THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

[John146]

Can you show that the provisions in Timothy for that church is universal and not local to the church under Timothy?

We can learn a lot from their mistakes.

Do a quick search on the church of Ephesus, the scriptures related to Ephesus, the letter to the Ephesians and Artemis temple.

1 Corinthians 4
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

1 Timothy 3:12 - “ Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.”

The underlying Greek word in question is διακονον - diakonos. But it has several meanings. In the KJV it is translated as DEACON only twice and these are in 1 Timothy 3:8 and 12 where it refers to one of the offices in the local church. We have elders and deacons. But both were men who were to be married to godly wives.

The main meaning of the word is minister, meaning a servant, and the word SERVANT itself. It is used in such places as John 2:5 and 2:9 where Jesus turned the water into wine.

“His mother saith unto the SERVANTS, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.” John 2:5

“When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the SERVANTS which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom” John 2:9

The verb form of this word is diakoneo and it also means TO SERVE or to MINISTER - as in Hebrews 6:10 - “ For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that YE HAVE MINISTERED to the saints, and DO MINISTER.”

The new versions translate the word diakonos as servant or servants some 20 times, minister 4 times, attendants once, and deacon 3 times.

Most Bibles throughout history have translated Romans 16:1 as “Phebe our sister, which is a SERVANT of the church which is at Cenchrea”. - or “minister” meaning a servant.

The NASB, ESV, NKJV, Holman Standard and NET versions all have “our sister Phoebe, A SERVANT of the church”

But there is a growing movement in these modern times to promote women to the place of leadership in the church by making them either Pastors or Deacons, especially in the more liberal churches - contrary to what the Bible teaches.

Kjv or Niv doesn't matter. What matters is the Greek word and which translation fits it the closest within context. And deacon is the closest word as it also fits the context.

I know of the growing movement to take gender out of the Bible but we are talking about Greek here not modern English.

 

[John146]

Kjv or Niv doesn't matter. What matters is the Greek word and which translation fits it the closest within context. And deacon is the closest word as it also fits the context.

I know of the growing movement to take gender out of the Bible but we are talking about Greek here not modern English.

God's word is not up for opinion. If you make Phoebe a deacon, then you allow for gay marriage. Period.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

1 Corinthians 4
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
New International Version

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[proverbs35]

good question. From what we see in chapter 4_5 of Judges he is elevated to the position by his actions and the calling from the word of the Lord
jud 4:6
And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

it appears God called Barak.

A prophetess named Deborah, the wife of Lappidoth, was ·judging [leading; 2:16] Israel at that time. Jud 4:4 EXB

Before Kings governed (ruled) Israel, Israel was governed (ruled) by judges. Judges were a type of ruler/government official. The HEBREW word SHAPHAT (Strong's 8199) that gets translated into English as "judge" means to rule and govern.

www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H8199/shaphat.htm

Verses that speak to Deborah's authority over the men and women in Israel:

- Deborah held court and settled disputes among the Israelites. Jud 4:5 NIV

The Bible does not state that Barak held court and settled disputes among the Israelites.

- Deborah summoned, sent for and called Barak. Jud 4:6

The Bible does not state that Barak summoned, sent for and called Deborah.

-Deborah gave Barak instructions from God. Jud 4:6

The Bible does not state that Barak gave Deborah instructions from God.

-Barak insisted that Deborah go with him on the mission to Kedesh because he was reluctant to go without Deborah the prophet and judge. Jud 4:8-9. Deborah and Barak went together, which indicates shared responsibility.

As a result of Barak's reluctantance, Barak did not receive the honor and glory. God delivered Israel's enemy into the hands of a woman: Jael. Jud 4:9

-Deborah gave Barak instruction from God again. Jud 4:14

The Bible does not state that Barak gave Deborah instruction from God.

-Deborah arose as a mother (parental figure) in Israel. Jud 5:7

The Bible does not say that Barak arose as a father, prophet, judge, ruler or governor in Israel.

@CS1 said that Barak was the leader of Israel before kings.

Barak was the reluctant Commander-in-Chief of the army. Barak led men in battle to Mt. Tabor and beyond, so that God would deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman: Jael. Jud 4:14

We have no verse telling us that Barak lead the men and women in Israel WHO WERE NOT in the army. We have no verse telling us that Barak governed the men and women in Israel concerning non-military matters.

