THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

[John146]

another non sequitur

you are good at those

thank you, I like pointing people to what scripture actually says, void of feelings. There are many things in God's word that I don't like personally, but it's God's word and takes precedent over what I feel.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

the female

better than the male's lot I suspect

10x better amen!

 

[John146]

Luke 24

Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Let me ask a question, if these verses brought a crowd of people both men and women to faith by simply hearing the Words of God.

How would you feel if a women spoke the words?

Again, women can and should preach the gospel, even to men. The question is whether they should be teaching the word of God to men in the local assembly.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The topic is the alleged justification of muzzling the female... isn't it?

Well only when in front of men. I was in a elevator this pass summer with a elderly couple. They looked so sweet until the man opened his mouth. The women was so sweet, soft spoken and caring to the man but as soon as she had a thought against his, he publicly starting to so3ak loudly and basically made her out to be as she didn't know what she was talking about. It was sad but I got this feeling she was taught to to live that way under a man and she humbly just submitted. It was all she knew.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Again, women can and should preach the gospel, even to men. The question is whether they should be teaching the word of God to men in the local assembly.

Can you define teaching and can you define assembly? Scripture says where 2 or 3 are gathered. Assembly in Acts was often someone's home or even a water well.

Preaching the gospel is teaching the gospel.

 

[Mem]

Well only when in front of men. I was in a elevator this pass summer with a elderly couple. They looked so sweet until the man opened his mouth. The women was so sweet, soft spoken and caring to the man but as soon as she had a thought against his, he publicly starting to so3ak loudly and basically made her out to be as she didn't know what she was talking about. It was sad but I got this feeling she was taught to to live that way under a man and she humbly just submitted. It was all she knew.

I happen to be among the minority shich believe the reference often used is, in reality, addressing public ridicule of the husband by the wife... and see it as having been, wrongly, utilized as a, idk what's the word, commission even? to do so at every chance to the female and any female, regardless of her marital relationship to any certain male. That a husband would think it is perfectly acceptable to correct his wife in public while it is shameful that she should do so would fall into my definition of unevenly yoked.

 

[studentoftheword]

The purpose of this Article is to discuss the situation that millions of women in the Church find themselves. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. For the purpose of this Article, I am taking the position that their teachings are true and Biblical (my personal thoughts not withstanding).

My view
I say---- that these women find themselves in this situation because of the Misunderstanding of what the scriptures are actually saying ----Many males and females take one piece of scripture and try to make a doctrine out of it -----that is the Problem and it is very dangerous to do so and leads to a false understanding of what the scripture is actually saying ------you need to understand the Chapters before the piece of scripture one takes out of context and then you need to understand the time it was written in and who the scripture is directed to ------

Women and men seem to think that God prefers men over women for leadership purposes because of what is written in this piece of Scripture -----which is taken out of Context and is assumed that women are to be lesser than the man in the Church setting ----
-
! Timothy 2:11-12 ----
11 Women should learn in silence and all humility. 12I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet.


I say -------So in 1 Timothy 1 we read this ----So Paul is writing a Letter to Timothy to oppose the False Teachers in the Church of Ephesus

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

2 To Timothy my true son in the faith:


Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.

5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk.

7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.


I say ------! Timothy 2 is a continuation of 1 Tim 1 ----so we are still talking about Paul's letter to Timothy correcting the False Doctrine that is being taught in the Church of Ephesus ----Paul giving him the right instructions as to how the Worship should be carried out ------

The women in that time were not as educated in Spiritual Matters as the men were ---and so Paul is telling Timothy that because the women are listening to this False Doctrine they may go out to other Church Houses and be spreading False Doctrine and Paul did not want that to happen ----so He his telling Timothy to make sure the women stay silent and don't allow them to speak or preach what they hear ----and tell them to get fed the word by their husbands at home so they get the right Doctrine ----

This and other scriptures about women in the Church need to be looked at by and through the direction of the Holy spirit who will give one the right insight and direction as to the right understanding of the scripture -----and reading the whole Context of what the scripture is about ------

Here ----- Paul refers back to Adam and Eve in his letter ----in ! Timothy 2

13*For Adam was created first, and then Eve. 14*And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and broke God’s law.

