The tongues that are...

[GRACE_ambassador]

..."Unknown"? Is there really such a thing in God's Word Of Truth?

Does God Really Have Two Different gifts of tongues??

We just read, on another thread, where we were judged as non-christian
because we have never "spoken in tongues as the sign of" a saved christian.
We wish this were not so, as we do love and pray for our Pentecostal
brethren, and hopefully this study will be a gentle discussion, in all
kindness In The LORD, answering the above questions:

"...Tongues of men

It is true that when the gift of tongues was introduced at Pentecost, it
empowered men with the supernatural ability to speak in a known,
identifiable human language with which they were not familiar. We
know this because the specific languages in which they spoke are
listed for us in Acts 2:4-11...

We also know that God gave this gift to the Jews because He intended
to make the nation of Israel “a kingdom of priests” (Ex. 19:6) to minister
His word to the Gentiles (Isa. 61:6), and what good is a priest that doesn’t
speak your language?..."

“ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, ​

even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, ​

We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you”​

(Zech. 8:23)..."​

[And/OR the second gift?]:

"...Tongues of angels...

... our Pentecostal friends...contend that when Paul spoke to the
Corinthians about “the tongues of men and of angels” (I Cor. 13:1),
that this was a reference to “an unknown tongue” (14:2) spoken by
angels, and that this is the gift God gave to the Corinthians, and
which He continues to give men today.

Of course, since none of us “speak angel,” it is impossible to verify
that those who speak in tongues today are speaking in a legitimate
language, as the foreigners visiting Jerusalem were able to do at
Pentecost (Acts 2:11)...
"
(R Kurth)


FULL study 'link'

Grace, Peace, and JOY!

 

[ResidentAlien]

The tongues issue is really a symptom of a much bigger problem in the body of Christ. Restorationism is the real problem. It teaches that the New Testament church has to be restored in all aspects before Christ can return. Of course signs and wonders like tongues are part of it.

People have deluded themselves into thinking so-called angelic tongues is the genuine article. It's really little more than a manufactured "gift" to serve the greater goal of restorationism. Restorationists claim that God is restoring the church; however, it's not God but people serving an agenda.

 

[Gideon300]

The tongues issue is really a symptom of a much bigger problem in the body of Christ. Restorationism is the real problem. It teaches that the New Testament church has to be restored in all aspects before Christ can return. Of course signs and wonders like tongues are part of it.

People have deluded themselves into thinking so-called angelic tongues is the genuine article. It's really little more than a manufactured "gift" to serve the greater goal of restorationism. Restorationists claim that God is restoring the church; however, it's not God but people serving an agenda.

I suggest that you look into the Welsh revival in the very early 1900's. It was characterised by the restoration of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There was a mini revival in Australia in the 1970's. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was restored to mainstream denominations. Amazing and wonderful things happened in the 1970's. The tragedy is that, like most revivals, it fizzled out. Churches went back to "business as usual".

Also in the 1970's, God spoke to the church in Australia about the church as the Body of Christ. Some churches embraced this. However, most fellowships paid lip service, usually by starting home groups, while maintaining the pyramid structure inherited from Roman Catholicism. This leads to overloaded pastors and a congregation that never grows up.

Jesus is Head and Builder of His glorious church. The true church will emerge. I know of some fellowships that do follow the NT pattern. I expect more to rise up soon.

Some tongues talking is manufactured and fake. My wife was manipulated into speaking in a"tongue" before she was even saved. She was born again and baptised in the Holy Spirit some years later. She speaks in tongues now. It's the real thing, not fake. I received the Baptism of the Spirit Christmas Eve, 1974. I was on my own, not in a church building. I spoke in a tongue spontaneously.

There is much that is counterfeit and deceptive. However, you cannot counterfeit something that is not real in the first place. There is much talk about revival at the moment. I am sceptical. There is so little sound teaching that Christians can be easily deceived. I hope that I'm wrong.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I suggest that you look into the Welsh revival in the very early 1900's. It was characterised by the restoration of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There was a mini revival in Australia in the 1970's. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was restored to mainstream denominations. Amazing and wonderful things happened in the 1970's. The tragedy is that, like most revivals, it fizzled out. Churches went back to "business as usual".

