Will There Be A Rapture?

DavyP · Sep 15, 2024

That's not the proper meaning. When Jesus returns, there won't be anyone left in flesh bodies, because all peoples will be changed to their spirit body on that day, including the wicked. Christ's future "thousand years" reign will not be one of flesh.

And the "taken" idea Jesus taught in Luke 17 is about the deceived taken in deception during the coming "great tribulation"; the whole idea of the dead "carcase" being wheresoever the eagles (fowls) are gathered is an analogy to those who worship the coming Antichrist instead of waiting on Jesus' coming afterwards.

DavyP · Sep 15, 2024

wolfwint said:

You have your answer, now I recommend you go study your Bible about it.

DavyP · Sep 15, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

If you believe that "caught up" timing happens PRIOR to the "great tribulation", which is what the pre-trib rapture doctrine teaches, then you are being deceived. That because even in 1 Thessalonians 4 by Apostle Paul, he showed Christ's coming and the gathering of His Church will be when the future RESURRECTION happens. I find that many on the man-made pre-trib rapture doctrine don't really understand the 1 Thess.4 Scripture about Jesus' coming...

1 Thess 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Simply, if we believe Lord Jesus rose from the dead, then those who have already died in Christ, the asleep saints, Jesus will bring with Him when He comes.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The actual Greek word for "prevent" means 'to precede or go beforehand'. Those of us still alive when Jesus comes shall not 'precede' the asleep saints who have already died.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When Jesus comes, the asleep saints that died will be resurrected first. This is key, because when did Jesus show the future resurrection will be? Jesus showed in John 6:40 that He will raise up the dead saints on the LAST DAY, meaning the last day of this present world.

And that puts the day of His coming to gather His saints on the LAST DAY of this world, AFTER the "great tribulation". That is why Jesus told us in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming to gather His saints is after the tribulation.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

At that same time of the future RESURRECTION, when Jesus brings the dead saints with Him on His way to earth, He will gather the alive saints from the earth, their being "caught up" to Him (and to His resurrected saints).

Then Zechariah 14 shows on that 'day' (the "day of the Lord"), that His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem, bringing all His faithful Church with Him there.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 15, 2024

DavyP said:

In the Rev19 setting, it states, "And the remnant were SLAIN..."

... which (as I showed in a previous thread) CORRESPONDS with:

--[Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / (20:5b) CORRESPONDS WITH] the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[,23], where THAT text states, "And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall PUNISH[1] the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. AND they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered IN THE PIT [in OT often used to refer to DEATH / the grave], and shall be shut up in the prison..."

(This is at the Armageddon time-slot... and where Rev19:21 says "And the remnant were SLAIN"--i.e. PUT TO DEATH;
This corresponds also with the passages [speaking of the SAME time-slot] "shall be cast [out] into outer darkness" https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...ast+into+outer+darkness&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
... and all "there shall be weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth" passages https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...g+and+gnashing+of+teeth&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 + https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...g+and+gnashing+of+teeth&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 ... plus other related passages;

They DO NOT "ENTER" the MK age, they are sent "away into everlasting punishment" [starting with death and hell/hades--the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22(,23)... and a time period INTERVENES before the SECOND of these TWO "PUNISH" words, when at the GWTj time-slot "death and hell/hades" will DELIVER UP THE "dead" that were in them Rev20:11,13 [the "dead [/unsaved]" of ALL TIMES]... and the final judgment will be thus carried out, i.e. the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of that Isa24 text--They will be cast into the lake of fire])

ONLY the "believers / saints / righteous," still-living (at the time of Christ's Second Coming TO THE EARTH) in their mortal bodies (like Noah) will be the ones granted permission to ENTER "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age" (the ones who will have DIED / been MARTYRED / BEHEADED *during* the Trib yrs will be "resurrected [defined as 'to stand again' (on the earth)]" [Rev20:4b] to enjoy the MK age, but will NOT have the capacity to "reproduce / bear children" as those "still-living" (alone) WILL have the capacity to do during the MK age). And that's just referring to folks existing during the 7-yr Trib (who come to faith in Christ IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs... FOLLOWING "our Rapture").

This is also WHY we read in Rev20:7-8 (context: END of MK age) "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" and the words stating that Satan's aim will be to "go out TO DECEIVE the nations..." at that time-slot. Bear in mind that the only ones PERMITTED ENTRANCE into the MK age at the START, are "saved persons [/believers]".

You are suggesting that ALL persons will have already been changed into their "spirit bodies" even the unsaved (at the time-slot of its START)... but you do not seem to have any explanation of just WHO IT IS that is available at the END of the MK age for Satan (to have as his aim) "TO DECEIVE"(whereas, my viewpoint DOES have explanation for this).

