Predestination; are fates set in some cases?
- Thread starter Truthnightmare
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Ok. I can say exactly what I just said in Biblical responses if ya like:
Isaiah 46:10
New King James Version
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
Isaiah 57:15
New King James Version
15 For thus says the High and Lofty One
Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:
“I dwell in the high and holy place,
With him who has a contrite and humble spirit,
To revive the spirit of the humble,
And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
N
Niki7
Guest
Your 2nd paragraph is your own imagination and not found in scripture. Whether true or not, who can say. The danger in this, is that you are trying to state you somehow have this knowledge and we should believe you.
It seems you might believe you are teaching here. I don't engage in speculation as truth, however you can speculate until the world ends.
did they have coffee and cookies at that meeting? smh
What has God declared from the beginning? The end. God has determined the end. We can read all about it in Revelation. To make this say that God has determined who will be saved, is not being true to the scriptures. God has, and is, and always will be...I agree.
I wrote -
Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
Jeremiah 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their
sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had
it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
I think you are saying that the texts mean the following -
Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind [to command or speak it]:”
Jeremiah 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their
sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had
it ever entered My mind [to command it], that they should [by My command] commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
Am I understanding your argument correctly?
Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
Jeremiah 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their
sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had
it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
I think you are saying that the texts mean the following -
Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind [to command or speak it]:”
Jeremiah 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their
sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had
it ever entered My mind [to command it], that they should [by My command] commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
Am I understanding your argument correctly?
Essentially yes. God is astonished that a people who He has related to and instructed so faithfully would do such things. It's similar to Jeremiah 2:9-13.
Do you agree with the syllogism below?
A: God foreknows who will accept the will of God: and
B: God intended from the beginning to assist to be conformed to the image of Jesus all those who accept His will: therefore
C: We can assert that God has predestined those who accept God's will to be conformed to Jesus' image.
Not "to assist" but to actually "TRANSFORM BY DIVINE POWER" each believer.
The body, soul, and spirit will be totally cleansed ad perfected by the power of God and Christ, so that all God's children are as perfect as Christ, and also possess glorious and glorified bodies. This is in fact MIRACULOUS.
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.(1 John 3:1-3)
I think you misunderstood me; my previous post wasn't a challenge to a debate.
I was merely asking you to clarify your position since it was unclear to me.
I merely wanted to know if you hold the view that God's foreknowledge is limited.
.
What exactly was predestined?
Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son...
We will be Christlike, we have been predestined for this.
Careful with the usage of 'foreknow'. Paul, I believe was referring to the Jews. Those previously known by God.
Romans 11:1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
The occurrence of 'foreknew' above is directly declaring that God foreknew the Jews.
See how easy it is to misread a verse.
No. That is incorrect. Paul was referring to all believers (the ones He justifies) in one context and to the Jews in another context.
These scriptures do not discount the fact that He foreknew them.. That He would seal them. That He foreknew who would believe..
Indeed..
Amen..
Thanks be to God..
Yes and He has known the ones who are to be sealed from the foundation of the world..
(Revelation 13:8) "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
(Revelation 17:8) "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
Yes..
In that God's Holy Spirit works upon people who will be saved AND on people who will be damned.. So God does not FORCE one person to accept His will to be saved and BLOCKS another person from accepting His will.. His Holy Spirit will work on people.. Some will be meek and accept the moving of the Spirit while others will resist the Holy Spirit..
No.. The scriptures only declare that God predestinates some to conform to the image of The LORD Jesus.. It is calvinists to expanded the word of God and add to it that God predestined some to believe and others to reject His will.. If you look at the most famous predestination verse in the Bible it only deals with being conformed to the image of His son..
(Romans 8:29) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
No where does God say He predestinated them to believe and accept His will..
Let us refrain from using terms that are nowhere listed in the Bible like:
Triune, Trinity, Oneness, God the Son, three person or Jesus Only. If anyone can think of others please post them to this message.
John146 said: Let's take a biblical example from the book of Jonah. Did God lie? Did God change his mind?
Jonah 3:
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
An omnipotent being can predict specific future events and use omnipotence to bring them about to prove His omnipotent power to fulfil His promises. Predicting specific events and bringing them to pass does not logically prove foreknowledge of all future events.
The Jonah text cited means what it says.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and [in response] God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
What do you think it means? Why would God repent only after seeing that they turned, if God knew in advance that they would turn? Why would God say He was going to destroy them in three days, if He already knew He was not going to destroy them in three days? Would that theoretical perspective on the nature of God not make Him a liar?
Jonah 3:
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
What they would do had no real existence, since it had not happened yet. Their future behaviour was at most a bunch of probability functions with no real resolution as yet. God knows all that exists and has existed, including any specific plans He has formulated and any probability functions in their unresolved form, That is all a being needs to know to be truly omniscient,
An omnipotent being can predict specific future events and use omnipotence to bring them about to prove His omnipotent power to fulfil His promises. Predicting specific events and bringing them to pass does not logically prove foreknowledge of all future events.
The Jonah text cited means what it says.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and [in response] God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
What do you think it means? Why would God repent only after seeing that they turned, if God knew in advance that they would turn? Why would God say He was going to destroy them in three days, if He already knew He was not going to destroy them in three days? Would that theoretical perspective on the nature of God not make Him a liar?
Do you believe God knows all the future? I ask because a God who knows all the future being astonished at anything that happens is logically contradictory.
God has foreknowledge, meaning that he knows what will happen, but he does not determine what will happen (That is left to the will of man.)
He didn't. He chose Jacob over Esau before either had done anything good or evil. God hated Esau in the time of Malachi God hated Esau's descendants called Esau for persecuting Jacob's descendants called Jacob, unlike Esau the actual brother who in the end accepted Jacob's preeminence.