Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[PaulThomson]

Now I wish to test the "wisdom" of the NR in here. I'm going to quote two passages from another Wisdom Book of the bible and then ask a question about both both passages. Perhaps NR can vindicate themselves and prove to all how wise you really are. Here are the passages:

Job 1:6-12
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
NIV

And,

Job 2:1-6
2:1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
NIV

Assuming everyone knows what happened to Job as consequences of God's "permissive will", my question is simply this: Can any NR explain to me how God is not morally culpable for all the evil (deprivation of good) that befell Job?

One more thing. There's a proverb that goes like this: "Wisdom is vindicated by her deeds". This is your moment to shine, NR.

Most Reformed (R) are only Reformed to the level of dissenting 15th century Christendom. But they haven't reformed beyond that stage of spiritual growth. They are really Non-Reformed in the 21st Century. The question is "Are you a Reforming Christian?" Are you capable of growth; or have you handcuffed yourself to a theological canon assembled by a particular 15th century sect? So, Rufus, you as Non-Reforming (NR) as all others wedded intransigently to pre-2015 set-in-stone systems.

God is not culpable for what Satan and Midianite marauders wanted to do of their own volition. Evil is like vicious killer dogs on leashes. Job was like a man who built his house beyond the reach of wild animals God had leashed. He was living happily and raising a family unharried by those beasts held at bay. Job is serving God and is making offerings to God on behalf of his children, hoping God will keep those dogs out of range of His kids and possessions. Why aren't the children offering their own offerings? We are not told that Job's children love God. Maybe Job, over time, begins to conclude that it is his righteous living and acceptable offerings that are winning God's blessing.

Satan alleges that Job only serves God because God is meeting Job's expectations.. So God lengthens the leashes. He does not push the reluctant wolves closer to the family. The wolves merely follow their nature and go further out and consume everyone in their path. The wolves want to do that of their own volition. So the wolves go a hunting, as wolves do, and the wolves kill his children and their wives and grand kids. Job doesn't understand why this has happened, but he assumes God Himself has done this. "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away." Job may unwittingly hold some proto-Calvinist ideas.. But Job continues to trust God.

Satan alleges that Job's continued trust in God is because he is really self-centred but that trust will collapse if the wolves get their teeth into him. God loosens the leashes enough for the wolves to clamp their jaws onto Job, but not enough that they can kill him. Now Job, with his proto-calvinist ideas of exhaustive divine determinism, does begin to blame God, accusing him of being unfair. "I know of nothing I have done to justify You setting these wolves on me. If I have, tell me what it is. If I could have an audience with You, I would be able to justify myself to You."

Only, God had not set the wolves on Job. He had simply lengthened the leashes, giving the wolves more freedom to do whatever was in their own hearts to do. Creatures brought evil into the world, not God. And creatures have to take responsibility to limit and repair the harm done by their sin. God stepping in and Himself limiting the damage evil can do, in a world that He had handed over to man to manage, is grace not a moral obligation . It is not earned. It is not something God must do to be righteous and good. Nothing could kill Job's soul. Only a renunciation of faith in God could truly kill Job. And that remained always in Job's hands: not God's, nor Satan's, nor demon's nor judgmental legalists' nor a traumatised wife's.

This is how God can allow evil to spread and to harm people, without God being morally culpable. This is how God is not morally culpable for all the evil (deprivation of good) that befell Job?

 

[Genez]

The Reformation was foundational and only a beginning to set things back in the right direction.

Christianity's thinking must keep growing and expanding in undferstanding. Not to be locked back in time like Muslims do.

 

[Mem]

Actually, if taken literally God told Adam, "To die (qal infinitive absolute) you shall be dying (qal imperfect) ". But our conclusion is the same.
On the day Adam ate of the tree, a process of slowly dying would begin which would end in complete death. It was not a proclamation that complete death would ensue on the day Adam ate.

By Adam, sin enter and death by sin. This makes me to wonder whether if Adam, indeed, brought about atrophy upon the universe.

 

[studier]

By Adam, sin enter and death by sin. This makes me to wonder whether if Adam, indeed, brought about atrophy upon the universe.

Maybe so. How does all inclusive eternality atrophy?

While I'm here. For those of us (@PaulThomson @HeIsHere @Genez and anyone else) who were discussing the phases of salvation and God choosing for salvation in 2Thess2:13 and close context, I no longer think within the phrase "en sanctification [of] spirit and belief/faith [of] truth" that the "en sanctification [of] spirit" phrase should be translated as "sanctification by the Spirit."