Barak was the reluctant military leader: Commander-in-Chief.

Deborah was a parental, spiritual, civic and civil leader in Israel.

Deborah and Barak were both leaders in Israel. They each presided over different aspects of government.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

God's word is not up for opinion. If you make Phoebe a deacon, then you allow for gay marriage. Period.

A command was given to men in that position to have a certain wife. Does that automatically apply to women as well if no command is given?

 

[proverbs35]

When did Greek become a new version?

That's the same thing I was thinking. Wow!

 

[John146]

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

 

[Nehemiah6]

lest any MAN be contentious, the Churches of God HAVE NO SUCH CUSTOMS....

What did Paul mean by this? After a lengthy dissertation on the necessity of the Christian woman's head covering (16 verses) what Paul was saying is that if any person would be contentious about the requirement for a head covering, then let him know that there is no such custom of UNCOVERING the head during worship. And this applied to all the churches of that time.

Paul gave several biblical reasons for the head covering (or veil) in order to establish this as a Christian custom. Indeed a biblical requirement, not a man-made idea. Since then millions of Christian women have covered their heads, and many still do. Christian men were told to uncover their heads, but Jewish men still cover their heads.

 

[Mem]

Some men think they are righteous rulers

It should always been done in private with love and care in less of course to not correct could leadd to harm.

A lot of men imagine that they rule righteously over their wife. A few rule righteously, with their wife.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

What did Paul mean by this? After a lengthy dissertation on the necessity of the Christian woman's head covering (16 verses) what Paul was saying is that if any person would be contentious about the requirement for a head covering, then let him know that there is no such custom of UNCOVERING the head during worship. And this applied to all the churches of that time.

Paul gave several biblical reasons for the head covering (or veil) in order to establish this as a Christian custom. Indeed a biblical requirement, not a man-made idea. Since then millions of Christian women have covered their heads, and many still do. Christian men were told to uncover their heads, but Jewish men still cover their heads.

"IF anyone wants to be contentious"

Stop being contentious then and stop trying to micro-manage & control everyone.

 

[AworkINprogress]

Agreed. What greaves me is the thought of women of God having to read through a piece like that.



P_Rehbein, I'm gonna let you in on some things about your "commandments" here. They are not what you think they are. In every single passage where such things are discussed, it is not discussing men and women but husbands and wives. The translators do a very poor job of communicating this to the modern reader, and confuse people, because they don't translate the original properly in the passages in question.

The Greek words for "men" and "women" can be and are just as often translated "husbands" and "wives" in the NT. As a result, you must look to the context to know which is the correct rendering.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Look very closely at verse 35. This passage is not about women, it is about wives. The proper translation should be:

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your wives keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for wives to speak in the church.

Notice how he says, "but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." What law? He is referring to Genesis 3:16, which applies specifically to wives, not women. When you ask for someone to show you where the law states no woman can teach a man, you get dead silence.

Watch again:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Again this in not a passage about women. It is a passage about wives. Proper translation should be:

3 The aged (widowed or married) women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young wives to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

That what word of God not be blasphemed? Again, Genesis 3:16. Watch again:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the wife learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a wife to teach, nor to usurp authority over her husband, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but his wife being deceived was in the transgression.

He was not talking here about women. He was talking about wives, and using the first husband and wife as his example, now relating the entire story in Genesis to his argument.

Why were wives not allowed to teach their husbands? Because when a man and woman enter into a marriage agreement, they agree to become a reflection of marriage between Christ and His bride the church, and the bride does not teach Christ anything. A husband must assume the responsibility to become her teacher in the word as a reflection of Christ to His bride ("husbands love your wives, cleansing them with the washing of the water in the word"), and she must assume the responsibility to hear and obey the word of God coming through him as the bride to Christ ("wives obey your husbands"), which means a man assumes a great responsibility spiritually when he marries. He will be held accountable to God for teaching and leading her accurately. Unmarried women of God do NOT have any of these restrictions on them, which means teaching that all "women" should be in subjection to men is not only a misrepresentation of the actual New Testament teaching, but a rather sexist one at that. The church needs to come out of her outdated mistranslations and misinterpretations of the word of God on this issue. It is an embarrassment to the Spirit of God and His people.

