Will There Be A Rapture?

DavyP · Aug 30, 2024

Firstly, where does that word 'rapture' come from, because it's not in the Greek manuscripts of The New Testament?

It comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word 'harpazo', which means 'to seize' or 'take away'. In the KJV Bible Greek harpazo is translated as "caught up", etc. (1 Thess.4:17; Matt.13:19; John 6:15; John 10:12; John 10:28; Acts 8:39; 2 Cor.12:2 & 12:4).

The thing that I find many brethren are confused about, is that Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed that the saints still alive when Jesus descends from Heaven are "caught up" immediately after the dead saints are RESURRECTED first. Paul showed the asleep saints will be raised first (1 Thess,4:16). Per John 6:40, Jesus showed the future resurrection is to happen on the LAST DAY of this world.

That means brethren, that Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day... of this world, which is when the future resurrection of the asleep saints also happens. In other Scripture, like 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul showed that day of Christ's future coming "as a thief" will be on the "day of the Lord". Jesus Himself showed us that in Revelation 16:15 within the 6th Vial timing when He declared that He comes "as a thief".

So why... would a faithful servant of Jesus Christ want to listen to men's doctrines that steer one away from the written Scripture about Lord Jesus coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church, that being Lord Jesus' Own declaration of the time of His future return, as written? Why would anyone listen to men instead of our Lord Jesus Christ?

The below Scripture by Lord Jesus aligns perfectly with the gathering of the Church that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Two groups of saints are gathering when Jesus descends from Heaven according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4. The 'asleep' saints that have died Paul said that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). That's the above group that is gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." And Paul said those will be resurrected first.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

But the above example is different than the Matt.24 version. Here Jesus is pointing to the saints still alive... on earth being gathered, "...from the uttermost part of the earth...". These are "caught up" per 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This is what many call a 'rapture'.

I find that many brethren on men's pre-tribulational rapture theory don't actually understand what Apostle Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thess.4. Something is terribly wrong in Denmark because of their belief on man's pre-trib rapture idea. Lord Jesus simply did not teach that idea.

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 30, 2024

DavyP said:

A couple of things to consider:

--the text here states, "IN the last day";

--but the issue is, that this (which Jesus was covering, in several contexts in the gospels) was the same thing that Hosea 5:14-6:3's text ("after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day") was speaking regarding... and those in Hosea were not "singular 24-hour day" kind of "days" (but rather, after TWO millennia, and IN the THIRD millennia); Rather than this referring to TWO "singular 24-hour days" kind of "days" and in the THIRD "singular 24-hour day" kind of day;

--in "Amill-teachings" (and so forth), after Christ's Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), there ARE NO more "days" (24-hour days)... and they say this because they claim there are NO "corroborating" scriptures, but this simply is not the case:
Isaiah 24:21-22[,23] has TWO "PUNISH" words SEPARATED BY a period of TIME which intervenes between the two,
just as Rev19 and 20 does
(i.e. Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 [/ 20:5] corresponds with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21[,22,23];
whereas Rev20:11-15 [GWTj] corresponds with the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:[21,]22a[,23]--and a TIME-PERIOD intervenes between, in each context); Therefore, their conclusion that Christ's Second Coming to the earth (in Rev19) is "the LAST 24-hour day" (of this world) is NOT biblically accurate (but many people tend to absorb their terminology and hence their "idea" on this particular Subject);

[again... consider the above]

Consider:

--Jesus Himself INDEED says that HE HIMSELF "[I come] AS A THIEF. [period]" (Rev16), speaking of His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19... FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age which will commence upon His "RETURN" there--see the "RETURN" word used in both Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-48 [and its parallel passage in His Olivet Discourse], AND in Lk19:12,15,17,19... the former of these two saying, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." .... THEN "the MEAL [G347; see this Grk word also in Matt8:11 and parallel, speaking of the earthly MK age]");