Also in the 1970's, God spoke to the church in Australia about the church as the Body of Christ. Some churches embraced this. However, most fellowships paid lip service, usually by starting home groups, while maintaining the pyramid structure inherited from Roman Catholicism. This leads to overloaded pastors and a congregation that never grows up.

Jesus is Head and Builder of His glorious church. The true church will emerge. I know of some fellowships that do follow the NT pattern. I expect more to rise up soon.

Some tongues talking is manufactured and fake. My wife was manipulated into speaking in a"tongue" before she was even saved. She was born again and baptised in the Holy Spirit some years later. She speaks in tongues now. It's the real thing, not fake. I received the Baptism of the Spirit Christmas Eve, 1974. I was on my own, not in a church building. I spoke in a tongue spontaneously.

There is much that is counterfeit and deceptive. However, you cannot counterfeit something that is not real in the first place. There is much talk about revival at the moment. I am sceptical. There is so little sound teaching that Christians can be easily deceived. I hope that I'm wrong.

I don't need to look at anything. Nothing you can say will convince me. It's always the same old story: Much is fake, much is deceptive, but not everything. I'm here to say yes, everything's fake, everything's deceptive. If you've fallen for it that's your problem.

 

[Gideon300]

I don't need to look at anything. Nothing you can say will convince me. It's always the same old story: Much is fake, much is deceptive, but not everything. I'm here to say yes, everything's fake, everything's deceptive. If you've fallen for it that's your problem.

Sure, throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's the easy way, but it's not right.

 

[CS1]

..."Unknown"? Is there really such a thing in God's Word Of Truth?

Does God Really Have Two Different gifts of tongues??

We just read, on another thread, where we were judged as non-christian
because we have never "spoken in tongues as the sign of" a saved christian.
We wish this were not so, as we do love and pray for our Pentecostal
brethren, and hopefully this study will be a gentle discussion, in all
kindness In The LORD, answering the above questions:

"...Tongues of men

It is true that when the gift of tongues was introduced at Pentecost, it
empowered men with the supernatural ability to speak in a known,
identifiable human language with which they were not familiar. We
know this because the specific languages in which they spoke are
listed for us in Acts 2:4-11...

We also know that God gave this gift to the Jews because He intended
to make the nation of Israel “a kingdom of priests” (Ex. 19:6) to minister
His word to the Gentiles (Isa. 61:6), and what good is a priest that doesn’t
speak your language?..."

“ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, ​

even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, ​

We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you”​

(Zech. 8:23)..."​

[And/OR the second gift?]:

"...Tongues of angels...

... our Pentecostal friends...contend that when Paul spoke to the
Corinthians about “the tongues of men and of angels” (I Cor. 13:1),
that this was a reference to “an unknown tongue” (14:2) spoken by
angels, and that this is the gift God gave to the Corinthians, and
which He continues to give men today.

Of course, since none of us “speak angel,” it is impossible to verify
that those who speak in tongues today are speaking in a legitimate
language, as the foreigners visiting Jerusalem were able to do at
Pentecost (Acts 2:11)...
"
(R Kurth)

View attachment 245529
FULL study 'link'

Grace, Peace, and JOY!

glad you see you refer to us as friends and not as brothers and sisters. I guess you think were not Christians or saved? And any rate I
I agree in part with what you are saying but not fully. The next is what you do agree with in Acts 2, do you believe that still happens today? If not, why?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

glad you see you refer to us as friends and not as brothers and sisters. I guess you think were not Christians or saved?

That would be (I am not God, The Judge Of hearts of men), a Very BAD
guess on my part. In addition, the tongues issue would be a secondary
issue compared to the primary commission of The Gospel Of Grace.

So, would you consider us brothers and sisters if we testified that
we believe in God's Salvation "By Grace Through faith in The LORD
Jesus Christ, and in His Death, Burial, And Resurrection"
(Eph 2:8 and 1Co 15:3-4)?

IF we agree on That, then would we be off to a "good start" for
fellowship with Him, and with each other, as "brothers and sisters,"
Correct?

Grace, Peace, and JOY!

 

[CS1]

That would be (I am not God, The Judge Of hearts of men), a Very BAD
guess on my part. In addition, the tongues issue would be a secondary
issue compared to the primary commission of The Gospel Of Grace.