I say -----So here Paul is saying that the woman may easily be led into being deceived by the hearing of this False Doctrine and this is a concern so keep the women quiet who attend this Church of Ephesus ----

So this is for that Church only ------it is not saying that all women cannot teach and all have to be silent in Church ----this is speaking of the Church in Ephesus

I say ---- Here is something to keep in Mind about Women today thinking that they are lesser than the Man and the Women always trying to compete to be as good and as important and equal as the Man ---

This stems from Eve's curse that was put on her by God for disobeying His Command in the Garden -----

Genesis 3 --God curses Eve for her disobedience

16To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

I say ---So we see that the woman will be ruled over by the Man ---

This curse is still in effect Today for women who are unbelievers ----so all the striving for the woman to be equally as important as the man will continue until Jesus comes back and fixes things for good ----there is only one way to remove this Curse from us personally now --and that is to repent ---have a change of Mind and receive Jesus in our hearts which bring the Blessing back into our lives -----women will not longer be in that bondage of striving to be equal to the man as she will understand she was already equal to the man from the beginning --

I say -----the veil of unbelief covers the truth and the ignorance of scripture makes it hard for Females to grasp where they fit in society today ----my view

Eve was made equal to Adam in the beginning Folks ------God said to the Adam I will give you a helper -

The Hebrew word for helper is Ezer ----Got this from a sight called Theology of Work ---good explanation I think --

Theology of Work

While many devout Christians see a woman's function as a subordinate to a man, the word ezer in the original Hebrew overturns that idea.

The woman was not created to serve the man, but to serve with the man. Without the woman, the man was only half the story. She was not an afterthought or an optional adjunct to an independent, self-sufficient man.

God said in Genesis 2:18 that without her, the man's condition was "not good." God's intention in creating the woman for the man was for the two to be partners in the many tasks involved in stewarding God's creation.

https://www.theologyofwork.org/key-...d-woman-as-an-ezer-kind-of-helper-genesis-218


I say ---That anyone male or female who has the Holy Spirit indwelling in them is a Preacher --Teacher --and can be a leader in the Church ------as you have God in you -----there is no gender involved as far as God is concerned -----We Humans are the ones reading into Scripture the Gender issue ------

Galatians 3:28
New International Version

28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[John146]

Can you define teaching and can you define assembly? Scripture says where 2 or 3 are gathered. Assembly in Acts was often someone's home or even a water well.

Preaching the gospel is teaching the gospel.

Where 2 or 3 are gathered what? That's not defining the local church. Paul wrote to the churches, the local body of Christ in particular regions. Yes, someone's home can be a local assembly if believers meet there to be taught the word of God.

I'm not sure where the argument against what scripture clearly teaches about the role of men and women? Why such a push back? No one is trying to degrade, persecute, or hold back women. That's such a ridiculous mind set of the feminist movement.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Where 2 or 3 are gathered what? That's not defining the local church. Paul wrote to the churches, the local body of Christ in particular regions. Yes, someone's home can be a local assembly if believers meet there to be taught the word of God.

I'm not sure where the argument against what scripture clearly teaches about the role of men and women? Why such a push back? No one is trying to degrade, persecute, or hold back women. That's such a ridiculous mind set of the feminist movement.

1. No one trying to degrade as long as women do not teach men the Word of God?
2. Or can they teach a man on the side behind the scenes but when in an assembly of men she has now crossed the line?
3. Or it is only if we put a title on assembly and call it church then teaching men is wrong?

 

[lamad]

THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

For several weeks now, I have been thinking of the situation of the women in the Church. It has been heavy on my heart, and I have given much thought as to how best present it here on Christian Chat.

