Will There Be A Rapture?
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Well, your last statement just crossed the line showing me that you do not actually represent what God's written Word says, because you just called it "foolishness".
I do not care if you heed what God's Word says as written or not, that's your choice if you want to be deceived by servants of the devil that push a false pre-trib rapture theory against Christ's Own Word...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
NOTICE BRETHREN:
The above Scripture by Lord Jesus showing His coming is AFTER the tribulation to gather His Church, is nothing but "foolishness" according to Bob. That above Scripture I have posted several times already in this thread, and brethren like Bob still rejects it, otherwise he would never call what I have shown by that Scripture just "foolishness"!
I do not care if you heed what God's Word says as written or not, that's your choice if you want to be deceived by servants of the devil that push a false pre-trib rapture theory against Christ's Own Word...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
NOTICE BRETHREN:
The above Scripture by Lord Jesus showing His coming is AFTER the tribulation to gather His Church, is nothing but "foolishness" according to Bob. That above Scripture I have posted several times already in this thread, and brethren like Bob still rejects it, otherwise he would never call what I have shown by that Scripture just "foolishness"!
https://christianchat.com/threads/will-there-be-a-rapture.216189/post-5362757:
Bob-Carabbio: Of course since all through history, Christians have been murdered because of their faith, how do you propose that the "Tribulation" will be worse than what Chinese Christians and ISLAMIC victims have been going through already???
Jesus said Himself that it will the worst time ever
Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
This is Jesus telling us Himself, so we have to take this to heart.
We also have to consider what refusing the mark of the beast entails. It means we will die, but we also see the loss of physical possessions and family and friends. If you read about the holocaust during WW2, many Jews lost not only their families (with children included), but also their homes, their businesses, and even the less important things like clothes and jewelry. I used to wonder why the Nazis wanted them to disrobe and have their hair shaved - it turned out all that stuff is recycled or resold to enrich themselves and advance the Nazi cause. But it will be worse during the great tribulation.
At least the Jews had some Christians who tried to help and rescue them as God directed but as you know, most Jews died in Europe and couldn't get out. The Bible says that the whole world will hate Christians, so it will be just as difficult or even more so to try to escape this future genocide
The world will also suffer because God will start showing the people who take the mark how useless it will be. The mark is so that you can buy food for yourself and families, but that money from the mark won't help when food becomes scarce. The weather will become severe that animals and plants die (NOT from climate change! but from God Himself). On top of that, all who take the mark will develop extremely painful sores on their bodies - a severe allergic reaction by their bodies. That hate will make them violent toward us and tempt us to appease them and turn on our own.
So this will try our faith. This is why it's so important to strengthen our faith and trust in the Lord now and also to not be afraid to die and lose everything. We have to give all those things to the Lord and put Him first. To not fall apart when people we love fall away from God. To forgive when we are being betrayed by those we had trusted.
God will protect some and you have to develop a close walk with Him to be able to hear Him accurately as to how to do that. But for most of true Christians, we will die, but we need to be close to God for that too so that our deaths glorify Him. We need to keep in mind that when we die, we get go home to God and finally rest! So please don't be afraid to die for Him. Teach your children this as well. I know it sounds horrible, but Jewish children died ruthlessly in WW2. It will happen to Christian children as well in the great tribulation.
So yeah, this is why we have to warn and prepare people. There is no pre-trib rapture. We WILL face the great tribulation. Those of us young enough anyway.
🏂
Bob-Carabbio: Of course since all through history, Christians have been murdered because of their faith, how do you propose that the "Tribulation" will be worse than what Chinese Christians and ISLAMIC victims have been going through already???
Jesus said Himself that it will the worst time ever
Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
This is Jesus telling us Himself, so we have to take this to heart.
We also have to consider what refusing the mark of the beast entails. It means we will die, but we also see the loss of physical possessions and family and friends. If you read about the holocaust during WW2, many Jews lost not only their families (with children included), but also their homes, their businesses, and even the less important things like clothes and jewelry. I used to wonder why the Nazis wanted them to disrobe and have their hair shaved - it turned out all that stuff is recycled or resold to enrich themselves and advance the Nazi cause. But it will be worse during the great tribulation.
