Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Genez]

Wisdom of the wise is gained from just about anywhere. Making me smile.

Some wish to sound wise, and claim to profess wisdom .....
When its produced for building up their sense of self image, and is pretentious.

Instead of displaying wisdom?
They will speak the opposite of wisdom -
... Dumb-wise.

Its kind of like the mainstream media claiming to be our source for the truth
when it gives many details and alleged facts.

 

[HeIsHere]

Keep in mind. The true people of Israel (not the church) were also chosen before the foundation of the world, for God's eternal purpose that the Jews in their own resurrection will have in God's eternal kingdom.

We, in contrast to the chosen Jews, were chosen IN HIM. That's the difference.
What does it mean? "Chosen in Him?"

It means.... God chose a Bride for His Son.

How? IN HIM!

For where was the woman before Adam was placed into the deep sleep?
The woman's body was IN ADAM.

Its deep... Requires one puts down his sword for his defense.
And, thinks.

Quietly .....

My eschatology and yours are different so while I can think deeply and understand your post I am not able to comply with the overall interpretation you provide.

I do like see the truth that Eve was IN Adam and the analogy with the Bride of Christ and Christ being in them.
Very cool.

 

[Rufus]

If we take what God told Adam, literally word for word, "dying ye shall die," and indeed, I think it was Paul that said that he died every day. However, in speaking of Christ, scripture says, "a smoldering wick He will not quench" and so it offers pause to consider the idea whether a smoldering wick, still has the potential in it to be reignited. That is, is a smoldering wick still 'live'? Smoky the Bear used to warn campers about leaving smoldering fires unattended, after all.

Even if that translation is accurate (which is how YLT reads), that still wouldn't mean that Adam didn't die spiritually the moment he ate and eventually physically. After all, Adam became a living being by virtue of God "breathing" the Spirit of Life into him whereby he became a living being physically AND spiritually!

Also, the text does say specifically...in the day you eat. So, are we to understand that as meaning..."in the day you eat...dying ye shall die"? (By the way...that is the first prophecy in scripture.). If God meant to convey the idea of slowly dying over the course of very many days, then why did he say "in the day you eat"?

Furthermore, there's clear evidence that Adam did die spiritually on that day because both he and Eve ran and hid themselves from God. They instinctively separated themselves from the presence of God and that is precisely what spiritual death isn't it? They feared him because they knew they sinned against him. They knew they were guilty.

Thirdly, we know from the OT that God who gave his Spirit freely also took him away just as freely!

Also, are we to believe that the Holy Spirit wasn't taken from Adam after he sinned....yet all his progeny come into this world as spiritual stillborns!? How could that be!? If we inherit his sin, how come we don't also inherit his spiritual life, if the Spirit didn't depart from him? Yet, scripture teaches that we ourselves are the Darkness of Death when enter this world! Adam is always, always, always contrasted with the Last Adam. But if you deny he died spiritually, then you must put him on par with the Last Adam of whom it is written:

Isa 11:1-3
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him —
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD —
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
NIV

Is this your idea of Adam, as well? He compares very well with the Last Adam? Adam stayed filled with the Holy Spirit after he sinned? That's why he ran and hid from God - and even worse tripled down on his Original Sin by denying his guilt (itself a lie!) and implying to God that he gave him a defective woman, so his predicament is God's fault and the woman's (another lie!)? Also, God clearly implied in the post-Fall account that Adam was of the Serpent's seed, yet he was still alive in the Spirit? How does that work exactly? How does one simultaneously be alive in the Spirit while at the same time being the spiritual seed of Satan?

Yes, Paul said he dies daily -- not to God but to HIMSELF so that he can LIVE to God! Big difference!

P.S. Also, ol' Smoky never had to worry about putting out any "smoldering wicks" in the dark dead souls of sinners who naturally hate the light.

 

[Rufus]

Some wish to sound wise, and claim to profess wisdom .....
When its produced for building up their sense of self image, and is pretentious.

Instead of displaying wisdom?
They will speak the opposite of wisdom -
... Dumb-wise.

Its kind of like the mainstream media claiming to be our source for the truth
when it gives many details and alleged facts.

Mockery won't get you anywhere...well, except in your own mind. Read these words of Wisdom:

Prov 9:8a, 12b
8a Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you...12b if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer.
NIV

 

[Rufus]

Now I wish to test the "wisdom" of the NR in here. I'm going to quote two passages from another Wisdom Book of the bible and then ask a question about both both passages. Perhaps NR can vindicate themselves and prove to all how wise you really are. Here are the passages:

Job 1:6-12
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
NIV

And,

Job 2:1-6
2:1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
NIV

Assuming everyone knows what happened to Job as consequences of God's "permissive will", my question is simply this: Can any NR explain to me how God is not morally culpable for all the evil (deprivation of good) that befell Job?

