Predestination; are fates set in some cases?
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Before the creation of the universe, God apparently had planned provision for man's misuse of free will and the production of a family of believing sons and daughters, the Son committing Himself to be the atonement for any sins man might commit., and the Father committing to accept whosoever puts their trust in the Son.
1 Pet. 1:19-20 "with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, who was verily foreordained before the foundation of the world..."
Eph 1:4 "according as He has chosen us before the foundation of the world..."
So there was some discussion and planning of two matters (the cross and the church) within the triune Godhead before our changing physical universe was initiated. Conversation requires words to be spoken in a certain order, one AFTER another. A plan requires arranging details in some viable order, this before that, Hence communication and planning takes time, even for the Trinity. That this created world experiences time does not imply that that which is uncreated does not experience time.
1 Pet. 1:19-20 "with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, who was verily foreordained before the foundation of the world..."
Eph 1:4 "according as He has chosen us before the foundation of the world..."
So there was some discussion and planning of two matters (the cross and the church) within the triune Godhead before our changing physical universe was initiated. Conversation requires words to be spoken in a certain order, one AFTER another. A plan requires arranging details in some viable order, this before that, Hence communication and planning takes time, even for the Trinity. That this created world experiences time does not imply that that which is uncreated does not experience time.
In 1 Tim. 2:11-12 the KJV mistranslates hEsuchia as silence instead of as ruliness., the KJV telling us that Timothy's congregant women' women should remain silent rather than be decent and orderly, or ruly.. It was the Corinthian women who were told to be silent( sigatOsan) until the learned to be ruly in church.
It translates the same word hEsuchia in 2 Thess. 3:12 as quietness, meaning ruliness, saying, "Now them that are such we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ that they work with quietness (meaning peaceably or in a ruly manner) and eat their own bread," rather than saying, "Now them that are such we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ that they work in silence and eat their own bread." Men are not required to be silent as they work.
In the KJV Luke 23:43 is punctuated incorrectly saying, "And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to you, today shalt thou be with me in paradise," instead of ,"And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to you today, with me thou shalt be in paradise." We know Jesus went to suffer torments in hades bearing our sins, not to chill out with Abraham and Lazarus until Sunday. Ps 18
It translates the same word hEsuchia in 2 Thess. 3:12 as quietness, meaning ruliness, saying, "Now them that are such we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ that they work with quietness (meaning peaceably or in a ruly manner) and eat their own bread," rather than saying, "Now them that are such we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ that they work in silence and eat their own bread." Men are not required to be silent as they work.
In the KJV Luke 23:43 is punctuated incorrectly saying, "And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to you, today shalt thou be with me in paradise," instead of ,"And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to you today, with me thou shalt be in paradise." We know Jesus went to suffer torments in hades bearing our sins, not to chill out with Abraham and Lazarus until Sunday. Ps 18
Which chapter and verse says God was surprised?
Not Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
Nor Jeremiah 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their
sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had
it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
Not Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
Nor Jeremiah 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their
sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had
it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
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Here's Scripture:
Proverbs 16:33
New King James Version
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the Lord.
John 1:12-13
New King James Version
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Chew on those passages a bit.
Proverbs 16:33
New King James Version
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the Lord.
John 1:12-13
New King James Version
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Chew on those passages a bit.
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Why not go through the bible and correct all the "mistakes" and gives us lowly people a perfect bible. The KJV is correct in both passages. Allow the bible to define such terms.
I have no problem with Proverbs 16:33, God works things out according to his word, even when man is against it.
John 1, It has always been God's will to save them that believe on his Son. Man cannot will salvation any other way.
I have no problem with Proverbs 16:33, God works things out according to his word, even when man is against it.
John 1, It has always been God's will to save them that believe on his Son. Man cannot will salvation any other way.
Yep. Even for KJV only dudes it still means God make the decisions.
Here’s the Word in Strongs, using the KJV.
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4941.htm
Here’s the Word in Strongs, using the KJV.
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4941.htm
I'm reading this debate and I want to ask a question for clarification in my own mind, just to make sure I'm understanding John146 correctly.
Are you arguing for God's ignorance? Are you saying there are things that happen God just didn't know would happen? I think you suggested He could be surprised? Is this what you're really suggesting, or am I off here?
Are you arguing for God's ignorance? Are you saying there are things that happen God just didn't know would happen? I think you suggested He could be surprised? Is this what you're really suggesting, or am I off here?
Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
Jeremiah 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their
sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had
it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
Jeremiah 32:35 They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their
sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had
it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
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1
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God saw and then he knew...
Genesis 22
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Genesis 22
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
New King James Version
Prov. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the Lord.
Does this translation accurately communicate the way Jews understood this verse before and into the first century?
The Hebrew says literally: " Into-the lap is-cast the-lot/recompense/retribution but-with/from-YHWH every-justice/judgment/ordinance-of-it."
This proverb lends itself to a variety of interpretations. Interestingly, the Septuagint translates this verse as,
"Eis kolpous (into the lap) eperchetai (falls) panta tois adikois (every unjust thing) para de kuriou (but from the Lord) ta dikaia. (the just things [fall in the lap]."
So, Jews who translated the proverb into Greek understood "lots" as being liable to result in either just or unjust outcomes, but affirmed that only the just outcomes were from the Lord.
It sounds a lot like the sentiment of James 1:13, 16-17 "Let no man say when he is tempted/tried 'I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither thepts any man... Do not err, my beloved brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness neither shadow of turning."
Proverbs 16:33 is not teaching exhaustive pre-determinism, i.e. that God ordains every just and unjust event; but that while both just and unjust events comes to us all, only what is just comes from the Lord.
Prov. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the Lord.
Does this translation accurately communicate the way Jews understood this verse before and into the first century?
The Hebrew says literally: " Into-the lap is-cast the-lot/recompense/retribution but-with/from-YHWH every-justice/judgment/ordinance-of-it."
This proverb lends itself to a variety of interpretations. Interestingly, the Septuagint translates this verse as,
"Eis kolpous (into the lap) eperchetai (falls) panta tois adikois (every unjust thing) para de kuriou (but from the Lord) ta dikaia. (the just things [fall in the lap]."
So, Jews who translated the proverb into Greek understood "lots" as being liable to result in either just or unjust outcomes, but affirmed that only the just outcomes were from the Lord.
It sounds a lot like the sentiment of James 1:13, 16-17 "Let no man say when he is tempted/tried 'I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither thepts any man... Do not err, my beloved brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness neither shadow of turning."
Proverbs 16:33 is not teaching exhaustive pre-determinism, i.e. that God ordains every just and unjust event; but that while both just and unjust events comes to us all, only what is just comes from the Lord.