So, would you consider us brothers and sisters if we testified that
we believe in God's Salvation "By Grace Through faith in The LORD
Jesus Christ, and in His Death, Burial, And Resurrection"
(Eph 2:8 and 1Co 15:3-4)?

IF we agree on That, then would we be off to a "good start" for
fellowship with Him, and with each other, as "brothers and sisters,"
Correct?

Grace, Peace, and JOY!

you asked a question but did not answer mine. Please do.

What do you agree with in Acts 2? Do you believe that still happens today? If not, why?

 

[oyster67]

There are thousands of tongues, and the Lord knows every one.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

you asked a question but did not answer mine. Please do.

Sorry, can't be done, According To Scripture (Rule #1 Bible study rules):

“Let ALL things be done Decently and In Order!”
(1 Corinthians 14:40

Thus, if we are not "saved brothers and sisters," any secondary issue
discussions Will Be useless, Correct?

Thus, do we agree on and believe God's Gospel Of GRACE, For Today?:

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

 

[SomeDisciple]

Heh. Well, at least I can agree with GA on something. That's nice.

An unknown tongue is exactly what it sounds like- a tongue that is not known to "someone". If you don't know it, it's unknown to you.
There are multiple instances where god speaks to people in an unknown tongue when judgement is coming upon them... it's generally a bad practice to go around speaking in tongues at people.

 

[Nehemiah6]

... our Pentecostal friends...contend that when Paul spoke to the Corinthians about “the tongues of men and of angels” (I Cor. 13:1), that this was a reference to “an unknown tongue” (14:2) spoken by angels, and that this is the gift God gave to the Corinthians, and which He continues to give men today.

Tongues is simply a divisive issue and discussing tongues is pointless.

 

[studentoftheword]

Doubt in speaking in tongues -----

Unless you yourself have Experienced the giving of this gift by and through the Holy spirit yourself you will be in doubt -----or ever worse feel your not saved -----you do not need to speaking in tongues to be saved ----

The Scripture Clearly says there are 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit ------and the gift of Tongues is one of the Gifts ----if you don't believe that this gift is in play today then you cannot believe in any of the Gifts that are listed in ! Corinthians 12 ----

You CANNOT disregard speaking in Tongues and say you believe that the rest of the gifts are relevant today -------the Bible says Clearly that ALL Scripture is Inspired by GOD ------these gifts are given Supernaturally -----by the Holy Spirit -----if you deny one you deny them all ---------

Also I think people have no idea that there is a difference in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the infilling of the Holy Spirit -----

When you get saved you have the indwelling of the Holy spirit -----

The infilling of the Holy Spirit is given to bring about God's purpose ----- the infilling of the Holy Spirit bring to the person power and might to do what God has called them to do -----the Disciples were Filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost --to do the work they were called to do ------they were given the ability to speak in other earthly languages so their people could understand what was being preached to inbirth the Faith needed to be saved -------

In the old Testament ----you see this man was FILLED with the Holy Spirit to accomplish God's work

Exodus 31
New International Version
Bezalel and Oholiab
31 Then the Lord said to Moses, 2 “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—
4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You either believe this Scripture as it is or your Don't believe it at all ------

I say

Please Note verse 7 ------
this says to EACH ONE is Given -------this is the INdwelling of the Holy Spirit ---given to each person who receives Jesus in their hearts

verse 7 ------manifestation of the [Holy] Spirit [the evidence, the spiritual illumination of the Spirit] for good and profit.
----

Please Note ----Verse 6 ---says ----these are given to accomplish God's purpose -------the infilling of the Holy Spirit ------

Verses 8--9--10 -----says to ONE is given ----to Another ONE is given -------gift of tongues is included here -----


1 Corinthians 12

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

12 Now about the spiritual gifts (the special endowments of supernatural energy), brethren, I do not want you to be misinformed.

4 Now there are distinctive varieties and distributions of endowments (gifts, [a]extraordinary powers distinguishing certain Christians, due to the power of divine grace operating in their souls by the Holy Spirit) and they vary, but the [Holy] Spirit remains the same.