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 15, 2024

DavyP said:

The "GREAT tribulation" is ONLY the LATTER HALF of the 7-year period; so already you have misrepresented the "pre-trib Rapture" doctrine, in just your first sentence.

What you are describing here ^ is NOT "pre-trib Rapture" doctrine, but the "MID-trib Rapture" stance which believes our Rapture will take place prior to the "GREAT tribulation [/SECOND HALF]"... which is not my viewpoint (I'm "pre-trib"... NOT "MID-trib" Rapture.)

So, no... that's NOT "what the pre-trib rapture doctrine teaches," as you are suggesting. Please study up on this subject, to better understand the viewpoint you are aiming to oppose, because thus far you've misrepresented it in a number of your posts and threads.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 15, 2024

DavyP said:

Again, you are not reading this text correctly (as I've explained in several posts, to you, already).

BOTH the [then] now-resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)] members of the Church which is His body (the ones who've DIED prior to the time being spoken of),
AND the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" members of the Church which is His body
[as the TEXT ITSELF TELLS US] shall be "caught-up / snatched together" (the still-living/remaining ones will be "caught-up [/snatched] TOGETHER WITH them"--that is, "caught-up [/snatched]" AT THE SAME TIME that THEY ALSO will be "CAUGHT-UP / SNATCHED" from the earth--WHERE [on earth] they will have just been "bodily-resurrected ['TO STAND AGAIN' (on the earth)]")...

The entire corporate "body of Christ" will be "SNATCHED UP" in ONE SINGULAR "SNATCH-action" (TOGETHER)... "TO the meeting OF THE LORD in the air" (where HE will be--and we ALL [the "ONE BODY"] will be "caught-up / snatched" TOGETHER, TO THERE).

[quoting from BibleHub: "In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([defined as] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb." --inserted brackets mine]

[this is directly DISTINCT from the description found in Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13, as I've also said in past posts addressing this]

You are also misunderstanding the phrase "shall God bring with [G4862] Him/Jesus" in this text. But one thing at a time...

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 15, 2024

DavyP said:

--the text (re: the part I put in BLUE ^ ) speaks specifically of "the dead IN CHRIST" (note: "IN CHRIST" [/ "IN HIM"] is a NT designation);

--the text in 1Cor15:22b-23a (re: resurrection) says specifically,
"... even so *in Christ* shall [FUTURE TENSE] all be made alive. 23 But [conjunction] every man [/each] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK: ..." --Now, I see zero explanation, on your part, as to WHAT this phrase MEANS (in this context), by its saying, "BUT *each* IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" --WHAT DOES IT MEAN "each IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" (speaking of the subject of "bodily-resurrection"), when many (like you) are endeavoring to make the point that there remains ONLY ONE (at ONE singular point in time), in contrast to what this text is saying (that there is an "ORDER / RANK" to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE, at ONE singular point in time).

--Rev20:4b (which is a text many attempt to use, on this point) is saying in verse 5b (pointing back to v.4b) "THIS [what v.4b just spoke of SPECIFICALLY] is the resurrection the first [adj]"--the "THIS" refers ONLY to those saints who were martyred/beheaded/killed DURING THE LAST HALF of the 7 year period.

And it is not saying, "this is the FIRST time that resurrection will happen" ("first [adj]" can legitimately mean "first in quality / type"... like when this same adjective is used in reference to Paul calling himself the "chief [adj--same Grk word - G4413]... of sinners"--1Tim1:15--but this doesn't mean in relation TO TIME, but in quality / type--SAME for its use in Rev20:5b which then CORRESPONDS WITH the wording we see in 1Cor15:22b-23a, I just pointed out!--without having to DISREGARD THIS section of Scripture; ... AND why we see the "2W" bodily-resurrected at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot DISTINCT from when all other saints will be.)

IOW, there is MORE to the story than what you are choosing to focus in on, in Scripture. Our [my] viewpoint ("pre-trib Rapture") has explanation for all of these, whereas I see no explanation, on your part, regarding these... but just glossing over them.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 15, 2024

^ When Paul said, in 1Cor15:51[,-54] (addressing "the Church which is His body"), "Behold, I SHEW *you* A MYSTERY...," he wasn't getting ready to tell [the same thing] that which ALL *OT* saints already WELL-KNEW (like Job knew in Job 19:25-27... like Daniel knew in Daniel 12:13... like Martha knew in John 11:24), no.

Paul was tasked with DISCLOSING what had NOT YET been previously disclosed.