I am not arguing any particular Church Group/Denominational Teaching as being right or wrong. That is not the purpose of this Article.

The purpose of this Article is to discuss the situation that millions of women in the Church find themselves. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. For the purpose of this Article, I am taking the position that their teachings are true and Biblical (my personal thoughts not withstanding).

The most taught writing of the Apostle Paul is found in 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The Churches do not allow women to be Pastors, or hold Offices that give them authority over the men of the Congregation based on this writing. And, as far as I know, the millions of women who attend the Churches that teach this, are not rising up in protest. I can not say how they feel in their hearts, or what they think in their minds, but I am not aware of any great movement by the women to protest this teaching of their Church.

The Church Leaders hold that the Apostle Paul was speaking for God, and, thus, this teaching is a Commandment from God. And as such, must be obeyed. I fully agree that the Commandments from God must be obeyed, for Jesus Himself taught this on numerous occasions. One such is found in the 14th Chapter of John: 15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.


The problem is, this is not the only teaching concerning women that the Apostle Paul wrote. 1 Timothy contains other teachings:

9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10) But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
The Apostle Paul also stated how a woman would receive salvation:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

There are othere Epistles where the Apostle spoke of women. The most notable being 1 Corinthians, Chapter 14:
34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

As well, in Titus, Chapter 2 we find:
3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

These are the most know teachings concerning women from the Apostle Paul. Given that it is accepted that the Apostle Paul spoke for God in all he wrote, then all of these teachings must be considered Commandments from God.

And THIS is the situation that millions of women find themselves in!

To be clear, we can show the actual results of the Apostle Paul's teachings:

Women are to keep silence in Church. This means that women are NOT to speak/pray or sing out loud while in the Church Building.

Women are ONLY authorized to teach the young women/girls. However, this teaching can not occur within the Church Building, meaning in a Sunday School Room/Class. For women are forbidden to speak within the Church Building. So, I can only believe that they are to teach the young women at home.

Women are NOT allowed to attend Sunday School Classes, nor are they allowed to own or even read the Holy Bible. The Apostle Paul said "if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home." I can only believe that IF women have a question concerning the Gospel, they are to ask their husbands "at home," and it is the husbands duty to teach his wife the Gospel. In this way, what the women learn from their husbands, they can teach to the young women/girls.

Women are NOT to cut or color or style their hair. Nor are they to wear jewelry or make up. They are to dress in "modest" clothing. The Apostle said:
"9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Now, the situation women are faced with is that these writings of the Apostle Paul must be considered Commandments from God, since their Church Leaders have established that all that the Apostle Paul spoke/wrote WERE Commandments from God.

Given this, and given that Jesus Himself commanded that we obey Him, the millions of women who are not obedient to ALL of the Apostles writings find themselves living "daily" in disobedience to the Commandments of God!

I do not know if these women even consider this reality, or, if they do, how they justify not obeying ALL the writings of the Apostle Paul?

I have GRAVE FEAR for these women. My heart hurts for them, and I pray for them. I also do not believe their Church Leaders even recognize the situation THEY have placed their women in! How do the Church Leaders justify enforcing only one of the Apostles writings while ignoring all the rest? Do they realize that they are committing their women to live lives in disobedience to God?

I pray that somehow, some way, the Church Leaders that teach concerning women, and the women themselves begin to find a way to rectify this habitual life of disobedience. I have GRAVE FEAR for these women!

Even though the Apostle said they would be "saved in childbearing," he also stated:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
To receive their salvation in "childbearing," them MUST live in obedience to Gods Commandments!

I pray that the Church Leaders will sincerely pray and seek to address this dire situation!

Praying for the women of the Church..........

I find it interesting that God the Holy Spirit seems not to agree with Paul, but anointed women such as kathryn Kuhlman, and Aimee Semple McPherson (to name two out of many). Not only did the Holy Spirit anoint them for ministry but backed their ministry with signs, wonders and miracles.