--however, when scripture refers to "the Day of the Lord" (and earthly-located TIME-PERIOD), it ADDS the phrase, "[the DOTL shall come as] A THIEF IN THE NIGHT" (1Th5:1-3)--Notice that when a text speaks of Jesus HIMSELF it NEVER uses this "[come...] IN THE NIGHT" phrase with it; but when it refers to the "TIME-PERIOD" (its arrival) it DOES add the "IN THE NIGHT" phrase;
One can confirm this idea also by further COMPARING Paul's use (in this text) of the SINGULAR FORM of the SAME Greek word that Jesus used in the PLURAL, where Paul had said that "the DOTL" will arrive exactly-like the INITIAL "BIRTH PANG [SINGULAR]" (i.e. the FIRST "BIRTH PANG" that Jesus had LISTED IN His reference to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which commence WELL-PRIOR TO His Second Coming to the earth which is further down in the text in Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13);
the FIRST "BIRTH PANG" that Jesus had LISTED is found in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]" which corresponds with both the FIRST SEAL (at the START of the 7-yr period / Trib) as well as the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the "man of sin" ("IN HIS TIME") 2Th2:9a,8a,6 (etc, etc);

--"the day of the Lord" entails ALL THREE of the following: the TRIB yrs, His Second Coming to the earth; AND the entire MK age
(IOW, it is a VERY LENGTHY TIME-PERIOD [on the earth], and not merely "a singular 24-day" kind of "day"--again, COMPARE the language in Hosea 5:14-6:3, as I pointed out above)

These are just a few of the many things to consider when viewing these texts.

It is not without in-depth study that pre-tribbers have come to conclusions we do (though I will acknowledge that many pre-tribbers often simply repeat things they've heard without having put in much "study" toward the issue, and thus sometimes their comments can indeed be "off" somewhat--we all do this at times

).

I would just encourage you to CONSIDER the above few points (there are many, many more).

Pilgrimshope · Aug 30, 2024

DavyP said:

Firstly, where does that word 'rapture' come from, because it's not in the Greek manuscripts of The New Testament?

It comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word 'harpazo', which means 'to seize' or 'take away'. In the KJV Bible Greek harpazo is translated as "caught up", etc. (1 Thess.4:17; Matt.13:19; John 6:15; John 10:12; John 10:28; Acts 8:39; 2 Cor.12:2 & 12:4).

The thing that I find many brethren are confused about, is that Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed that the saints still alive when Jesus descends from Heaven are "caught up" immediately after the dead saints are RESURRECTED first. Paul showed the asleep saints will be raised first (1 Thess,4:16). Per John 6:40, Jesus showed the future resurrection is to happen on the LAST DAY of this world.

That means brethren, that Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day... of this world, which is when the future resurrection of the asleep saints also happens. In other Scripture, like 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul showed that day of Christ's future coming "as a thief" will be on the "day of the Lord". Jesus Himself showed us that in Revelation 16:15 within the 6th Vial timing when He declared that He comes "as a thief".

So why... would a faithful servant of Jesus Christ want to listen to men's doctrines that steer one away from the written Scripture about Lord Jesus coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church, that being Lord Jesus' Own declaration of the time of His future return, as written? Why would anyone listen to men instead of our Lord Jesus Christ?

The below Scripture by Lord Jesus aligns perfectly with the gathering of the Church that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Two groups of saints are gathering when Jesus descends from Heaven according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4. The 'asleep' saints that have died Paul said that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). That's the above group that is gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." And Paul said those will be resurrected first.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

But the above example is different than the Matt.24 version. Here Jesus is pointing to the saints still alive... on earth being gathered, "...from the uttermost part of the earth...". These are "caught up" per 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This is what many call a 'rapture'.

I find that many brethren on men's pre-tribulational rapture theory don't actually understand what Apostle Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thess.4. Something is terribly wrong in Denmark because of their belief on man's pre-trib rapture idea. Lord Jesus simply did not teach that idea.