Where he says, "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal," in this 1Cor15 passage, he is speaking SPECIFICALLY regarding "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (not all saints of all OTHER time periods), to / of whom THIS PASSAGE pertains IN PARTICULAR; Note what it says in Eph1:20-23 "WHEN [as to its existence]".

"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (that's us!) is not the same thing in Scripture as "the church in the wilderness" (during OT times), Acts 7:38-44, simply because both phrases use the word "church / ekklesia". No.

"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" has the permanent INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit (but see what is stated in John 7:39, "(But this spake he [Jesus] of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS NOT YET given ; BECAUSE that Jesus HAD NOT YET been glorified.)" [see again Eph1:20-23 "WHEN [as to its existence]"]

Part of this has to do with "chronology"--a matter concerning, and of considering, WHAT happens WHEN in relation (time-wise) to what OTHER THINGS.

DavyP · Sep 16, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

The following is about the last day of this world when Jesus returns to do battle, and these kings are shut in the pit along with Satan, and then "visited" later, i.e., after the 1,000 years for final Judgment...

Isa 24:20-23
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
KJV

Thus being cast to the "outer darkness", or into Satan's pit prison at Christ's future return does not mean automatic destruction; it's not the "second death" or casting into the "lake of fire" which is after the "thousand years" of Rev.20.

That's not what Apostle Paul taught. Here is what Paul taught...

1 Cor 15:49-54
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The type body of the future is the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, the "image of the heavenly". All peoples left will have that type of body...

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul gave four different Greek words in the above 53rd verse about two types of changes on that day. Our "corruptible" flesh body must put on "incorruption", meaning to put on our "spiritual body", and in order to reign with Jesus as His elect "this mortal" (soul) part must put on "immortality." That's TWO types of changes, not one, for us. But for the unsaved, they will only put on the "spiritual body", the first change only, on the day Jesus comes. (See Isaiah 25 further below)

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

Paul quoted that when that happens, "Death is swallowed up in victory". Where did Paul pull that quote from? From Isaiah 25, which means we are supposed to go back to the Old Testament and read that... for there is more detail about it...

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Those are metaphors for that 'change' Apostle Paul mentioned, corruptible flesh being changed to the body of incorruption, a "spiritual body". That's about the "vail" of this present flesh body we have that is only for this present world time. And it is sad that so many are so in love with their flesh that they think they cannot live without it. Our flesh body is only a shell, it is not the real us. Our spirit with soul is the real person, and our spirit inside our flesh has that "image of the heavenly" as Paul showed in 2 Corinthians 5.

Isa 25: 8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV

There is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Corinthians 15:54. I find not that many brethren have read that Isaiah 25 Scripture.

DavyP · Sep 16, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

No, I have not... misrepresented man's pre-trib rapture doctrine, so there's no reason for you to make up that fib, except in your trying to mock what I have already shown from Bible Scripture about the events of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church after the tribulation.

Don't you recall what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that He comes to gather His saints AFTER... the tribulation? Why would you then lie about that, saying I misrepresent man's pre-trib rapture theory, which teaches the LIE that Jesus comes for His Church BEFORE... the "great tribulation"?

!Since you are busy NOT keeping God's Word of what Jesus showed with His coming to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation per those Gospel Scriptures I have shown several times on this Thread, and you instead want to try and spread lies against Jesus' Own Words, it means you have earned my IGNORE LIST!

LenMcM · Sep 16, 2024

TMS said:

Yes there will be a rapture.

The word clearly states so...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Jesus is coming again

And it is not a secret rapture but .....

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I agree there will be a Rapture, but all the verses you have used speak of the Second Coming when Jesus feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. The event we call the rapture happens 7 years before that.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 16, 2024

DavyP said:

Philippians 3:20-21 states,

20For our [l]citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body [/the body of His glory], by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

[remember what Jn7:39 said? (re: But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost/Spirit was not yet given; "...because that Jesus was not yet glorified"... but notice when it was that He said to these disciples in John 20:19-22 [on the very day of His Resurrection, late that same evening, ON FIRSTFRUIT], "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost/Spirit"--which was AFTER He did the John 20:17 thing He told MM about, THAT VERY DAY, earlier! Yet He had just said that evening, in Lk24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (OUR bodies will be LIKE HIS!)]

[and]

1 John 3:2 - "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

... referring to "the DEAD *in Christ*" (those who "SLEEP through Jesus"--that is, they've DIED prior to the time being referenced in this passage--our Rapture time-slot)

... referring to the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" members of the SAME Church which is His body as above (those members *in Christ* who will NOT have died prior to the time being referenced in this passage--our Rapture time-slot)

Again, "THIS corruptible" speaks specifically of "the DEAD *in Christ*"

and "THIS mortal" speaks specifically of the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" (who are also *in Christ*)...