Without being dogmatic and without going through all the reasoning, it simply boils down to this:

• There are several ways to legitimately translate this phrase.
• Sanctification - holiness - set apartness is not spoken of strictly as an activity of God apart from Christians, but is also spoken of as involving the responding transformation and living it out as Christians as God sanctifies them - makes them holy.
• At the moment, I land on this legitimate potential translation in paraphrase of the wording to try to render this combined activity of God and the responding activity of His children:
  • God chose you for the purpose of salvation - salvation by means of (or in regard to) spiritual holiness and true faith.
    • The language provides for turning the second noun in each phrase into an adjective (spiritual, true).
    • This adjectival translation "spiritual" would thus include both God's work in the sanctifying process in all 3 stages/phases of sanctification and salvation and it would include the response of Christians becoming and living sanctified lives via the spiritual process.
    • In like manner, "true faith" would include both belief in truth and that belief being true or genuine which would parallel spiritual holiness. IOW a life of true faith parallels a life of spiritual holiness and now these two clauses are both speaking of God's work in men and men functioning according to God's work in them, which is what God's Salvation Plan for men is.

Again, not dogmatic, but at the moment I see this as being more representative of what Paul is saying. Salvation is much more than turning an unbeliever into a believer. It's turning an unbeliever into a matured son of God like their first-born brother and Lord, and then resurrecting them to be like Him. I think spiritual holiness and true faith better represents this and spiritual holiness and true faith combined mean God's sons living outwardly holy lives because faith without works is dead, and faith in God apart from obedience to God is not true faith.

I didn't want to leave this hanging.

 

[Rufus]

You bray like there is no good answer....

You also bray like someone who does not perceive the perfect righteousness of God.

So? Let someone here who is positive towards God's Word ask me why Job went through his suffering allowed by the hand of God.

To try to answer you?
I will keep my pearls in their place.


Why should I answer you?
Will you repent and dedicate your life to God whom you keep impugning his integrity?

Hmm...such a "thoughtful" reply. You don't have the answer so you insult me for asking a thought-provoking theological question. Of course, there is a good, biblical answer, which is why I played the devil's advocate by asking the question the way I did. And, yes, my answer at once glorifies God's righteousness and his wise providence in permitting all the evil that befell Job. The reason you won't give the only reasonable and biblical answer available is because you would be loathe to renounce the implications to your NR theology, which relishes one of its most precious refrains..."well, if that's true, then this makes God the author of sin." A highly favored, but equally as stupid rebuttal to Reformed theology, since it's unbiblical.

As far as keeping your "pearls" in their place, that may be the wisest thing you ever have said, since anyone with any discernment would immediately see their worthlessness.. Keep your fake pearls safely hidden in a secret place so that you'll be able to perpetuate your false security. But anyone with genuine wisdom and knowledge would be able to tell from the text itself that if God didn't allow Satan to inflict evil on Job, it would have never happened! Here are four reasons:

1, Satan himself was well aware of his own limitations of power since twice he requested of God, "stretch out your hand and strike...", which was his way of asking God's permission.

2. We know from the passages that God, by his infinite power, limited the degree of affliction Satan could impose upon Job. And we know that power was effectual because Satan was not able to go beyond the limits set by God.

3. Since God successfully established limits both times, then it's perfectly reasonable to deduce that He could have prevented everything that happened to Job but chose not to for his own purposes and glory, and instead granted Satan the permission he requested.

4. Even Job acknowledged that his dire circumstances were ultimately attributable to God to wit:

Job 2:9-10
9 His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"

10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"
NIV

After I finish catching up to all the posts where I stopped reading yesterday, I will explain (again, from the text) how Job and I are right: God was indeed ultimately responsible for all the evil that befell him; yet, at the same time not morally culpable! The fact that you cannot wrap your mind around this paradox doesn't give you license to rationalize away the truth of God's word.

P.S. So you see: People like myself who are indeed very "positive" towards God's Word can still ask tough questions.

 

[Genez]

P.S. So you see: People like myself who are indeed very "positive" towards God's Word can still ask tough questions.

Do you ask tough questions that you do not believe have legitimacy, just see what someone might respond with?
Or, do you ask because you believe them?

When you leave the one reading wondering where you stand? You are begging some to see you as being insulting to the Integrity of God. And, as in Romans One, God is capable of insulting those who insulted Him.....