At least the Jews had some Christians who tried to help and rescue them as God directed but as you know, most Jews died in Europe and couldn't get out. The Bible says that the whole world will hate Christians, so it will be just as difficult or even more so to try to escape this future genocide
The world will also suffer because God will start showing the people who take the mark how useless it will be. The mark is so that you can buy food for yourself and families, but that money from the mark won't help when food becomes scarce. The weather will become severe that animals and plants die (NOT from climate change! but from God Himself). On top of that, all who take the mark will develop extremely painful sores on their bodies - a severe allergic reaction by their bodies. That hate will make them violent toward us and tempt us to appease them and turn on our own.
So this will try our faith. This is why it's so important to strengthen our faith and trust in the Lord now and also to not be afraid to die and lose everything. We have to give all those things to the Lord and put Him first. To not fall apart when people we love fall away from God. To forgive when we are being betrayed by those we had trusted.
God will protect some and you have to develop a close walk with Him to be able to hear Him accurately as to how to do that. But for most of true Christians, we will die, but we need to be close to God for that too so that our deaths glorify Him. We need to keep in mind that when we die, we get go home to God and finally rest! So please don't be afraid to die for Him. Teach your children this as well. I know it sounds horrible, but Jewish children died ruthlessly in WW2. It will happen to Christian children as well in the great tribulation.
So yeah, this is why we have to warn and prepare people. There is no pre-trib rapture. We WILL face the great tribulation. Those of us young enough anyway.
🏂
Well, that kind of reasoning does not work in my case, because I'm almost 70 years old. I am not showing these Scriptures in God's Word that proves Christ's coming is AFTER the tribulation to gather His Church, for my own sake. And who says it won't happen in my generation or Bob's generation in these last days? The SIGNS of the end Lord Jesus gave are pretty far in working today.
You sound young, lol!
But the older generations (except you of course) seem to not care about going through the great tribulation, thinking they'll probably die before that happens. I personally don't know when this will happen, but it could happen in 10 to 15 years? There are so many markers falling into place.
🏂
Most of that is a Pop notion that actually comes from the Pre-trib Rapture authors, like Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye. Their interpretation of the "great tribulation" is a fleshy all out WWIII, destruction doctrine pumped up to try and scare their believers so much as to make it easy for them to accept the pre-trib rapture lie.
The picture of the end, for the coming "great tribulation" that God's Word teaches, is about a time of "Peace and safety" for the majority of the world, all wars having stopped. Paul in 1 Thess.5 showed this about those who will be saying that "Peace and safety", pointing to the deceived. Revelation 13:4-8 shows the "dragon" (Satan) is coming to reign over all nations and peoples upon the earth for 42 months, and will exalt himself as God. For the majority who will believe him, there will be a chicken in every pot! Thus the idea of "great tribulation" for them is how their souls will be in great tribulation for not waiting for Christ to come.
For those us in Christ Jesus, some of us will... suffer unto death, being delivered up, with some of us not a hair on our heads shall perish (Luke 21; Mark 13). Those who remain in the Faith at that time will be hated, and even deceived loved ones will turn us in. Notice in Revelation 11 that once God's "two witnesses" are killed with their dead bodies left in the street, that the nations will rejoice because they are dead, and will send each other gifts, like having a party. That is the kind of time it will be during the coming "great tribulation", a time of peace on earth for the wicked and deceived (yet a fake peace).
The picture of the end, for the coming "great tribulation" that God's Word teaches, is about a time of "Peace and safety" for the majority of the world, all wars having stopped. Paul in 1 Thess.5 showed this about those who will be saying that "Peace and safety", pointing to the deceived. Revelation 13:4-8 shows the "dragon" (Satan) is coming to reign over all nations and peoples upon the earth for 42 months, and will exalt himself as God. For the majority who will believe him, there will be a chicken in every pot! Thus the idea of "great tribulation" for them is how their souls will be in great tribulation for not waiting for Christ to come.
For those us in Christ Jesus, some of us will... suffer unto death, being delivered up, with some of us not a hair on our heads shall perish (Luke 21; Mark 13). Those who remain in the Faith at that time will be hated, and even deceived loved ones will turn us in. Notice in Revelation 11 that once God's "two witnesses" are killed with their dead bodies left in the street, that the nations will rejoice because they are dead, and will send each other gifts, like having a party. That is the kind of time it will be during the coming "great tribulation", a time of peace on earth for the wicked and deceived (yet a fake peace).