5 And there are distinctive varieties of service and ministration, but it is the same Lord [Who is served].

6 And there are distinctive varieties of operation [of working to accomplish things], but it is the same God Who inspires and energizes them all in all.

7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the [Holy] Spirit [the evidence, the spiritual illumination of the Spirit] for good and profit.

8 To one is given in and through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] a message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] a word of knowledge and understanding according to the same [Holy] Spirit;

9 To another [[b]wonder-working] faith by the same [Holy] Spirit, to another the extraordinary powers of healing by the one Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight ([c]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues.

11 All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Tongues is simply a divisive issue and discussing tongues is pointless.

A lot of issues are divisive. Maybe we should just stop discussing anything.

 

[studentoftheword]

Can a Believer Pray today for the infilling of the Holy Spirit -----I say yes --and Paul says that you should earnestly pray for the Gifts of the Spirit -----in 1 Corinthians 14 ----seeking Agape and Prophecy he says is better as you build up the Church -----where as tongues builds up the person only-----

So if you really want these gifts ---you can Pray for them ------


1 Corinthians 14

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

14 Eagerly pursue and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching).

2 For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding].

3 But [on the other hand], the one who prophesies [who [b]interprets the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching] speaks to men for their upbuilding and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation.

4 He who speaks in a [strange] tongue edifies and improves himself, but he who prophesies [[c]interpreting the divine will and purpose and teaching with inspiration] edifies and improves the church and promotes growth [in Christian wisdom, piety, holiness, and happiness].

5 Now I wish that you might all speak in [unknown] tongues, but more especially [I want you] to prophesy (to be inspired to preach and interpret the divine will and purpose).
He who prophesies [who is inspired to preach and teach] is greater (more useful and more important) than he who speaks in [unknown] tongues, unless he should interpret [what he says], so that the church may be edified and receive good [from it].

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have the gift of tongues

I got this gift as the Padre and his wife anointed me with oil and prayed over me in the Church to have this gift ---as they both spoke in tongues -----

I use it in my personal Prayer time ---it builds you up in strength and Faith ----

The Gift of tongues is powerful ---when I pray in tongues I feel so uplifted ---so free of any burden that were weighing me down ----so peaceful ----sometimes the tears just flow freely as I am praying in tongues my emotions are set in motion even though I do not know what i am praying ----

HELPS word-Studies
3618 oikodoméō (figuratively) to edify – literally, "build someone up," helping them to stand (be strong, "sturdy") .fig. of the building up of character: I build up, edify, encourage.

I think that 9 gifts of the Spirit are not talked about much or explained properly in any of the main stream Churches ---- they are a part of God's word that is put on the back burner or watered down or down played as are so many other hard subjects of God's word ----very sad -----

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Doubt in speaking in tongues -----

Unless you yourself have Experienced the giving of this gift by and
through the Holy spirit yourself you will be in doubt

Scripture Is my Assurance, not my 'experience' * - there are way too
Many 'experiences' (nde's, healings, casting out demons, handling
snakes, dreams, visions, etc) claiming that they are God's Truth, for
Today, Under Grace - these experiential claims are Highly DOUBTFUL;
and all these go Above "That Which Is Written" as God Teaches...:

​

1Co 4:6​

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to​

myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in​

us not to think above That Which Is Written, that no one of ​

you be puffed up for one against another."​

...Is it not?

Very Problematic amidst all the church Confusion Today, Correct?

* I have, as a 'babe in Christ,' had two experiences - should I
trust them?:

1) got invited to a service where EVERYONE "stood up and
spoke in tongues at once." Now should I [unlearned] go back
and "learn more," OR:

According To Scriptures, IF the "gift is For Today," then were they
"following the rules"?:

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it​

be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and​

let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep ​

silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to​

God.​

Isn't that Disobedience since God Through Paul, Teaches:

​

1Co 14:23​

"If therefore the whole church be come together into one​

place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those​

that are unlearned [me, the babe], or unbelievers, will they​

not say that ye are mad?"​

strike one - at that time, I 'did not know what to say' about the
experience, but, TODAY, I had better RUN from them, eh?