You might need to learn that not all insults are unrighteous.. and to better define where you personally stand.

 

[Rufus]

Most Reformed (R) are only Reformed to the level of dissenting 15th century Christendom. But they haven't reformed beyond that stage of spiritual growth. They are really Non-Reformed in the 21st Century. The question is "Are you a Reforming Christian?" Are you capable of growth; or have you handcuffed yourself to a theological canon assembled by a particular 15th century sect? So, Rufus, you as Non-Reforming (NR) as all others wedded intransigently to pre-2015 set-in-stone systems.

God is not culpable for what Satan and Midianite marauders wanted to do of their own volition. Evil is like vicious killer dogs on leashes. Job was like a man who built his house beyond the reach of wild animals God had leashed. He was living happily and raising a family unharried by those beasts held at bay. Job is serving God and is making offerings to God on behalf of his children, hoping God will keep those dogs out of range of His kids and possessions. Why aren't the children offering their own offerings? We are not told that Job's children love God. Maybe Job, over time, begins to conclude that it is his righteous living and acceptable offerings that are winning God's blessing.

Satan alleges that Job only serves God because God is meeting Job's expectations.. So God lengthens the leashes. He does not push the reluctant wolves closer to the family. The wolves merely follow their nature and go further out and consume everyone in their path. The wolves want to do that of their own volition. So the wolves go a hunting, as wolves do, and the wolves kill his children and their wives and grand kids. Job doesn't understand why this has happened, but he assumes God Himself has done this. "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away." Job may unwittingly hold some proto-Calvinist ideas.. But Job continues to trust God.

Satan alleges that Job's continued trust in God is because he is really self-centred but that trust will collapse if the wolves get their teeth into him. God loosens the leashes enough for the wolves to clamp their jaws onto Job, but not enough that they can kill him. Now Job, with his proto-calvinist ideas of exhaustive divine determinism, does begin to blame God, accusing him of being unfair. "I know of nothing I have done to justify You setting these wolves on me. If I have, tell me what it is. If I could have an audience with You, I would be able to justify myself to You."

Only, God had not set the wolves on Job. He had simply lengthened the leashes, giving the wolves more freedom to do whatever was in their own hearts to do. Creatures brought evil into the world, not God. And creatures have to take responsibility to limit and repair the harm done by their sin. God stepping in and Himself limiting the damage evil can do, in a world that He had handed over to man to manage, is grace not a moral obligation . It is not earned. It is not something God must do to be righteous and good. Nothing could kill Job's soul. Only a renunciation of faith in God could truly kill Job. And that remained always in Job's hands: not God's, nor Satan's, nor demon's nor judgmental legalists' nor a traumatised wife's.

This is how God can allow evil to spread and to harm people, without God being morally culpable. This is how God is not morally culpable for all the evil (deprivation of good) that befell Job?

Actually, Mr. Thompson, save for your inane ramblings in your first paragraph, I'm actually impressed with your reply. Of course, you had to write a tome to express your interpretation of the passages when you could have distilled the passages down to these few points.

1. While God granted Satan the permission he sought, he did not command him to afflict Job.

2. Nor did God force Satan to afflict Job.

3. While one may reason that God's permission could be construed as approval of all the evil that Satan perpetrated, we shouldn't forget that Satan, as a "free" moral agent, himself having the knowledge of Good and Evil, knew that he should not do evil. Therefore, as you basically said above in many words, God allowed Satan to freely choose to do according to his nature. And since this is the case with this spirit moral agent, so it is with mankind! Does this make the devil a "robot" because he could only follow the dictates of his fallen nature? If not, then neither does it make fallen man a "robot"! Your understanding of the two passages under consideration unwittingly agrees with not only the Law of Identity but with Jer 13:23, as well. Congratulations!

As far as Job goes with his "proto-calvinist ideas" is concerned (Job 2:10), Solomon, the wisest man on earth (next to Christ, of course) said this about good and evil times:

Eccl 7:14
14 When times are good, be happy;
but when times are bad, consider:
God has made the one
as well as the other.
Therefore, a man cannot discover
anything about his future.
NIV

Or...how about this for added comfort:

Isa 45:7
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things?
NIV

Or if you're still not convinced:

Lam 3:37-39
37 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
Unless the Lord has commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That both good and ill [evil] go forth?

