Predestination; are fates set in some cases?

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Cameron143 said:
I know what you believe concerning the sovereignty of God. We disagree about what that consists of. That being the case, re-engaging on the topic is unlikely to be fruitful at this time. Grace and peace.
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No dictionary defines "sovereign" as "causing everything that happens". A "sovereign" state is one that does not have another state in authority over them. And yet many things happen within that state that the government does not cause or desire/will.

So, rather than just ignore the texts that are problematic to your opinions, how do you explain,
Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
 
PaulThomson said:
No dictionary defines "sovereign" as "causing everything that happens". A "sovereign" state is one that does not have another state in authority over them. And yet many things happen within that state that the government does not cause or desire/will.

So, rather than just ignore the texts that are problematic to your opinions, how do you explain,
Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
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You begin by implying I believe sovereignty to mean something I do not believe, neither have ever stated. What I said is that I understood what John understands it to mean. We have discussed this topic a number of times. So you err believing you understand what I understand sovereignty to mean.
Secondly, there is a difference between knowing something through the intellect, and knowing something through experience. One is knowing about as a result of intellectual endeavor; the other is intimate knowledge as a result of actually experiencing the reality of your intellectual endeavor. For example, I can know about God from reading the Bible. I can know intellectually He is a comforting God. And then one day perhaps I find myself in distress and God draws near to me and comforts my soul. I already knew intellectually that God is the God of all comfort because I have read it in the Bible. But now I know because I have experienced it for myself. That's what I believe is happening in the verses. Much the same as Job expresses in Job 42:5...I had heard of Thee with the hearing of mine ear, but now my eyes seeth Thee.
I have shared this same basic message with John before and he doesn't share my understanding. So I didn't answer because, as I previously stated, I didn't care to renew the same line of past discussions.
It's generally better to assume someone means what they write than to assume they don't understand a topic. Just because someone doesn't agree with your understanding doesn't mean they are opposing you.
 
Cameron143 said:
You begin by implying I believe sovereignty to mean something I do not believe, neither have ever stated. What I said is that I understood what John understands it to mean. We have discussed this topic a number of times. So you err believing you understand what I understand sovereignty to mean.
Secondly, there is a difference between knowing something through the intellect, and knowing something through experience. One is knowing about as a result of intellectual endeavor; the other is intimate knowledge as a result of actually experiencing the reality of your intellectual endeavor. For example, I can know about God from reading the Bible. I can know intellectually He is a comforting God. And then one day perhaps I find myself in distress and God draws near to me and comforts my soul. I already knew intellectually that God is the God of all comfort because I have read it in the Bible. But now I know because I have experienced it for myself. That's what I believe is happening in the verses. Much the same as Job expresses in Job 42:5...I had heard of Thee with the hearing of mine ear, but now my eyes seeth Thee.
I have shared this same basic message with John before and he doesn't share my understanding. So I didn't answer because, as I previously stated, I didn't care to renew the same line of past discussions.
It's generally better to assume someone means what they write than to assume they don't understand a topic. Just because someone doesn't agree with your understanding doesn't mean they are opposing you.
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What is your understanding of God's sovereignty?

So, did your answer above explain why God said,
Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" ?
 
PaulThomson said:
What is your understanding of God's sovereignty?

So, did your answer above explain why God said,
Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" ?
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Sorry. When I said sovereignty I should have said omniscience. And yes, my previous answer was an attempt to explain the verses.
 
PaulThomson said:
Your syllogism is -

A: God foreknows our lives before we live them. And,
B: We are living our lives. Therefore,
C: God has predestined our lives.


Why do premises A and B necessitate the conclusion C ?
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A: correct
B: correct
C: Incorrect. I said God foreknows our lives NOT predestined our lives.. We have the freedom to accept or reject the leading of the Holy Spirit..

What evidence makes your first premise certain?
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Scriptures that declare God foreknew whom he would predestine to be transformed into the image of Jesus and the Book of Life which had the names of all that where going to be saved from the foundation of the world..
 
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maxwel said:
I'm afraid I don't understand the point of this verse.

Are you referring to God's knowledge, and making a claim that God's foreknowledge is limited?



.
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When did God know that Abraham feared God? According to the passage? "Now I know....seeing that...
 
Adstar said:
Scriptures that declare God foreknew whom he would predestine to be transformed into the image of Jesus
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Yes, God has to know someone first before he predestinates them to be conformed to the image of his Son. That's the future adoption, the redemption of the body. The question is, when does God know a man as one of his?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
 
Cameron143 said:
Sorry. When I said sovereignty I should have said omniscience. And yes, my previous answer was an attempt to explain the verses.
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The passage clearly states what God said he now knows...that Abraham feared God. How did God know that Abraham feared God? When God saw that Abraham was going to sacrifice his only son. Calvinist's have to play the word game to explain away the clear meaning of scripture. I'm not accusing you, but that's what I have witnessed.
 
John146 said:
Yes, God has to know someone first before he predestinates them to be conformed to the image of his Son. That's the future adoption, the redemption of the body. The question is, when does God know a man as one of his?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
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From the founding of creation.. He knows the beginning to the end.. He foreknew all who would be conformed to the image of His son from the beginning..
 