I was going to write the same thing but you beat me to it. This is rightly dividing the word of truth. Now I can drink my tea before it gets cold.

 

[Vindicator]

I was going to write the same thing but you beat me to it. This is rightly dividing the word of truth. Now I can drink my tea before it gets cold.

Yeah, as it turns out, I misread the OP's intentions. But it didn't hurt to discuss the word of God anyway.

 

[AworkINprogress]

Just noticing your post. I can address the rest, but let me ask you this first: Do you really believe it is God's will for Christ to rule over the body of Christ? It has bearing, so I'm curious what your answer would be here, and thanks for the maturity in your post.

Nah. It's a weak argument IMO. Paul uses the expression "the law" over one hundred times in his epistles, but never in reference to secular Roman Law. For Paul, νόμος equalled the Jewish law of the Old Testament in general, which included the Ten Commandments (Romans 13:8, 2:20, 7:7), and then more specifically of the law of Moses (Romans 7:4, Galatians 4:4).


This would be interesting if you could provide a specific quote identifying something as a written law applicable to the Jews at the time of Christ. Where are you getting this from exactly?

Unfortunately, so much feminism has entered the Church (and when I say the Church, I mean those who are born again by the Spirit of God. We have all kinds of Churches. We even have pro gay churches, and they are certainly not the body of Christ).

The archaic wording of “Rule over“ or the “being the head” is daunting to women’s minds due to liberties that men have with women by beating them up, rape, incest, etc.. It’s difficult to see a man as the head of the house to rule over his wife and children when he is a bast*rd.

For our modern lingo, it’s better to say, Men love your wives as Christ loves his body. And wives, due honour to your husband the best way you can even in the face of great difficulty. Women picture “ruling” as if ruling with an iron fist

I was teasing some of the women in our staff pool and I said, “I will do ANYTHING for my wife if she will obey me”.

LOLOLOLOL, oh the reactions, they priceless, it was fun to hear all the hens cackling at this young rooster and the eye brows go up. Hehehe

They said, “What do you mean obey?”. My reply was, “yes, but I said, I would do ANYTHING for my wife. They still weren’t getting it, they were caught up in the word obey, they didn’t see that my ”anything” meant obey too. Hehe

Yet, I’ve seen these same women talk among themselves about their husbands, but as soon as the guy comes through the door, “oh, hubby is home, I gotta go and feed him”. LOL

Oh, I loved growing up in the country.

 

[Laura798]

I find it so curious that there wasn't all this parliamentarianism (for lack of a better word)--men are this, women are that--I see a lot of 'adding to' on either side of the debate-that is to say the church universal.

Do I believe the word still stands-a man role is to love His wife as Christ loved the church and gave His life for it and is a woman to submit? Yes. But I liken it to president and vice-president and not parent and child. I've heard it said that when each is in harmony in their role--this role becomes combined.

And the church as it stands now seems to be man (mankind okay?) rather than Christ Centered. 'jesus' -- as He is so often called in our churches, instead of Lord, Lord Jesus Christ, Christ. It's like calling Queen Elizabeth simply 'elizabeth'. In any case Jesus is still in the manger--a kind of a mascot; even though our modern churches say 'Grace grace, grace' it's all about grace'--they are so often weak, empty, devoid of the Spirit. Again, the church has swung too far in either direction. I really care nothing for the business like model of the church--at all.

There was NO SUCH thing as a Lead Pastor or a Senior Pastor--elders were men who were also teachers. deacons were both men and women. Many women have been missionaries as the apostles were---think Amy Carmichael and Elisabeth Elliot. I personally would like to see the house church model grow--everyone is involved and whomever is decided upon can facilitate--I imagine Lydia did in her own home; and as these area churches grow, then appoint elders, yes according to scripture who are men. This has zero to do with equality. We see in the early church in Acts they gathered together in assembly in synagogues on the Sabbath and also met daily. I believe this is what Paul is referring to regarding the 'custom', custom being the operative word.

I feel the chapter and verses are useful to find things, but have also done harm to the church, because it is thru the isolation of scripture that false doctrine comes from.