One more thing. There's a proverb that goes like this: "Wisdom is vindicated by her deeds". This is your moment to shine, NR.

 

[Magenta]

I am not able

Just use your free will!

 

[Rufus]

Atheism exists, Mormonism exists, Islam exists, of course there is no proof, but their belief system exists. smh





Of course he has the power to!! But He doesn't!! The Bible DOES NOT say God created a people for the sole purpose of going to hell !! We have a choice and we choose life or death. THAT is what the Bible says!





But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who gave himself a ransom for ALL

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked

For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

“Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.



Sigh, you just talk don't you? You don't read a thing. No one said sinners weren't in need of saving grace. smh

You don't believe in the necessity of understanding scripture in its 3-in-1 context either, do you?

 

[Mem]

Even if that translation is accurate (which is how YLT reads), that still wouldn't mean that Adam didn't die spiritually the moment he ate and eventually physically. After all, Adam became a living being by virtue of God "breathing" the Spirit of Life into him whereby he became a living being physically AND spiritually!

Also, the text does say specifically...in the day you eat. So, are we to understand that as meaning..."in the day you eat...dying ye shall die"? (By the way...that is the first prophecy in scripture.). If God meant to convey the idea of slowly dying over the course of very many days, then why did he say "in the day you eat"?

Furthermore, there's clear evidence that Adam did die spiritually on that day because both he and Eve ran and hid themselves from God. They instinctively separated themselves from the presence of God and that is precisely what spiritual death isn't it? They feared him because they knew they sinned against him. They knew they were guilty.

Thirdly, we know from the OT that God who gave his Spirit freely also took him away just as freely!

Also, are we to believe that the Holy Spirit wasn't taken from Adam after he sinned....yet all his progeny come into this world as spiritual stillborns!? How could that be!? If we inherit his sin, how come we don't also inherit his spiritual life, if the Spirit didn't depart from him? Yet, scripture teaches that we ourselves are the Darkness of Death when enter this world! Adam is always, always, always contrasted with the Last Adam. But if you deny he died spiritually, then you must put him on par with the Last Adam of whom it is written:

Isa 11:1-3
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him —
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD —
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
NIV

Is this your idea of Adam, as well? He compares very well with the Last Adam? Adam stayed filled with the Holy Spirit after he sinned? That's why he ran and hid from God - and even worse tripled down on his Original Sin by denying his guilt (itself a lie!) and implying to God that he gave him a defective woman, so his predicament is God's fault and the woman's (another lie!)? Also, God clearly implied in the post-Fall account that Adam was of the Serpent's seed, yet he was still alive in the Spirit? How does that work exactly? How does one simultaneously be alive in the Spirit while at the same time being the spiritual seed of Satan?

Yes, Paul said he dies daily -- not to God but to HIMSELF so that he can LIVE to God! Big difference!

P.S. Also, ol' Smoky never had to worry about putting out any "smoldering wicks" in the dark dead souls of sinners who naturally hate the light.

Thank you for the insight as to why you think the that way you do.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You don't believe in the necessity of understanding scripture in its 3-in-1 context either, do you?

Ok, explain your 3 in 1 context with the Scriptures I shared.

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who gave himself a ransom for ALL

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked

For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

“Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

 

[Rufus]

Ok, explain your 3 in 1 context with the Scriptures I shared.

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who gave himself a ransom for ALL

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked

For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

“Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

I have in the past, explained many of these passages. I've also explained how universal terms are very frequently used in a limited sense, etc.

Right now....I have bigger fish to fry. But you quoted one text that I know is in my file. I posted on 2Pet 3:9 back on April in my 5075: but to save you the trouble of searching for it, I'll repost it here since it's short.

You're misunderstanding 2 Pet 3. God is patient toward the elect, not the world. You have to pay close attention to the pronouns and the terms of endearment that Peter uses in this passage. Who are the people he's addressing in v. 11, v.12, v.13? And who are the "dear friends" in vv. 8, 14 and 17? And in v. 9, who is God patient towards -- who are the 'you" in this verse: the world or the Jewish believers to whom Peter was writing? If Peter is saying in v. 9 that God doesn't want anyone in the entire world to perish, then why didn't he say that God is patient with the entire world? It seems to me that God would be patient toward those he doesn't want to perish. Peter was writing to believers who were in danger of falling away due to all the false teaching they were receiving. In fact, Peter exhorts his brothers strongly in 1:10 to be all the more eager to make "your calling and election sure". Hence, why God wants them to come to repentance (3:9).