Adstar said:
From the founding of creation.. He knows the beginning to the end.. He foreknew all who would be conformed to the image of His son from the beginning..
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But now after that ye are known of God...sounds like it was a point in time...but now...

Your theology doesn't mesh with scripture. Here's another one. How does the Lord know who are his?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows who are his by his seal, the Holy Spirit. How does one receive the seal? By hearing and believing the gospel.

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1. One must hear the gospel
2. One must believe the gospel
3. One is sealed with the Holy Spirit
4. God knows the one who is sealed
 
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PaulThomson said:
New King James Version
Prov. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the Lord.

Does this translation accurately communicate the way Jews understood this verse before and into the first century?

The Hebrew says literally: " Into-the lap is-cast the-lot/recompense/retribution but-with/from-YHWH every-justice/judgment/ordinance-of-it."
This proverb lends itself to a variety of interpretations. Interestingly, the Septuagint translates this verse as,
"Eis kolpous (into the lap) eperchetai (falls) panta tois adikois (every unjust thing) para de kuriou (but from the Lord) ta dikaia. (the just things [fall in the lap]."

So, Jews who translated the proverb into Greek understood "lots" as being liable to result in either just or unjust outcomes, but affirmed that only the just outcomes were from the Lord.
It sounds a lot like the sentiment of James 1:13, 16-17 "Let no man say when he is tempted/tried 'I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither thepts any man... Do not err, my beloved brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness neither shadow of turning."

Proverbs 16:33 is not teaching exhaustive pre-determinism, i.e. that God ordains every just and unjust event; but that while both just and unjust events comes to us all, only what is just comes from the Lord.
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I misread "panta tois adikois" in the LXX as "every unjust thing". It actually says "everything to/for the unjust ones", So in full -

"Eis kolpous (into the lap) eperchetai (falls) panta tois adikois (everything to/for the unjust ones) para de kuriou (but with/from the Lord) panta ta dikaia. (all just things [fall in the lap]."

Let me unpack that into what I think that corrected literal translation means. in better English.
" For the unrighteous ones everything (whether just or unjust) falls into the lap, but all just things (that fall into the lap) are with/from the Lord."
This agrees with the Hebrew: " Recompense is cast into the lap, but from the LORD every just aspect of it."

In other words, "Life throws a random mix of consequences at the unrighteous, but all the consequences that are just are from the LORD (perhaps implying that unjust consequences that happen to us are not from the LORD).
 
Adstar said:
From the founding of creation.. He knows the beginning to the end.. He foreknew all who would be conformed to the image of His son from the beginning..
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Nothing in scripture indicates that from the foundation of the world God knew by name all individuals who would be saved. God foreknew the Israel of God, the church, the bride which He had planned to form from those who turned to Christ and trusted Him. Nothing in scripture says He knew from the foundation of the world who the individuals in that church would be. Do you have a scripture that does?
 
Adstar said:
C: Incorrect. I said God foreknows our lives NOT predestined our lives..
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God has predestined the destination of those whom He has chosen, and works actively to ensure they reach it. He did not predestine that I would have coffee this morning.
We have the freedom to accept or reject the leading of the Holy Spirit..
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We have limited freedom, but will always act according to our nature.
 
Adstar said:
A: correct
B: correct
C: Incorrect. I said God foreknows our lives NOT predestined our lives.. We have the freedom to accept or reject the leading of the Holy Spirit..



Scriptures that declare God foreknew whom he would predestine to be transformed into the image of Jesus and the Book of Life which had the names of all that where going to be saved from the foundation of the world..
Click to expand...
You said "God predestines because He foreknows our lives before we live them..".

So your syllogism was -

Your syllogism is indeed -

A: God foreknows our lives before we live them. And,
B: We are living our lives. Therefore,
C: God has predestined our lives.

The following syllogism is a meaningless tautology -

A: God foreknows our lives before we live them. And,
B: We are living our lives. Therefore,
C: God foreknows our lives.

When you said, "God predestines because He foreknows our lives before we live them..". what are you imagining him predestining, if not our lives?
 
NightTwister said:
God has predestined the destination of those whom He has chosen, and works actively to ensure they reach it. He did not predestine that I would have coffee this morning.

We have limited freedom, but will always act according to our nature.
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God has predestinated those who are in Christ unto the adoption. The adoption is the redemption of the body. It is when we are finally conformed to the image of his Son. It is the final destination of those in Christ. One is not predestined to be in Christ, but once in Christ, God has determined their destination.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 
John146 said:
God has predestinated those who are in Christ unto the adoption. The adoption is the redemption of the body. It is when we are finally conformed to the image of his Son. It is the final destination of those in Christ. One is not predestined to be in Christ, but once in Christ, God has determined their destination.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
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Which does not negate anything that I said.
 
PennEd said:
Umm. God dwells in eternity. Outside the time domain.
He only knew something was going to happen once it happened?

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That's not a biblical response. One cannot use human reasoning to define God. Allow the scripture to define what we know about God. God has given man time, and has chosen to work within that time he has given.
 
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