39 Why should any living mortal, or any man,
Offer complaint in view of his sins?
NASB

It seems like Job, Solomon, Isaiah and Jeremiah were all on the same page. You should consider subscribing to the Reformed hermeneutical principle called the Analogy of Faith. It's a great way to put a bridle on vain, carnal, "free-thinking" imaginations that are most prone to come up with clever and false interpretations. This principle will assure in the end an interpretation that is harmonious with the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/analogyfaith.html

 

[Rufus]

Do you ask tough questions that you do not believe have legitimacy, just see what someone might respond with?
Or, do you ask because you believe them?

When you leave the one reading wondering where you stand? You are begging some to see you as being insulting to the Integrity of God. And, as in Romans One, God is capable of insulting those who insulted Him.....

You might need to learn that not all insults are unrighteous.. and to better define where you personally stand.

Oh...but the tough question I asked most certainly has "legitimacy" in NR circles due to what I stated previously.

Methinks only YOU were left wondering where I stood. (And this fact very likely has something to do with you clutching so tightly to your bosom your fake, phony baloney pearls of "wisdom", proving you had no discernment. Apparently everyone else was savvy enough to see I was playing the devil's advocate to eventually make one or more theological points.

 

[Genez]

1. While God granted Satan the permission he sought, he did not command him to afflict Job.

2. Nor did God force Satan to afflict Job.

Why aren't you asking the question that matters?

Why did Satan want to inflict Job?

Just to see Job agonize?


There was a court room hearing going on.
Satan is the accusing attorney wishing to prove the judge should be impeached..

So why did Satan wish to make Job suffer?
To prove what?

The Bible tells what Satan's objective was.

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. ​

“Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything ​

he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds ​

are spread throughout the land. ​

​

But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely ​

curse you to your face.” Job 1:9-11​

​

But, why was that Satan's objective????

But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely ​

curse you to your face.”​

Was is pettiness and mere jealousy on Satan's part?

No.... It was much deeper than that.

.... grace and peace

 

[Genez]

Oh...but the tough question I asked most certainly has "legitimacy" in NR circles due to what I stated previously.

Methinks only YOU were left wondering where I stood. (And this fact very likely has something to do with you clutching so tightly to your bosom your fake, phony baloney pearls of "wisdom", proving you had no discernment. Apparently everyone else was savvy enough to see I was playing the devil's advocate to eventually make one or more theological points.

You are still a high school bully at heart.
Are you going to grow up and stop having an affinity for such negative false doctrines you want to inflict upon us?

That's why I avoid answering you.

For what good is it to show you the truth? When you are only wanting to see a challenge
to prove to yourself how much you can trample on.

“Do not give that which is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before pigs,​

for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6​

If you really want me to answer you?
Since you think you are so good at it?
First prove that verse wrong.

.............

 

[Rufus]

Why aren't you asking the question that matters?

Why did Satan want to inflict Job?

Just to see Job agonize?


There was a court room hearing going on.
Satan is the accusing attorney wishing to prove the judge should be impeached..

So why did Satan wish to make Job suffer?
To prove what?

The Bible tells what Satan's objective was.

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. ​

“Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything ​

he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds ​

are spread throughout the land. ​

​

But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely ​

curse you to your face.” Job 1:9-11​

​

But, why was that Satan's objective????

But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely ​

curse you to your face.”​

Was is pettiness and mere jealousy on Satan's part?

No.... It was much deeper than that.

.... grace and peace

Because it wasn't the only question that matters to the incredible Wisdom Book of Job. That's why!

 

[Rufus]

You are still a high school bully at heart.
Are you going to grow up and stop having an affinity for such negative false doctrines you want to inflict upon us?

That's why I avoid answering you.

For what good is it to show you the truth? When you are only wanting to see a challenge
to prove to yourself how much you can trample on.

“Do not give that which is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before pigs,​

for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6​

If you really want me to answer you?
Since you think you are so good at it?
First prove that verse wrong.

.............

Easy enough in your case. You haven't given me anything that is holy or valuable. But...you are a great noise maker!

 

[Mem]

Maybe so. How does all inclusive eternality atrophy?

In distancing from the source, or so I think, hence the agenda of the serpent, who'd already been completely severed, to cause the rift between man and God. This might even sufficiently address the significance of chasm between the rich and man Lazarus wherein physical death ratifies each individual's eternal state.