 

[Genez]

Mockery won't get you anywhere...well, except in your own mind. Read these words of Wisdom:

Prov 9:8a, 12b
8a Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you...12b if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer.
NIV

I deal with what you say.
Not with you.

The Book of Wisdom, or the Wisdom of Solomon, is a book written in Greek and most likely composed​

in Alexandria, Egypt. It is not part of the Hebrew Bible but is included in the Septuagint. Generally dated ​

to the mid-first century BC,[1] or to the reign of Caligula (AD 37-41)​

​

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Wisdom Book of Wisdom​

​

How old was Solomon when he wrote that???

grace and peace ............

 

[Rufus]

I deal with what you say.
Not with you.

The Book of Wisdom, or the Wisdom of Solomon, is a book written in Greek and most likely composed​

in Alexandria, Egypt. It is not part of the Hebrew Bible but is included in the Septuagint. Generally dated ​

to the mid-first century BC,[1] or to the reign of Caligula (AD 37-41)​

​

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Wisdom Book of Wisdom​

​

How old was Solomon when he wrote that???

grace and peace ............

Excellent! God favors the courageous. I look forward to your thoughtful reply to the question I asked earlier today in my 9805.

And re your question about Solomon's age: Older than dirt?

 

[Genez]

Excellent! God favors the courageous. I look forward to your thoughtful reply to the question I asked earlier today in my 9805.

Here was your question...

Assuming everyone knows what happened to Job as consequences of God's "permissive will", my question is simply this: Can any NR explain to me how God is not morally culpable for all the evil (deprivation of good) that befell Job?

First all? What does 'NR' mean?
Now....


Job had nothing to do with God's permissive will.
Permissive will only pertains to the believer, not Satan who was asking permission to prove something to God.
The permissive will of God for the believer is God allowing a believer to do something outside of God's will for his life.
Satan, being the accusing attorney, was seeking to prove something to God, which was for Satan's own benefit.

Satan made a wager with the Lord concerning Job.
Satan claimed that is God allowed Job to suffer undeservingly?
That Job would curse the Lord to his face.

The real question often not asked?

Why was that so important to Satan?
What was Satan out to prove, and why?

In Christ ......

 

[Rufus]

Here was your question...

Assuming everyone knows what happened to Job as consequences of God's "permissive will", my question is simply this: Can any NR explain to me how God is not morally culpable for all the evil (deprivation of good) that befell Job?

First all? What does 'NR' mean?
Now....


Job had nothing to do with God's permissive will.
Permissive will only pertains to the believer, not Satan who was asking permission to prove something to God.
The permissive will of God for the believer is God allowing a believer to do something outside of God's will for his life.
Satan, being the accusing attorney, was seeking to prove something to God, which was for Satan's own benefit.

Satan made a wager with the Lord concerning Job.
Satan claimed that is God allowed Job to suffer undeservingly?
That Job would curse the Lord to his face.

The real question often not asked?

Why was that so important to Satan?
What was Satan out to prove, and why?

In Christ ......

So, God didn't grant Satan the permission he asked for? Satan just unilaterally acted? Who set the terms of this bet: God or Satan?
Seems crystal to me that God gave the Evil One permission. Gave him the green light! Satan certainly understood his limitations which accounts for why on both occasions Satan said to God, "But stretch our YOUR hand and strike..." Very strange language for someone who supposedly acted unilaterally.

11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

And,

4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
NIV

And have you forgotten the temptation of Peter (Lk 12:31-32) whereby Satan "asked" or "demanded" to sift St. Pete like wheat? It's clear that God granted that permission, as well!

So...my real question still stands: How can God not be morally culpable for permitting the Evil One to bring great evil upon Job? How do these two passages not make God the Author of Sin? Clearly the passages do not teach that Satan unilaterally acted on his own. Nor do the passages teach that he set the terms of this little wager! Nor do the passages teach that Satan imposed restrictions upon himself in terms of how much harm he could do to Job each time. In fact...there's even worse incriminating evidence against God because He "provoked" Satan. Satan didn't throw Job into God's face, did he?

In fact, sir, when it comes right down to the nitty grity, nuts and bolts, brass tacks and the very easy to understand narrative, it would not be far fetched at all to say that God granted Satan authority over Job, albeit limited.