2) Months later, still learning and wondering about the gift, I was
watching TV - the preacher told this babe that I could "have it" -
Very Simply "place my hand on the TV, and pray and ask God For
it." Results? = nothing happened. Was that a false preacher, or as
my experience with the judgmental folk - they like to put it:

'I did NOT have ENOUGH faith,' so, NO 'gift' for me? strike two, eh?

3) At this late hour [after 43 years], what do you think? Should I
"try the experience" thing again, or:

Simply believe The Scriptures (That 'Which Is Perfect'), Which Have
Been COMPLETED, * and "that which WAS in Part" (the gifts of prophecy,
knowledge, and tongues) have now "failed, vanished away, and CEASED."
(1Co 13:8-10), studying God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided?
+
God's Better Gifts Remain, do They not, Today, Under Grace?:

1Co 13:13 "And NOW Abideth faith, hope, charity, these three;
but The GREATEST of these is Charity [Love!]."

IF only we had WAY MORE of this Greatest Gift, instead of "biting
and Devouring one another" over Disagreeing doctrines, eh?

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)! * Completed With Christ's Revelation Of His
Mystery! (Romans Through Philemon)

 

[SomeDisciple]

Scripture Is my Assurance, not my 'experience' *

Ideally, that's how it should be, but there is a lot of disagreement on what exactly the scriptures that pertain to speaking in tongues actually mean; even among people in the same charismatic/pentecostal denomination... even in the same church will tell you "this is how it works, this is what it means" and guess what? Completely different stories, completely different explanations, completely different interpretations.

these experiential claims are Highly DOUBTFUL;
and all these go Above "That Which Is Written" as God Teaches...:

Paul is saying that they should think anything about himself and the apostles above that which is written. I don't think he was laying down a general principle here- he's talking about a very specific subject. Not to say that going by the scriptures isn't right- but you're definitely taking a partial verse- a sentance fragment even, and ripping it out of context to lay down a general principle. It looks really bad.

Simply believe The Scriptures (That 'Which Is Perfect'), Which Have
Been COMPLETED, * and "that which WAS in Part" (the gifts of prophecy,
knowledge, and tongues) have now "failed, vanished away, and CEASED."

You have to make a HUUUUUUUUGE assumption to come to this conclusion. There is not a hint that "the scriptures" are what Paul is talking about here. And furthermore- tongues had an evangelistic purpose; there's not a scriptural or logical link between tongues and the writing of scripture. They didn't "tongues in part".

IF only we had WAY MORE of this Greatest Gift, instead of "biting
and Devouring one another" over Disagreeing doctrines, eh?

You did it again- ripped out of context... LOOK AT WHAT PAUL WROTE RIGHT BEFORE THIS...
11Now, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those who are agitating you, I wish they would proceed to emasculate themselves!

I have NEVER said anything this NASTY about anyone... okay, maybe I did a long time ago... But it's been a very long time since i've said something like this about someone- and I haven't said anything like this on CC, so what is Paul talking about anyway? Because right there, he had a very big disagreement about doctrine.
For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”a 15But if you keep on biting and devouring one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.

I totally get that people have bad experiences, because I've had them too- but have you ever just asked the lord about this?

 

[VARob]

Simply believe The Scriptures (That 'Which Is Perfect'), Which Have
Been COMPLETED, * and "that which WAS in Part" (the gifts of prophecy,
knowledge, and tongues) have now "failed, vanished away, and CEASED."
(1Co 13:8-10), studying God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided?

While the scriptures are God's words, they are not the subject of 1 Cor 13:10.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

While the scriptures are God's words, they are not the subject of 1 Cor 13:10.

1) IF The Scriptures are not Perfect, then why would God Do This?:

​

Psa 138:2 “I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise​

Thy Name for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for​

Thou Hast MAGNIFIED Thy Word Above All THY NAME.”​

​

2) Plus, IF The Scriptures are not PERFECT, then They
Cannot be trusted, Correct?

3) God's Truth is not in (my or anyone else's) experience, But In:

Christ, And In His Completed Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!:

a portion of ' II' by D Adams:

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

 

[Edify]

I'll never understand why some people say these things aren't for them, when ALL the teachings of the NT aren't simply for the early church, but for the entire Church Age. If this weren't so God would be a respecter of persons within His own church.
Let God be true, & every man a liar.