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-18‬ ‭

to people who were being persecuted severely under rome at the time it seems led like the end of the world paul is describing a “moment of rapture” when Jesus returns

a rapturous moment when Jesus get here his people at the end of the world after the tribulations have passed

Im assuming that’s where the term rapture came from but just a guess people often misunderstand and then build entire doctrines of misunderstandings

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 30, 2024

DavyP said:

The thing that I find many brethren are confused about, is... that once we are "caught up" together with them (the resurrected dead "IN Christ"--who will be resurrected *first* before we're all [as the "ONE BODY"] "caught up" at the same time)... once we're "caught up" (snatched) TO the meeting of the Lord "IN THE AIR," the next thing which happens is (what is told of in 1Th3:13--of the same CONTEXT) we will be (taken to) "in the presence of / in front of [G1715 - emprosthen ] the God and Father of us" (that is, UP THERE! meaning, FURTHER UP from the "IN THE AIR" initial "MEETING of the Lord").

Some folks mistakenly believe we'll immediately come back down from "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" location. Not so!

["our Rapture" (1Th4 / 2Th2:1) pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-21 WHEN [as to its existence])... It does NOT pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods]

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 30, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

EDIT: should read "Eph1:20-23"

tedincarolina · Aug 30, 2024

Hi @DavyP

I believe that there will be days after the gathering of the saints. In the Revelation, we find that Jesus first gathers his and then God's angel comes and delivers those left behind into the winepress of God's wrath. Those days are then described for us as the bowl judgments that are poured out upon the earth. They will be dreadful days for those who are left to deal with His wrath.

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

That's a lot of blood that will be flowing right here upon the earth, after Jesus removes those who he knows.

homwardbound · Aug 30, 2024

DavyP said:

Firstly, where does that word 'rapture' come from, because it's not in the Greek manuscripts of The New Testament?

It comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word 'harpazo', which means 'to seize' or 'take away'. In the KJV Bible Greek harpazo is translated as "caught up", etc. (1 Thess.4:17; Matt.13:19; John 6:15; John 10:12; John 10:28; Acts 8:39; 2 Cor.12:2 & 12:4).

The thing that I find many brethren are confused about, is that Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed that the saints still alive when Jesus descends from Heaven are "caught up" immediately after the dead saints are RESURRECTED first. Paul showed the asleep saints will be raised first (1 Thess,4:16). Per John 6:40, Jesus showed the future resurrection is to happen on the LAST DAY of this world.

That means brethren, that Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day... of this world, which is when the future resurrection of the asleep saints also happens. In other Scripture, like 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul showed that day of Christ's future coming "as a thief" will be on the "day of the Lord". Jesus Himself showed us that in Revelation 16:15 within the 6th Vial timing when He declared that He comes "as a thief".

So why... would a faithful servant of Jesus Christ want to listen to men's doctrines that steer one away from the written Scripture about Lord Jesus coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church, that being Lord Jesus' Own declaration of the time of His future return, as written? Why would anyone listen to men instead of our Lord Jesus Christ?

The below Scripture by Lord Jesus aligns perfectly with the gathering of the Church that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Two groups of saints are gathering when Jesus descends from Heaven according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4. The 'asleep' saints that have died Paul said that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). That's the above group that is gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." And Paul said those will be resurrected first.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

But the above example is different than the Matt.24 version. Here Jesus is pointing to the saints still alive... on earth being gathered, "...from the uttermost part of the earth...". These are "caught up" per 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This is what many call a 'rapture'.

I find that many brethren on men's pre-tribulational rapture theory don't actually understand what Apostle Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thess.4. Something is terribly wrong in Denmark because of their belief on man's pre-trib rapture idea. Lord Jesus simply did not teach that idea.

I find, no one is more special than anyone else. God having no respect of persons.
Son, Won for us all on that cross, took away all sin in that last sacrifice for anymore sin to ever be forgiven again, it is done by Son for us the people to believe it or not.
Believe God, receive this truth from God Father of risen Son and see new from God's view, not man's anymore. Once believe stand in belief, no matter what troubles come up against you. Then one will begin to see truth over errors of this world we are in. And remain humble too
This walk here on earth is not easy, especially with troubles we all go through. Therefore stand. Col. 1:21-23 , John 19:30. Matt 5:17, Hebrews 9:14-17

Bruce_Leiter · Aug 30, 2024

DavyP said:

Firstly, where does that word 'rapture' come from, because it's not in the Greek manuscripts of The New Testament?

It comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word 'harpazo', which means 'to seize' or 'take away'. In the KJV Bible Greek harpazo is translated as "caught up", etc. (1 Thess.4:17; Matt.13:19; John 6:15; John 10:12; John 10:28; Acts 8:39; 2 Cor.12:2 & 12:4).

The thing that I find many brethren are confused about, is that Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed that the saints still alive when Jesus descends from Heaven are "caught up" immediately after the dead saints are RESURRECTED first. Paul showed the asleep saints will be raised first (1 Thess,4:16). Per John 6:40, Jesus showed the future resurrection is to happen on the LAST DAY of this world.

That means brethren, that Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day... of this world, which is when the future resurrection of the asleep saints also happens. In other Scripture, like 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul showed that day of Christ's future coming "as a thief" will be on the "day of the Lord". Jesus Himself showed us that in Revelation 16:15 within the 6th Vial timing when He declared that He comes "as a thief".

So why... would a faithful servant of Jesus Christ want to listen to men's doctrines that steer one away from the written Scripture about Lord Jesus coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church, that being Lord Jesus' Own declaration of the time of His future return, as written? Why would anyone listen to men instead of our Lord Jesus Christ?

The below Scripture by Lord Jesus aligns perfectly with the gathering of the Church that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Two groups of saints are gathering when Jesus descends from Heaven according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4. The 'asleep' saints that have died Paul said that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). That's the above group that is gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." And Paul said those will be resurrected first.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

But the above example is different than the Matt.24 version. Here Jesus is pointing to the saints still alive... on earth being gathered, "...from the uttermost part of the earth...". These are "caught up" per 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This is what many call a 'rapture'.

I find that many brethren on men's pre-tribulational rapture theory don't actually understand what Apostle Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thess.4. Something is terribly wrong in Denmark because of their belief on man's pre-trib rapture idea. Lord Jesus simply did not teach that idea.

I completely agree with you. Everything will happen on the last day, when Jesus comes back. In addition, God will establish the Final Judgment then; he will also create the new heaven and earth, where we will live forever in our resurrection bodies. Praise the Lord!!

GRACE_ambassador · Aug 30, 2024

op: will there be a rapture?:
Yes, Certainly, as per God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, prayerfully and
Carefully considered:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

TMS · Aug 30, 2024

Yes there will be a rapture.

The word clearly states so...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Jesus is coming again

And it is not a secret rapture but .....

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

TMS · Aug 30, 2024

Bruce_Leiter said:

The Bible is clear that there is a thousand years between the first and second resurrection.

And the new earth is not recreated until after the second resurrection, after the second death.

Read revelation 19-21
Jesus comes and leaves the world void for 1000 years then returns and destroys all sin and death, sin will be no more. The earth is recreated and from that day life on earth begins for the saints.

After the 1000 years there is a second resurrection.
And this is for all the unsaved.
Then there is the second death. Justice is served punishment is given. But after this the earth is cleansed and God will make it new.

The saved will be with Jesus all this time
And that is in the Holy city.

Rev 20:5-6
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Shall reign with Christ 1000 years.....Joh 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Lifted_by_the_word · Aug 30, 2024

There's one reference that might point to a rapture in Exodus.

Joshua 2:1
And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there.

Two spies,or two witnesses crossed over first.A remnant crossed over first.

Nehemiah6 · Aug 30, 2024

DavyP said:

Since you have listened to men with your post-Tribulation nonsense, let us REALLY listen to the Lord Jesus Christ and properly interpret what he said about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in John 14:1-3 in 30 AD:

NO CONNECTION OF ANY TROUBLE OR TRIBULATION TO THE RAPTURE
1 Let not your heart be troubled:

JESUS IS GOD AND KNOWS ALL THINGS
...ye believe in God, believe also in me.

THE FATHER'S HOUSE IS IN HEAVEN
2 In my Father's house...

