Being born of water and Spirit

[peldom10]

I'm not directing any criticism towards the OP and other respondents here, but I personally wish we would stop mystifying water and spiritual baptisms and creating unnecessary complexities and confusion.

Water baptism is a symbolic repeat of the event of the waters closing over and freeing Israel from the pursuing Egyptians, which to us is a metaphor for our being freed from the sinful behaviours that shackled us to our past.

We have crossed over the sea like natural Israel, and are now in the desert being guided by the cloud and fire, which is a metaphor to us for the Holy Spirit's guidance that He now gives every individual that He indwells.

Our faith and trust in Jesus and adherence to His teachings is the food/manna/bread that will sustain us and keep us spiritually alive in our desert walk which is our born again life here on earth.

I just don't get why we have to complicate things so much. Are we really, humbly seeking for truth, or is it just that our egos want to prove to others how spiritually insightful and knowledgeable we are? Are we really trying to prove Jesus as worthy, or just wanting to prove our intellectual or spiritual superiority over our peers? I'm not saying the OP or other respondent posts are meaning to do that, but the whole issue of water and spiritual baptisms, also raised in other forums, seems to be a thorn in many people's sides, and I just wonder why that is.

I realise we may need to divide the word over and over to tease out the real truth which can sometimes appear hidden. However, even a cow can only regurgitate what it has consumed as often as that has value to it, then it is given over to waste.

We need to be careful we don't make the Lord's word appear as waste!

Shalom 🙂

There is no mystery about God's word. Man makes His word a mystery in attempts to change His word...as we see about baptism.
God's word is not complicated..there are only three things we need from scriptures to receive eternal salvation;

1) Repentance
2) Baptism
3) Righteous life

What is complex about that?

...and be aware there are new age religion types out there that are now trying to get folks to accept John 3;16 as a only need...not repentance. Can you believe that? Anything to distort the intent and meaning of God's word.

Baptism is Required

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

.......If you were baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then you do not have salvation and you are still lost. Who are you going to follow: God or man? As our Lord warns us in Matthew 15:14, "And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Don't allow someone, who has added to and taken away from God's word, to lead you. Open your eyes and read God's word for yourself. Those who have added to and taken away from God's word will be lost. If you continue to follow them, then you too will be lost.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

 

[mailmandan]

..If you were baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then you do not have salvation and you are still lost..

You just condemned a lot of Christians on this forum. You seem to have more faith in water baptism to save you than you do in Christ to save you, which exposes your unbelief. Where did you receive your indoctrination from/where do you attend church?

 

[peldom10]

You just condemned a lot of Christians on this forum. You seem to have more faith in water baptism to save you than you do in Christ to save you, which exposes your unbelief. Where did you receive your indoctrination from/where do you attend church?

That is not my post.

Please correct your quote.

 

[mailmandan]

There is no mystery about God's word. Man makes His word a mystery in attempts to change His word...as we see about baptism.
God's word is not complicated..there are only three things we need from scriptures to receive eternal salvation;

1) Repentance
2) Baptism
3) Righteous life

What is complex about that?

...and be aware there are new age religion types out there that are now trying to get folks to accept John 3;16 as a only need...not repentance. Can you believe that? Anything to distort the intent and meaning of God's word.

Baptism is Required

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

.......If you were baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then you do not have salvation and you are still lost. Who are you going to follow: God or man? As our Lord warns us in Matthew 15:14, "And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Don't allow someone, who has added to and taken away from God's word, to lead you. Open your eyes and read God's word for yourself. Those who have added to and taken away from God's word will be lost. If you continue to follow them, then you too will be lost.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

Then whose post is it? Here it is again. Post #141

 

[peldom10]

Then whose post is it? Here it is again. Post #141

You presented it wrong.

It should have been quoted.......xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.....

Then I would have noted that it was a part of a post. Including the post # is normal also.

 

[mailmandan]

You presented it wrong.

It should have been quoted.......xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.....

Then I would have noted that it was a part of a post. Including the post # is normal also.

So do you believe that if someone is baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then they have no salvation and are still lost?

 

[Runningman]

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). In that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, "flesh" birth (accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would point out that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and connects it with everlasting life and also in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who point out that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

*So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.*

I like the way you expound upon the scripture here, but the living water is drank per John 4:14 and the water that one is born of water and Spirit is not drank per John 3:5, but is rather the vehicle through which one is born again where the first birth through amniotic fluid is not being born a second time.

The birth of water and Spirit is more likely to do with water baptism where one is symbolically buried and rises again per Romans 6:4,5. Just my two cents, but I am quite certain of this for whatever that's worth. I guess people are going to interpret it how they see fit. I hope that what I said at least adds some thought-provoking points for serious consideration as to what the water and Spirit actually is.

 

[mailmandan]

So do you believe that if someone is baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then they have no salvation and are still lost?

Are you dodging my question?

 

[mailmandan]

I like the way you expound upon the scripture here, but the living water is drank per John 4:14 and the water that one is born of water and Spirit is not drank per John 3:5, but is rather the vehicle through which one is born again where the first birth through amniotic fluid is not being born a second time.

The birth of water and Spirit is more likely to do with water baptism where one is symbolically buried and rises again per Romans 6:4,5. Just my two cents, but I am quite certain of this for whatever that's worth. I guess people are going to interpret it how they see fit. I hope that what I said at least adds some thought-provoking points for serious consideration as to what the water and Spirit actually is.

Does plain ordinary H20 flow through our heart and cleanse our heart from sin or does living water? (John 7:37-39?) Which makes more sense? Do we drink plain ordinary H20 or living water? (John 4:10,14) Which is the fountain of water that springs up into everlasting life? Which water do we drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13) By water baptism or Spirit baptism?