My personal feeling is Christ saw and understood the plight of women and wanted to elevate them. His first miracle was turning water into wine at the request of his mother; the first person he told directly He was the Messiah was the Samaritan woman; the first person to witness and tell the good news of His resurrection was a woman.

We see women in scripture as 'savior' types--think Abigail, Esther, Rahab, Jael; barren women--out of death came life, think Sarah, Rebekah, Rachel, and Hannah--see all of the women who are listed in the genealogy of Jesus.

Look at the Proverbs woman, "She speaks with wisdom,and faithful instruction is on her tongue."
She cared for her household, directed her servants, cared for the poor, she was a seller of linen, with her earnings she bought a field--and this more than 4000 years ago! And what words did her husband say of her? "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.”

 

[Dino246]

Ditch the perversion...

Ditch the stupidity.

1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

The Greek word is "diakonos", which is rendered "deacon" in several places. However, in this one place where it is used in reference to a woman, it is translated "servant". Bias much? Absolutely! The NIV and other modern translations have it correct, while the KJV has it translated incorrectly.

By the way, Strong's says that this word means, specifically, a Christian teacher and pastor.

 

[Dino246]

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Your unwillingness to consider the Greek undermines your position. Where there are actually pronouns in Greek in this passage, they are not gender-specific.

 

[Dino246]

What did Paul mean by this? After a lengthy dissertation on the necessity of the Christian woman's head covering (16 verses) what Paul was saying is that if any person would be contentious about the requirement for a head covering, then let him know that there is no such custom of UNCOVERING the head during worship. And this applied to all the churches of that time.

Paul gave several biblical reasons for the head covering (or veil) in order to establish this as a Christian custom. Indeed a biblical requirement, not a man-made idea. Since then millions of Christian women have covered their heads, and many still do. Christian men were told to uncover their heads, but Jewish men still cover their heads.

You really need to do more homework on this subject. I'd recommend that you read chapter 8 of Michael Heiser's Reversing Hermon.

 

[RolloTamasi]

You really need to do more homework on this subject. I'd recommend that you read chapter 8 of Michael Heiser's Reversing Hermon.

Reversing hermon relies heavily on the book of enoch, thus, it is extra biblical, hardly a book for sound teaching.

Enoch, the watchers, and the forgotten mission of Jesus Christ.
That's very scary teaching for a born again Christian.
Are you?
Also, what church teaches you this stuff?

 

[John146]

Ditch the stupidity.


The Greek word is "diakonos", which is rendered "deacon" in several places. However, in this one place where it is used in reference to a woman, it is translated "servant". Bias much? Absolutely! The NIV and other modern translations have it correct, while the KJV has it translated incorrectly.

By the way, Strong's says that this word means, specifically, a Christian teacher and pastor.

You should have read my earlier post. Here it is again for you.

1 Timothy 3:12 - “ Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.”

The underlying Greek word in question is διακονον - diakonos. But it has several meanings. In the KJV it is translated as DEACON only twice and these are in 1 Timothy 3:8 and 12 where it refers to one of the offices in the local church. We have elders and deacons. But both were men who were to be married to godly wives.

The main meaning of the word is minister, meaning a servant, and the word SERVANT itself. It is used in such places as John 2:5 and 2:9 where Jesus turned the water into wine.

“His mother saith unto the SERVANTS, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.” John 2:5

“When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the SERVANTS which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom” John 2:9

The verb form of this word is diakoneo and it also means TO SERVE or to MINISTER - as in Hebrews 6:10 - “ For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that YE HAVE MINISTERED to the saints, and DO MINISTER.”

Even the new versions translate the word diakonos as servant or servants some 20 times, minister 4 times, attendants once, and deacon 3 times.

Most Bibles throughout history have translated Romans 16:1 as “Phebe our sister, which is a SERVANT of the church which is at Cenchrea”. - or “minister” meaning a servant.

The NASB, ESV, NKJV, Holman Standard and NET versions all have “our sister Phoebe, A SERVANT of the church”

But there is a growing movement in these modern times to promote women to the place of leadership in the church by making them either Pastors or Deacons, especially in the more liberal churches - contrary to what the Bible teaches.