version)

b: to solve (something, such as a problem) by a process of reasoning or calculation

c: to devise, arrange, or achieve by resolving difficulties
after many years of wrangling, worked out a definite agreement—A. A. Butkus

d: develop
the final situation is not worked out with psychological profundity—Leslie Rees

2: to discharge (a debt) by labor

3: to exhaust (something, such as a mine) 1by working


FWIW, MW is the first dictionary I landed on.

One is saved or one is not. They have become a new creation or they have not. They are born from above or not. But just as a natural birth requires action on behalf of the child by the parent initially and later by the child to enjoy and grow in that life, so too does the spiritual child. The child doesn't become more saved, but the quality and enjoyment of his salvation has been enhanced.
For works to contribute to the onset or initial salvation would render Ephesians 2:8-9 false. Likewise, having no works attending new life would suggest no life exists. And if you are suggesting that works are necessary to maintain salvation, this is incorrect. While they will certainly attend one who is saved, they are not the source of life with him. Only Christ supplies this life. And it is His faithfulness to the Father and to us who are His that secures for us eternal life.

 

[studier]

lol really. have you really studied paul?


These people had grace handed to them, but int he end, they fell to what they always trusted the law.

They did not lose salvation. they never had it. Their faith was in the law. not christ.

whats your faith in?

NKJ Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? (Gal. 3:1-3 NKJ)

 

[sevoldoG]

If our salvation is not entirely Gods will then Gods plan of salvation for the world could have failed.
I guess God would have to hang his head and kick rocks if Judas decided he was not going to betray Christ. Christ said that it would have been better if Judas would have never been born than betray the Son of Man. Did Judas have a choice? No, he was the chosen one to fulfill the will of God.
That being said, then God would be a respecter of persons if any person through man’s entire existence had the ability to choose a choice that would go against, or alter the will of God. It would be unfair to Judas. And God is not a respecter of persons.

Everyone’s name that is written in the book of life is going to Gods party. That book is sealed until gods plans for redemption is complete. There will be no fresh ink or erase marks. Why? Because it’s the divine will of God.

Before Adam. Before Christ, before creation, before gods plan of salvation for the world, first and foremost is the Glory of God. Why does he wash away sins? For HIS namesake. God is not going to entrust his glory in the hands of a finite, sinful, self centered being. What he divinely declares will be done, and he has declared me sinless in Christ, and has given me eternal life, and what does that manifest? GLORY, GLORY, GLORY to the most awesome dad ever!!! I don’t think there’s much glory being an indian giver.

GOD HAS MADE ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF, YEA, EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL (Prov 16:4)

I can’t figure out any other rational way to look at it.

 

[studier]

They probably never trusted him to begin with.

This is certainly one of the theories normally put forth.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Or what?

or what?

What happens when we do not trust God in areas of our life?

I know what happens in my life.

I also know what does not happen. He never leaves nor forsakes me. But he corrects (chastens) me

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Regardless, God did comply and allow Esau to give away his birthright.

In your world God would have refused to comply because once a birthright or promise is given it cannot be taken away even by the promise holder.

You are just fighting the obvious.

Did Esau lose his salvation because he sinned?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Warnings are good, and your children would be safe with me. Some things are conditional and some things aren't. Dogs return to their vomit and pigs to the muck. It's in their nature. If you want to change their behavior, you have to change their nature. The lesson is: is your nature changed? And the answer is found in whether you have become a new creation or not. If you return to the vomit and muck of your former life, you didn't become new.

Amen.

A dog returns to what he is.

A nonbeliever returns to what he is..

 

[Believer08]

Man plays some role in his salvation. His participation is not purely passive.

1. If man plays no role in his salvation, then we are faced with only two possibilities:

a. Either all men are saved, because God would have no man perish. (2 Peter 3:9)

b. Or some are predestined for salvation and others are not, and there is nothing either group can do about it. That option would make God a respecter of persons, which he is not. (Acts 10:34)


2. So where does that leave us? It must be true that man plays some role in his salvation.

a. What then must he do? We are not the first to ever ask that question. Those who heard the very first gospel sermon in Acts 2 asked that very question, and they were told to repent and be baptized.

If we do not have somewhat of a hand in our salvation, then who does? God alone? If it is God alone, then is anyone going to be cast into hell? If they are, then who chose hell for them?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Just repeating and highlighting a bit.

Good one.

If we are tryign to be saved by law. we will fail. Christ will profit us nothing.

Time to repent and come to true saving faith..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So, explain them. "You know nothing..." is basically an empty argument. What do those "idioms' mean (assuming they are idioms)?

yeah sounds like alot of your arguments.

PS. I am still waiting. what works do I have to do? Why are you so afraid to answer?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What I have learned is sometimes saying nothing at all is being the bigger person. And if you insist on saying something, sometimes simply saying “ok” is enough. Especially when the opposing side is argumentative, unreasonable, refuses to understand or find agreement.

Like your side?

Why do people argue as if they are the ones who is right no matter what. and if someone disagrees with them, well it is their fault. their issue.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

IMO this is good, and I'd even tighten it up: If we are truly loving Him, then we are obeying Him and we are believing in Him.

I'm noticing some are inserting "truly". It's probably a good adverb to be inserting and discussing.

so what happens if we are not obeying in all things. Loving him with Agape love, And lacking perfect faith?