P.S. "NR" for the umpteenth time = Non-Reformed -- a very appropriate label for label-haters. Talking about which -- maybe you can convince your bosom buddy Mr. Studier to help you out here. Or PT? It seems you could use some help from your friends. I mean... what else are they for?

 

[Magenta]

And have you forgotten the temptation of Peter (Lk 12:31-32) whereby Satan "asked" or
"demanded" to sift St. Pete like wheat? It's clear that God granted that permission, as well!

Luke 22:31-32 ~ Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat...

 

[Genez]

So, God didn't grant Satan the permission he asked for? Satan just unilaterally acted? Who set the terms of this bet: God or Satan?
Seems crystal to me that God gave the Evil One permission. Gave him the green light! Satan certainly understood his limitations which accounts for why on both occasions Satan said to God, "But stretch our YOUR hand and strike..." Very strange language for someone who supposedly acted unilaterally.

11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

And,

4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
NIV

And have you forgotten the temptation of Peter (Lk 12:31-32) whereby Satan "asked" or "demanded" to sift St. Pete like wheat? It's clear that God granted that permission, as well!

So...my real question still stands: How can God not be morally culpable for permitting the Evil One to bring great evil upon Job? How do these two passages not make God the Author of Sin? Clearly the passages do not teach that Satan unilaterally acted on his own. Nor do the passages teach that he set the terms of this little wager! Nor do the passages teach that Satan imposed restrictions upon himself in terms of how much harm he could do to Job each time. In fact...there's even worse incriminating evidence against God because He "provoked" Satan. Satan didn't throw Job into God's face, did he?

In fact, sir, when it comes right down to the nitty grity, nuts and bolts, brass tacks and the very easy to understand narrative, it would not be far fetched at all to say that God granted Satan authority over Job, albeit limited.

P.S. "NR" for the umpteenth time = Non-Reformed -- a very appropriate label for label-haters. Talking about which -- maybe you can convince your bosom buddy Mr. Studier to help you out here. Or PT? It seems you could use some help from your friends. I mean... what else are they for?

You bray like there is no good answer....

You also bray like someone who does not perceive the perfect righteousness of God.

So? Let someone here who is positive towards God's Word ask me why Job went through his suffering allowed by the hand of God.

To try to answer you?
I will keep my pearls in their place.


Why should I answer you?
Will you repent and dedicate your life to God whom you keep impugning his integrity?

 

[PaulThomson]

If we take what God told Adam, literally word for word, "dying ye shall die,"

Actually, if taken literally God told Adam, "To die (qal infinitive absolute) you shall be dying (qal imperfect) ". But our conclusion is the same.
On the day Adam ate of the tree, a process of slowly dying would begin which would end in complete death. It was not a proclamation that complete death would ensue on the day Adam ate.

 

[Genez]

Actually, if taken literally God told Adam, "To die (qal infinitive absolute) you shall be dying (qal imperfect) ". But our conclusion is the same.
On the day Adam ate of the tree, a process of slowly dying would begin which would end in complete death. It was not a proclamation that complete death would ensue on the day Adam ate.

Two deaths... In dying you shall die.

First death was spiritual.
Which led to the second death - physical.

He died immediately (spiritual) when he ate.
Hundreds of years later as result, he finally died physically.

Jesus when he was forsaken because of bearing our sins died spiritually. That Father and Spirit forsake Him.
He could not cry out "Father" while being forsaken.

When he saw that all had been complete (last sin paid for) he returned using the vocative "Father."
And? When Jesus said ..."It is Finished." He was yet physically alive.

Those subtle details means that we need to start thinking in terms of what it says, rather than what we feel when exposed to what took place.

Grace and peace!

 

[HeIsHere]

First death was spiritual.
Which led to the second death - physical.

He died immediately (spiritual) when he ate.
Hundreds of years later as result, he finally died physically.

Jesus when he was forsaken because of bearing our sins died spiritually.

Agree with the first part, when you say Jesus died spiritually do you mean He was separated from the Father?

 

[Genez]

Agree with the first part, when you say Jesus died spiritually do you mean He was separated from the Father?

That's why He screamed out... "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?"

"My God! My God!" = The Father and Holy Spirit.
Both God forsook him while he was becoming sin for us.
They both stopped being a part of his function.

As far as his own Deity?
Inside him remained.
But, became grieved and quenched, unable to remain being a part of his function.

His soul was all alone on the Cross.
The only thing that stabilized him in his agony was the Bible doctrine he retained to think with while he endured the greatest horrific ordeal beyond any human soul has ever gone through.