I don't know how in the world you get that. I'm 69 years old.
The majority of brethren in my age group that I know, and who don't care about the coming "great tribulation", are usually on the man-made pre-trib rapture doctrine. That's an idea they teach, to not worry about it, because "you're going to be gone". Thus studying God's Word about it is just "foolishness" to them.
The majority of brethren in my age group that I know, and who don't care about the coming "great tribulation", are usually on the man-made pre-trib rapture doctrine. That's an idea they teach, to not worry about it, because "you're going to be gone". Thus studying God's Word about it is just "foolishness" to them.
If you read about the Holocaust, most of Europe was under false peace even France under Nazi occupation. The battles were concentrated in Russia and Northern Africa. So while Europe went on living their lives, the Nazis were deporting Jews to eastern parts of Europe to the extermination camps (where they thought no one would easily find out).
So even if the world is at peace in the great tribulation, it will not stop Satan from trying to round up Christians and killing them in "peaceful" parts of the world.
🏂
I understand what you are saying, but what I'm saying is that a lot of the 1830's pre-trib rapture scare tactics about the "great tribulation" being all out war and chaos eventually bled over into the majority of non-pre-trib rapture denominations.
I much agree with about Satan and his host will be hunting Christ's faithful down who will not bow to the false-Messiah. Like Jesus said, even deceived family members will turn against us...
Mark 13:12-13
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
We are not all going to be killed, because that idea goes against the very idea of Jesus' future coming to gather His Church from the earth of those who are still alive on that day.
I much agree with about Satan and his host will be hunting Christ's faithful down who will not bow to the false-Messiah. Like Jesus said, even deceived family members will turn against us...
Mark 13:12-13
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
We are not all going to be killed, because that idea goes against the very idea of Jesus' future coming to gather His Church from the earth of those who are still alive on that day.
I just tend to think everyone is young. But when this is all over, age is not going to matter much when we're clothed with the immortal. 
I'm glad that you keep warning all of us regardless of age.
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I'm glad that you keep warning all of us regardless of age.
🏂
As for warning, one of the major Biblical warnings I see missing on most Christian forums today is the warning about the coming false-Messiah to Jerusalem to play The Christ.
Yes, the great tribulation won't be about military fights everywhere - even WWI and WWII battles were confined to only a few areas in comparison to the rest of the planet. There will be wars during the great tribulation to be sure, but it won't be much different to those previous wars. Most of the planet will continue to live normal everyday, peaceful lives, marrying and giving in marriage, etc., etc.
I think the hate and betrayal of family and the people who had claimed to be Christian (but will fall away) is what will make it so heartbreaking for real Christians. This is why Jesus told us beforehand to endure to the end when it happens. This is why it's so important to build up our faith and trust and focus on the Lord NOW. So when the great tribulation finally happens we will be able to endure all the persecution and hardship and not give up following the Lord no matter how terrible it will be.
I want to point out the Holocaust of WWII where several million Jews got murdered (including children). The Final Solution occurred in all the "peaceful" areas of Nazi occupation - not in any of the military battles. So when the great tribulation comes and the one world government is in place - in a sense it will be like a Nazi occupation except it will be world-wide. Since it will be world wide, there really aren't many places a real Christian can escape to. Moreover, the Bible says that the WHOLE WORLD will hate us so not many people are going to want to help us. At least during WWII, Christians helped to hide and rescue Jews. We won't get that as much in the great tribulation.
To be sure God will help some of His people to survive the entire ordeal of the great tribulation just like He did with the surviving Jews of the Holocaust (by hiding them or even keeping them alive through work in the extermination camps like Auschwitz) and will be alive when He comes to collect us (we need to not panic, but trust God unwaveringly and follow whatever instructions He gives us like Noah did), but most Christians who will refuse the mark of the beast will end up coming home to the Lord before that. I think it's important for us, both adults and children, to learn not to be afraid of death even if it's death before our time.
I remember watching the pre-trib movies of the 1980s. This one silly girl was screaming and vacillating between taking the mark or not as she was being led to the guillotine. The guillotine decided for her, but I thought to myself that I don't want to die the way she did, screaming and vacillating. I don't know how far into the great tribulation I will survive (but I know I will be serving the Lord to the very end), but I want and hope and pray my death will honor and glorify God.