... your idea of this referring to "flesh body" and then the other to "soul" is incorrect, biblically speaking. (2Cor5:1-8 corroborates with what I'm pointing out, here.)

Consider this.

cv5 · Sep 16, 2024

DavyP said:

My rapture apple cart is about the size of Mount Everest.
Good luck upsetting that.

wolfwint · Sep 16, 2024

DavyP said:

My question was: Do you think a fake Christ will meet the believers in the air?
I want to hear your personal meaning!
A help: There are three possible answers: No, Yes, I dont know.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 16, 2024

DavyP said:

I've already pointed out... that these two passages ^ are speaking of WHAT HAD ALREADY BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT in Isaiah 27:9,12-13.
It is NOT covering the Subject of "OUR [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY's] episynagoges UNTO HIM"... TO THE MEETING OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*

(I've shown the CONTRAST between Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (one Subject) TO THAT OF "our Rapture" passages (a DIFFERENT Subject), and they are IN EVERY WAY described DISTINCTLY [NOT the SAME]--A different group, a different PLACE / destination-location, a different MANNER of being "gathered" ["gathered ONE BY ONE" *versus* "ONE *SNATCH*-ACTION"], a different purpose, different time-slots, etc etc... on and on... yet you would have us believe that Jesus, in His OLIVET DISCOURSE, was covering something that hadn't been revealed until LATER...; NO! He was speaking to THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED [not to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]--just like how Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [one Subject] corresponds with both Romans 11:27 [please see that text] AND Daniel 9:24 [parts; please see that text], whose Subject is "thy [Daniel's] people, ISRAEL... their *future* when they have come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN THE TRIB YRS [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] ). Not every passage is ALL ABOUT *US*...

[EVERYTHING from Matt24:4 onward is what takes place FOLLOWING *our Rapture*]

cv5 · Sep 16, 2024

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

Correction:
At first a lot like JUDAS the deceiver. Then a lot like Goliath, a lot like Absalom, lot like the King of Tyre, lot like the King of Jerusalem Adoni-Zedek.

All of these are TYPES of the antichrist. He will be the greater Gol of Gath aka Goliath, one of the most striking types of the antichrist in all of the Bible. A supposedly unbeatable warrior speaking blasphemies against the True God.

Rev 13:4
they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”
Rev 13:5
There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · Sep 16, 2024

cv5 said:

Well you did mention Judas. Everyone thought he was a genuine believer doing the good works that Jesus instructed. And then he betrayed the Lord. The antichrist will pretend for a while too, but those who belong to God won't be fooled. The antichrist will fool shallow Christians but not the true Church.

🍝

DavyP · Sep 16, 2024

wolfwint said:

How about Nope. And I pretty much declared no in my previous post if you would simply read it, because I said those Scriptures cannot be compared to the coming false-Messiah.

Like the Matthew 24:23-27 Scripture shows, Jesus' coming will be like lightning across the sky, all seeing it, while the coming of the false-Messiah will only be know with someone telling us that he is come.

Thus there is no... Scripture that suggests the coming false-Messiah will come in the clouds like Jesus is to do. My previous post pretty much showed that.

And another note, John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain who first taught the pre-trib rapture theory in a Christian Church, originally used the idea that Jesus comes to rapture the Church 'in secret'... prior to the tribulation. That idea not too long after was dropped, yet that is still proposed by the pre-trib rapture authors today, as suddenly a bunch of folks are shown disappearing, and no one knows where they went, in secret. Anyone who read the Scriptures about Jesus future coming should immediately realize something is wrong with those pre-trib rapture ideas.

DavyP · Sep 16, 2024

LenMcM said:

Where exactly does God's Word say that?

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 16, 2024

DavyP said:

The origin of the phrase / notion of "SECRET rapture" [was not from Darby] started with Edward Irving (an "Historicist," not a PRE-tribber), and one of his followers being Margaret MacDonald (the gal who had supposed "visions"... but her "visions" described a "POST-trib Rapture," just as the one she followed, Edward Irving, taught.)

IOW, Edward Irving believed in a "POST-trib Rapture" and was the one who originated the term "SECRET rapture" (but... who cares what he thought, I say... lol).

But yeah, Paul himself DISTINGUISHED between "the coming / parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ [and OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM]" in verse 1 (which involves ONLY *us* and NO ONE ELSE!), from that of "the MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia of Him" in v.8b (when He will SQUASH "the man of sin" / the Antichrist, and set up His earthly Millennial Kingdom).

Will There Be A Rapture?

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