MANSIONS IN HEAVEN NOT ON EARTH, AND THEY ARE COUNTLESS
...are many mansions:

CHRIST KNOWS THIS EXACTLY AND HE WOULD NOT MISLEAD ANYONE
...if it were not so, I would have told you.

THERE'S THE RAPTURE IN BLACK AND WHITE, BUT NO ONE SEES IT
...I go to prepare a place for you.

CHRIST ASCENDED TO, AND IS NOW IN HEAVEN
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, ["a place for you" repeated twice]

THE COMING FOR THE SAINTS AT THE RAPTURE, NOT COMING TO EARTH
...I will come again,

THERE IS THE RAPTURE AGAIN. SEEN 1 THESS 4 AND 1 COR 15
and receive you unto myself;

THE LORD COMES "IN THE AIR" AND RETURNS TO HEAVEN IMMEDIATELY
...that where I am, there ye may be also.

DavyP · Aug 31, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

Sorry, but that's not true that we are gathering up to The Father's Throne in Heaven.

Zechariah 14 reveals exactly where Jesus will 'descend' to when He comes. It says His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, which is also where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1 with His Apostles seeing Him go up.

And that Zechariah 14 chapter then reveals that when Jesus's feet touch down, He brings all the saints with Him there. So the Mount of Olives in today's Jerusalem is where those of us still alive at His coming will be seized to, or caught up to. Yet there is more info of how... that event will occur per God's Word...

Do you remember Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 when he said we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be 'changed', at the 'twinkling of an eye', on the "last trump"? Paul was speaking of the day of Christ's future coming. Those of us still alive will be 'changed' to our "spiritual body" at that event of Christ's appearing, and that is how we will be "caught up" in the "air" to Him, and go with Him to the Mount of Olives per Zech.14.

Lord Jesus Christ is coming back to earth to reign for the "thousand years" of Rev.20. And even Rev.20 reveals the future "camp of the saints" will be upon this earth for His reign. So in reality, the belief that we are raptured to Heaven to reign with Jesus in Heaven is a man-made doctrine. If you can receive it, the Heavenly dimension is going to be opened up to all right here, on the earth. That's a deeper Bible subject, but it is revealed in God's Word also.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 2, 2024

DavyP said:

When He returns (to the earth), yes.

(Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and parallel], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." ...THEN "the meal [G347]" [on the earth / the EARTHLY MK age]--He will RETURN as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" in these contexts);

But Jesus ASCENDED TWO TIMES.

Acts 1 (which they "BEHELD") was the latter of these TWO times.

And He shall "SO" come "IN LIKE MANNER" as they have "SEEN" Him traveling up to heaven. TRUE!! Pre-tribbers do NOT disagree!
(This Acts 1 wording corresponds with 2Th2:8b "the MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia of Him/Jesus," when He will squash the "man of sin"/"AC"; and with Rev1:7's "and EVERY EYE shall SEE Him" [i.e. at Rev19]; and corresponding with 1Tim6:15 "which in his times he SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST]...").

But some "40 days" EARLIER He ascended the FIRST time (ON His Resurrection Day / ON "FIRSTFRUIT" [Lev23:10-12 / 1Cor15:20])... and further study shows that this "pattern" holds.

Randy4u2c · Sep 2, 2024

I Cor 15:39-55 explains that we have two bodies, a flesh body (terrestrial) and a spiritual body (celestial). At the last trump (the 7th), we who are alive and remain will be changed into our spiritual body as Christ returns to earth. (I Cor 15:51-52). In I Thes 4:13-17, starting with verse 13, it tells us not to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep believing in the Lord, for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so will God bring with him those that died believing in him. If you believe that Christ rose, you must also believe that the dead have already risen with him and not laying in some hole in the ground. Our God is the God of the living, not the dead.