 

[ResidentAlien]

Why else would a person be baptized other than for the forgiveness of sins?

"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' "

Let's think about this. If all that's necessary is to repent and believe, what use is there of baptism? As a way of illustrating my point, think of it as taking a bath and getting nice and clean, then gathering a crowd of people to witness myself getting dunked in the tub to demonstrate my cleanness. It's absurd.

 

[Mem]

I've received a renewed appreciation for open and uncensored discussions having just heard a comment from Jordan Peterson comment concerning the US cultural doctrine of freedom of speech that went something like, "...among all the chatter that contains mostly useless babble, a moment of illumination bursts forth (paraphrased)..."

I approach this question from the standpoint of the natural example of the birthing process, and with supporting scripture of course. That is, we are born of a woman and a man, naturally. And, coupling that with the scriptural revelation that there are three that bear witness in the earth and also three that bear witness in heaven, I arrive that this is speaking to the receiving of the gospel, hearing (and reading, btw, is considered more a hearing than 'sighting', i.e., receiving physically) and believing (conceiving and carrying spiritually) His Word is True and Faithful.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

Then I'm doomed.

 

[Runningman]

Does plain ordinary H20 flow through our heart and cleanse our heart from sin or does living water? (John 7:37-39?) Which makes more sense?

It's the blood of Jesus that purifies us from sin, not the living water. (1 John 1:7) According to John 7:37-39, the living water is the Holy Spirit, not the forgiveness of sins. The rivers of living water flowing through the heart, which I believe I have experienced often, are a physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God.

Do we drink plain ordinary H20 or living water? (John 4:10,14) Which is the fountain of water that springs up into everlasting life? Which water do we drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13) By water baptism or Spirit baptism?

Jesus said if you ask for the living water (the living water is the Holy Spirit per John 7:37-39) you would get the living water. In Luke 11:13, Jesus said if you ask for the Holy Spirit then God will give the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 is about Spirit baptism into the Spiritual body of Christ, which is the church, and that is required as well.

John 3:5 makes it clear one must be born of both water and Spirit. If the water in John 3:5 is the (living water) Spirit then the passage would read like "One must be born of Spirit and Spirit." which isn't what Jesus seems to have meant. Therefore the water and Spirit are most likely water baptism and Spirit baptism.

Thanks for the great post you really helped me sharpen my iron and hone this doctrine. Any other talking points for me to consider?

 

[Melach]

Great so being born of water is absolutely not live birth. You, the word of God, and myself are in total agreement on that point. Thanks for sharing that passage.

yes its not live birth. anyone who says that is just trying to wiggle their way out of water baptism.

 

[peldom10]

So do you believe that if someone is baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then they have no salvation and are still lost?

Few would doubt Billy Graham's knowledge of the Bible.

 

[peldom10]

.........I attended His crusade teachings in Ashville .....back in the 80-'s......He was pointing toward true conviction in the heart by actions....was His message. ....vs...someone doing it for political or other purposes.
Same with repentance.

Yes...agree.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I totally hear you there. Like Hebrews 11, they were commended for their faith and each person did something acting in faith. I think you have a pretty good explanation of that.

usually when anything valuable comes from us it’s because we’re interacting with each other spiritual bouncing things off each other I usually always get some good thinking reading your posts so just try to respond in kind brother appreciate the good spirit and conversation

 

[mailmandan]

Few would doubt Billy Graham's knowledge of the Bible.

Was that a YES or NO answer?

 

[Blain]

@Runningman seeing as how there was already a thread on this that caused a lot of problems and now we have this thread I want to confront you on this matter. Instead of going on a long heated debate as to why wtaer baptism and spirit baptism are both required for the ressurection i ask you for actual evidence to show that claim no loop holes no verses to imply it or make it seem that way no well worded case for it actual evidence that this istrue so wre can put a stop to this.
Because this is a worn out debate one that doesn't need to be revived, you made your case in your other thread and yet were unable to definitively prove it because it seems you were unable to change anyones mind and it seems no one was able to change yours. Now i am not like most i am willing to admit i could be wrong i am able to learn and do not hold my beleiefs sop strongly that i am blind to truth when it is presented to me so if you are able to show actual evidence i might be able to be persuaded but i need actual evidence actual biblical proof that this is true not w wordy lengthy post as to why it is true or loop holes or verses used to imply it i need straight up actual evidence which if you stand on truth you either should be able to provide it or should be able to show it in scripture without using implaction or twisting it to say something it doesn't

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman seeing as how there was already a thread on this that caused a lot of problems and now we have this thread I want to confront you on this matter. Instead of going on a long heated debate as to why wtaer baptism and spirit baptism are both required for the ressurection i ask you for actual evidence to show that claim no loop holes no verses to imply it or make it seem that way no well worded case for it actual evidence that this istrue so wre can put a stop to this.
Because this is a worn out debate one that doesn't need to be revived, you made your case in your other thread and yet were unable to definitively prove it because it seems you were unable to change anyones mind and it seems no one was able to change yours. Now i am not like most i am willing to admit i could be wrong i am able to learn and do not hold my beleiefs sop strongly that i am blind to truth when it is presented to me so if you are able to show actual evidence i might be able to be persuaded but i need actual evidence actual biblical proof that this is true not w wordy lengthy post as to why it is true or loop holes or verses used to imply it i need straight up actual evidence which if you stand on truth you either should be able to provide it or should be able to show it in scripture without using implaction or twisting it to say something it doesn't

Romans 6:1-7
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.