Did the Holy Spirit not realize or understand what Paul wrote? (I am being facetious.)

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I happen to be among the minority shich believe the reference often used is, in reality, addressing public ridicule of the husband by the wife... and see it as having been, wrongly, utilized as a, idk what's the word, commission even? to do so at every chance to the female and any female, regardless of her marital relationship to any certain male. That a husband would think it is perfectly acceptable to correct his wife in public while it is shameful that she should do so would fall into my definition of unevenly yoked.

It should always been done in private with love and care in less of course to not correct could leadd to harm.

 

[Magenta]

Where 2 or 3 are gathered what? That's not defining the local church. Paul wrote to the churches, the local body of Christ in particular regions. Yes, someone's home can be a local assembly if believers meet there to be taught the word of God.

I'm not sure where the argument against what scripture clearly teaches about the role of men and women? Why such a push back? No one is trying to degrade, persecute, or hold back women. That's such a ridiculous mind set of the feminist movement.

Gathered in His Name does not necessarily mean teaching is taking place. Where or how did you come up with that idea?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I find it interesting that God the Holy Spirit seems not to agree with Paul, but anointed women such as kathryn Kuhlman, and Aimee Semple McPherson (to name two out of many). Not only did the Holy Spirit anoint them for ministry but backed their ministry with signs, wonders and miracles.

Did the Holy Spirit not realize or understand what Paul wrote? (I am being facetious.)

Without knowing who you speak of but this is my point made earlier if the fruit of the Spirit is evident then how can someone say it isn't of the Kingdom?

 

[CS1]

I was a bit busy. As well, I was not then, nor am I now "mad" about any comments here. No reason to be. More concerned, actually. As for your comment, I simply believed you would have read the first three paragraphs of the OP, and understood that I was not expressing my beliefs. I was giving you credit that possibly I should not have.

Could not stay in "third person" and maintain the reasoning for the OP.

Doesn't matter though.............

that's fine.

 

[John146]

I find it interesting that God the Holy Spirit seems not to agree with Paul, but anointed women such as kathryn Kuhlman, and Aimee Semple McPherson (to name two out of many). Not only did the Holy Spirit anoint them for ministry but backed their ministry with signs, wonders and miracles.

Did the Holy Spirit not realize or understand what Paul wrote? (I am being facetious.)

Were these women pastors of churches or evangelists? big difference

 

[John146]

Gathered in His Name does not necessarily mean teaching is taking place. Where or how did you come up with that idea?

What is the context? The church? The Lord is with me wherever I am, alone or with others.

 

[John146]

1. No one trying to degrade as long as women do not teach men the Word of God?
2. Or can they teach a man on the side behind the scenes but when in an assembly of men she has now crossed the line?
3. Or it is only if we put a title on assembly and call it church then teaching men is wrong?

1. No one is degrading women period.
2. Her husband should be present doing the correcting as in Aquila and Priscilla.
3. God's word gave titles. Bishops and deacons are men in God's Holy word.

 

[John146]

1. No one trying to degrade as long as women do not teach men the Word of God?
2. Or can they teach a man on the side behind the scenes but when in an assembly of men she has now crossed the line?
3. Or it is only if we put a title on assembly and call it church then teaching men is wrong?

Do you believe women should become pastors and leaders of a local church assembly? Not guest speakers, not evangelists, not missionaries, but overseers of the body of Christ having authority over the men even their husbands?

 

[proverbs35]

1. No one is degrading women period.
2. Her husband should be present doing the correcting as in Aquila and Priscilla.
3. God's word gave titles. Bishops and deacons are men in God's Holy word.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. Roman's 16:1-2

Phoebe was a deacon.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

1. No one is degrading women period.
2. Her husband should be present doing the correcting as in Aquila and Priscilla.
3. God's word gave titles. Bishops and deacons are men in God's Holy word.

Why does her husband need to be present if it is the Word of God?


Romans 16:1-2
16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.