 

[Genez]

Because it wasn't the only question that matters to the incredible Wisdom Book of Job. That's why!

OK... I see.. Play stupid, and act like you gave a valid answer.

 

[Genez]

Easy enough in your case. You haven't given me anything that is holy or valuable. But...you are a great noise maker!

Why should I, when Jesus said not to give it to your kind?

“Do not give that which is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before pigs,​

for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6​

Slowly it might begin to sink in..

We see through you.

 

[Genez]

......

​

​

“Do not give that which is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before pigs,​

for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6​

Perhaps?

Rufus might be here looking for some fresh flesh to feed his dog?

 

[Magenta]

4. Even Job acknowledged that his dire circumstances were ultimately attributable to God to wit:

Job 2:9-10 His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"
10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" NIV

Job 1:21b; 13:15a

 

[Genez]

For those who wish insight and better understanding as to why Satan asked of the Lord permission to hurt Job.........

The problem is with providing an answer?
Its going to invite negative diversion to get our mind away from what was said.

Ok then...

Here is an insight that may take some time to think with understanding. For it must be concluded
with enough doctrinal information to understand it.

And? Guaranteed: Those who are agents of false teaching will want to get our concentration scattered quickly as they can.
Can we agree to stick what is going to be said, and not lose sight of it?

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around ​

him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, ​

so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your ​

hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” Job 1:9-11​

Considering all the importance, authority, and power of those involved?
Why was Satan wanting to make such a major issue out of simply getting Job to curse God to his face?

The problem began with Satan himself.

For when Satan first rebelled against God? God being the Father He is?
Chastened Satan as a son in a desire to get Satan to come to his senses and repent.
God wanted to restore Satan if Satan was to be willing to be made corrected.

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding ​

your blood, striving against sin. ​

And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.” Hebrews 12:4-6​

Scourging was punishment that came close to skinning one alive. Most painful.
Meant to break down all resistance, arrogance, and pride if one could be humbled by the experience.

I can not speak for anyone else.

But after I got saved? God scourged me. I was put through some very depressing, painful, and personal
dark revelations about myself which were designed to wipe any chance for self pride to remain in me.
Such scourging, that God knows perfectly how to inflict, I believe, is why some want to cling so tightly
to the concept of total depravity of man. It makes them feel they are not alone and we are all as messed
up as they found themselves to be. Its comforting to know its not just yourself.

Well.... Satan rebelled in some prehistoric time.

God scourged Satan after he rebelled. Which eventually resulted in the judgment and utter destruction of the
prehistoric world. A world that Satan and his angels were included in having dominion over. Just like Adam was
given dominion over our present created world.

Satan at some point became arrogant and exalted himself, making himself to feeling to be all powerful over the
prehistoric world. That was when God as a Father was caused by God to chasten/hurt Satan terribly in hopes of
knocking Satan back into his senses.

Instead of repentance? Satan cursed the Lord to his face!

That was the time when Satan was thrown down to earth like lightning!
Which some scientist today hypothesize as the reason why dinosaurs went extinct after a great asteroid impacted the earth!
For Satan was a light bearing angel, and used to herald in the mornings of the prehistoric world!

Afterwards? And, refusing to repent?
Satan gossiped among all the angels that if God made them each suffer as he was made to suffer?
Suffer the same way under the hand of God? That, they too, would have done the same thing.
That they.... would have also cursed the Lord to his face!

That is why Satan was so determined to prove his point with Job. That he was truly justified in having cursed
the Lord to his face. Which was to be proven by using Job by placing Job under great undeserved suffering.
Resulting in Job inevitably cursing God to his face!

Instead? Job put Satan to shame.
Job left Satan to be without excuse.

That is why maturing Christians will have times of what is called 'undeserved suffering.'
For our testimony during those times are being witnessed to by the angels who study what we do.

Some say? Insight is always so simple?

It requires much learning and study, and having consistent guidance by the Spirit to be led into what
one could have never have thought of for themselves if they had been functioning on their own emotions.

Grace is the inner energy that God works in us to make us become what He desires to see us to become all to His glory!

Now... Any questions?


grace and peace ...............

 

[Rufus]

OK... I see.. Play stupid, and act like you gave a valid answer.

I'm stupid because you naively believe your question is the only valid one to ask about the Book of Job?

 

[Genez]

I'm stupid because you naively believe your question is the only valid one to ask about the Book of Job?

It was not my question...

Where you been?

I learn from others.