I think it's because so many people are making all these crazy guesses about who the antichrist is: Donald Trump, Obama, Macron, some islamic leader, etc. etc. But none of those are the actual antichrist.
The antichrist is someone we don't know yet, but I believe as you do that he WILL at first act a lot like Jesus - he might even echo some of our beliefs and work toward those things to try to win some Christians over. I mean, look at what he will do for the Jews! He will probably be the one who builds the third temple and let the Jews commence their daily sacrifices for the first 3-1/2 years (not knowing that he will desecrate it afterward and claim to be a god). He will also butter up all the other religious groups (the woman who rides the beast in the book of Revelation) before he does away with them.
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Do you think a fake Christ will meet the believers in the air?
According Paul:
✝ 1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Bible
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kjv.BIBLE
I dont believe that this will done through a fake Christ.
So, if I believe this will be pre trib. And it will be in post trib. What should be the danger?
I know that everyone who claimes to be the Christ, but is not acting like 1. Thess 4,17 is the wrong One.
Because according the bible, this is the next event to meet Jesus Christ. Correct?
According Paul:
✝ 1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Bible
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kjv.BIBLE
I dont believe that this will done through a fake Christ.
So, if I believe this will be pre trib. And it will be in post trib. What should be the danger?
I know that everyone who claimes to be the Christ, but is not acting like 1. Thess 4,17 is the wrong One.
Because according the bible, this is the next event to meet Jesus Christ. Correct?
There actually will not be any more wars during the "great tribulation". That idea is that bleed-over from the pre-trib rapture authors I was talking about. Note what Lord Jesus said about that future time...
Matt 24:6
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
KJV
Many forget to read that last part in 'red' that Jesus said. He is giving two different conditions there, one about the time when we'd hear of wars and rumors of war, and then the 'end' which will be a time opposite of wars and rumors of war. The 'end' He is pointing to is the "great tribulation" time, the very end event of this present world. This is why Revelation 13:4 asks who can make war with the beast?
Yes.
Yeah, kind of. Revelation 13:14-15 tells us the coming Antichrist will have power to cause as many who will not worship the image of the beast should be killed. At some point during that, I believe is when Lord Jesus will come and end it.
Matt 24:6
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
KJV
Many forget to read that last part in 'red' that Jesus said. He is giving two different conditions there, one about the time when we'd hear of wars and rumors of war, and then the 'end' which will be a time opposite of wars and rumors of war. The 'end' He is pointing to is the "great tribulation" time, the very end event of this present world. This is why Revelation 13:4 asks who can make war with the beast?
Yes.
Yeah, kind of. Revelation 13:14-15 tells us the coming Antichrist will have power to cause as many who will not worship the image of the beast should be killed. At some point during that, I believe is when Lord Jesus will come and end it.
I know what you're trying to ask, which appears in effort to strike down the warnings I've been saying that Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave about the coming false-Messiah in the role of Jesus Christ. That warning is not my idea, it is written and I've already well documented it from Scripture, and I plan to do a separate thread showing more Scripture about that coming event.
To be very clear about 1 Thess.4 regarding Christ's coming and His gathering His Church, that is about Christ's Church ONLY. So there is absolutely no reason to try and compare those 1 Thess.4 events to the coming Antichrist, simply because of this...
... if someone comes up to you and says, "Christ is here, or there", and you are not yet 'changed' to your "spiritual body" like Apostle Paul taught that will happen on the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15, then you know... that Christ they claim will be a fake. It is actually that simple.
Now just what did Lord Jesus warn about at the end of Luke 17 about the first one "taken"?
Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
Pre-trib rapture preachers wrongly teach those ones "taken" is about the 1 Thess.4:17 "caught up" event they call a 'rapture'. That is NOT what that "taken" idea above means, as when Christ's Apostles there asked Him, "Where, Lord?", about where those would be "taken" to, Jesus uses a metaphor that they will be where fowls are gathered to feast on a dead carcase.
The Matthew 24:28 version of Christ's answer makes it plain those fowls gather to eat on a dead "carcase"...
Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
And just to make sure that word "carcase" means exactly that, i.e., a dead corpse, the Greek word in the NT manuscripts means exactly that, a dead carcase (NT:4430). Jesus uses that dead corpse idea there to point to the 'spiritually dead', the unbeliever or those who fall away to that false-Messiah in His place.
To be very clear about 1 Thess.4 regarding Christ's coming and His gathering His Church, that is about Christ's Church ONLY. So there is absolutely no reason to try and compare those 1 Thess.4 events to the coming Antichrist, simply because of this...
... if someone comes up to you and says, "Christ is here, or there", and you are not yet 'changed' to your "spiritual body" like Apostle Paul taught that will happen on the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15, then you know... that Christ they claim will be a fake. It is actually that simple.
Now just what did Lord Jesus warn about at the end of Luke 17 about the first one "taken"?
Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
Pre-trib rapture preachers wrongly teach those ones "taken" is about the 1 Thess.4:17 "caught up" event they call a 'rapture'. That is NOT what that "taken" idea above means, as when Christ's Apostles there asked Him, "Where, Lord?", about where those would be "taken" to, Jesus uses a metaphor that they will be where fowls are gathered to feast on a dead carcase.
The Matthew 24:28 version of Christ's answer makes it plain those fowls gather to eat on a dead "carcase"...
Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
And just to make sure that word "carcase" means exactly that, i.e., a dead corpse, the Greek word in the NT manuscripts means exactly that, a dead carcase (NT:4430). Jesus uses that dead corpse idea there to point to the 'spiritually dead', the unbeliever or those who fall away to that false-Messiah in His place.
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No, that's ^ NOT the "pre-trib" rapture position on this text.
This is in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming to the earth, and "taken" is NOT a reference to "our Rapture".
The text is comparing those who were "taken" in the flood-judgment to those who (at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot) will likewise be "taken" away IN JUDGMENT.
Those "left" will be "left" to remain ON THE EARTH to enter the MK age in their mortal bodies (the "saved" ones) having the capacity to reproduce/bear children... just as in Noah's day... Compare Dan2:35c and Gen9:1 ("fill / filled the [whole] earth") with these passages in Matt24 / Lk 17 re: "taken" and "left" (about the "as the days of Noah were, so shall...")
Sure, there are still a few "pre-tribbers" who are still stuck in the early 70s when this was popularly MIS-taught as a "rapture" context (I don't deny that SOME "pre-tribbers" say such).
It just isn't the mainstream viewpoint (of pre-tribbers) that you are making it out to be. I would say that the majority of pre-tribbers understand the correct CONTEXT of these passages (that it is NOT a "rapture" context, but a "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" context, where NEITHER the "taken" or "left" of these verses speak to "our Rapture" event! At all!)
This is in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming to the earth, and "taken" is NOT a reference to "our Rapture".
The text is comparing those who were "taken" in the flood-judgment to those who (at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot) will likewise be "taken" away IN JUDGMENT.
Those "left" will be "left" to remain ON THE EARTH to enter the MK age in their mortal bodies (the "saved" ones) having the capacity to reproduce/bear children... just as in Noah's day... Compare Dan2:35c and Gen9:1 ("fill / filled the [whole] earth") with these passages in Matt24 / Lk 17 re: "taken" and "left" (about the "as the days of Noah were, so shall...")
Sure, there are still a few "pre-tribbers" who are still stuck in the early 70s when this was popularly MIS-taught as a "rapture" context (I don't deny that SOME "pre-tribbers" say such).
It just isn't the mainstream viewpoint (of pre-tribbers) that you are making it out to be. I would say that the majority of pre-tribbers understand the correct CONTEXT of these passages (that it is NOT a "rapture" context, but a "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" context, where NEITHER the "taken" or "left" of these verses speak to "our Rapture" event! At all!)
Right. It does not make sense nor jive...
... because pre-tribbers DO understand that the first time we will lay eyes upon our Lord Jesus Christ is WHEN we will be "caught up [passive]... TO the MEETING OF THE LORD in the air" (that's UP THERE), i.e. "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (UP THERE!)
... because pre-tribbers DO understand that the first time we will lay eyes upon our Lord Jesus Christ is WHEN we will be "caught up [passive]... TO the MEETING OF THE LORD in the air" (that's UP THERE), i.e. "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (UP THERE!)
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