It goes on to say in verses 15-17 that we who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep (because they are already there), and that the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God (the 7th or last trump), and the dead in Christ will rise first (again, already there). Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together (gathered) with them in the clouds (cloud or group of saints, not atmosphere), as Christ returns with an army of saints, and then will meet the Lord in the air. Not atmosphere but the spiritual body we are changed into at his coming. (I Cor 15:51-52)

Beware for II Thes 2:1-4 warns you that a great falling away will happen because the son of perdition (Satan) will come to earth claiming to be God and will deceive the world into worshipping him as God, because they were never taught that he comes first, before Jesus, at the 6th trump, claiming to be him. Our gathering to Christ is AFTER the appearance of Antichrist (Satan). God's elect will make the stand against Satan to expose his lies with the Holy Sprit speaking through them. (Mark 13:9-11) We don't have to fly away, Christ is coming to earth to set up his millennium temple.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 2, 2024

Randy4u2c said:

The souls and spirits of the dead in Christ are in Heaven. Therefore, in order to receive their resurrection bodies, Christ will bring their souls and spirits with Him and they all will be resurrected, and then return with Christ to Heaven.

Those who are alive at that time and are transformed and raptured will not precede them ONLY MOMENTARILY. See 1 Corinthians 15:52 to be clear about this. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

"Again already there" will simply confuse people.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 2, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

Correct!

"shall be raised [future tense] incorruptible"--at the time-slot being referenced here!

Yes, this [incorrect] notion (which many propose) indeed does cause confusion.

Where scripture says, "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE first" (before we're "caught up" TOGETHER WITH them), it means they will be "bodily resurrected first" (just as Christ was "bodily resurrected"), and resurrection means "to stand again [on the earth]".
THEN (right next) we'll be "caught up TOGETHER WITH [/at the same time, with] them"... TO the meeting of the Lord "IN THE AIR"...

IOW, the idea that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" portion (of the "ONE BODY") will be the only ones "caught up" and will meet THE DEAD IN CHRIST (in their glorified bodies) who will [supposedly] be "already there," IS INCORRECT, and does not comport with what this passage (let alone the other) IS CONVEYING.

wolfwint · Sep 2, 2024

DavyP said:

Firstly, where does that word 'rapture' come from, because it's not in the Greek manuscripts of The New Testament?

It comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word 'harpazo', which means 'to seize' or 'take away'. In the KJV Bible Greek harpazo is translated as "caught up", etc. (1 Thess.4:17; Matt.13:19; John 6:15; John 10:12; John 10:28; Acts 8:39; 2 Cor.12:2 & 12:4).

The thing that I find many brethren are confused about, is that Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed that the saints still alive when Jesus descends from Heaven are "caught up" immediately after the dead saints are RESURRECTED first. Paul showed the asleep saints will be raised first (1 Thess,4:16). Per John 6:40, Jesus showed the future resurrection is to happen on the LAST DAY of this world.

That means brethren, that Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day... of this world, which is when the future resurrection of the asleep saints also happens. In other Scripture, like 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul showed that day of Christ's future coming "as a thief" will be on the "day of the Lord". Jesus Himself showed us that in Revelation 16:15 within the 6th Vial timing when He declared that He comes "as a thief".

So why... would a faithful servant of Jesus Christ want to listen to men's doctrines that steer one away from the written Scripture about Lord Jesus coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church, that being Lord Jesus' Own declaration of the time of His future return, as written? Why would anyone listen to men instead of our Lord Jesus Christ?

The below Scripture by Lord Jesus aligns perfectly with the gathering of the Church that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Two groups of saints are gathering when Jesus descends from Heaven according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4. The 'asleep' saints that have died Paul said that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). That's the above group that is gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." And Paul said those will be resurrected first.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

But the above example is different than the Matt.24 version. Here Jesus is pointing to the saints still alive... on earth being gathered, "...from the uttermost part of the earth...". These are "caught up" per 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This is what many call a 'rapture'.

I find that many brethren on men's pre-tribulational rapture theory don't actually understand what Apostle Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thess.4. Something is terribly wrong in Denmark because of their belief on man's pre-trib rapture idea. Lord Jesus simply did not teach that idea.

We will see 😀

Mikkadugeec · Sep 3, 2024

what is rapture? move all Christians, in the time of great judgment, to a safe place? ...
transfer of pure souls from this world to heaven? .... actually move the Christian out of this dark world?

Will There Be A Rapture?

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Senior Member

Active member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

New member