THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,606
13,863
113
#41
By "and he will rule over you," the Lord was laying down a judgment, upon Eve and all who would come after her. That judgment is still in force, just as it is still in force that wives experience pain in childbirth, the ground still bares thorns and thistles, and we all return to the dust of the earth from whence we came.

If it is a given that one rules over another, it is a given that the latter will be compelled to submit, and in the case of married Christian women, that compulsion is still in force from God Himself, as per the teachings of the Apostle Paul.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the wife learn in silence with all submission. 12 But I suffer not a wife to teach, nor to usurp authority over her husband, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but his wife being deceived was in the transgression.
I suspect, as with most people, you haven't read Genesis 3 anywhere near carefully enough. Nowhere else in Scripture is a law given to someone who will be the passive recipient of the action of that law. God did not say to the animals, "Man will rule over you." He does not say to the Amorites, "The Israelites will slaughter you." If these statements in Genesis 3 are "laws" then humans break laws every time they eat without a sweating brow, or eradicate the thorns and thistles from their vegetable patches.

Rather, these are statements of certain consequence. As a result of sin, husbands will rule over their wives, and by extension, men will rule over women. Can you really believe that God's will for men is to "rule over their wives"? No; God was not giving a command at all.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#42
Listen I don't do what any women tell me, I am the king in my home PERIOD!!!!

Hey guys I got to go my wife says I have been talking to you all long enough and I got dishes to do. YES Dear, I am coming !!!
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#44
And just because Romans were pagan does not mean that the Christians did not have to follow the laws of the land. Please refer back to Clarke's commentary in my other post.

Nah. It's a weak argument IMO. Paul uses the expression "the law" over one hundred times in his epistles, but never in reference to secular Roman Law. For Paul, νόμος equalled the Jewish law of the Old Testament in general, which included the Ten Commandments (Romans 13:8, 2:20, 7:7), and then more specifically of the law of Moses (Romans 7:4, Galatians 4:4).
And if the law isn't roman law, then it must refer to a law of the synagogue.
This would be interesting if you could provide a specific quote identifying something as a written law applicable to the Jews at the time of Christ. Where are you getting this from exactly?

 
S

SophieT

Guest
#45
I'll leave this here,

Acts 18:2
And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them,

Acts 18:18
After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.



Acts 18:24-26
24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
thanks from women everywhere

this has now been pointed out a few times and it is handily ignored or twisted or called a one off

I think some men hate women. I mean that
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#46
Hmm? Now this I've never heard of--is this a teaching you received from a denomination or elsewhere? How would a married woman be usurping authority over her husband if she is teaching in a church?

Because a husband is head over his wife just as Christ is Head over the church.

No, I don't get things from others very often. Most of what I teach is my own.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#47
By "and he will rule over you," the Lord was laying down a judgment, upon Eve and all who would come after her. That judgment is still in force, just as it is still in force that wives experience pain in childbirth, the ground still bares thorns and thistles, and we all return to the dust of the earth from whence we came.

If it is a given that one rules over another, it is a given that the latter will be compelled to submit, and in the case of married Christian women, that compulsion is still in force from God Himself, as per the teachings of the Apostle Paul.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the wife learn in silence with all submission. 12 But I suffer not a wife to teach, nor to usurp authority over her husband, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but his wife being deceived was in the transgression.

that's nonsense

those are curses pronounced by God but there is a way out.

His name is Jesus. have you met Him? we are new creatures in Christ Jesus...old things are passed away and all things are become new

this is not a new presentation in this forum and totally leaves God out of the predicament Adam and Eve created

either it is true we are a new creation in Christ or it is not

you cannot pull out a verse or a passage at your convenience and disregard all the rest of scripture. we have many deceived Adams in church today who are only too happy to point at their Eve and blame her
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#48
Listen I don't do what any women tell me, I am the king in my home PERIOD!!!!

Hey guys I got to go my wife says I have been talking to you all long enough and I got dishes to do. YES Dear, I am coming !!!

Yeah. I wear the pants. The trouble is, sometimes she steals them from me, and I end up standing there in my tightie whities, hoping and praying for a little mercy.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#49
Listen I don't do what any women tell me, I am the king in my home PERIOD!!!!

Hey guys I got to go my wife says I have been talking to you all long enough and I got dishes to do. YES Dear, I am coming !!!

what...she can't buy you a dishwasher? ;)
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#50
that's nonsense

those are curses pronounced by God but there is a way out.

His name is Jesus. have you met Him?

No Sophie, I've never met Him. :rolleyes:

Address me with a little more maturity if you want an answer. Otherwise I'll wait for someone who can post others with a little more respect than that.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#51
what...she can't buy you a dishwasher? ;)
she said God gave me 10 digits to wash those dishes with. Stop bugging me Sister Sophie, I got to clean that bathroom because of you now.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#52
THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

For several weeks now, I have been thinking of the situation of the women in the Church. It has been heavy on my heart, and I have given much thought as to how best present it here on Christian Chat.

I am not arguing any particular Church Group/Denominational Teaching as being right or wrong. That is not the purpose of this Article.

The purpose of this Article is to discuss the situation that millions of women in the Church find themselves. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. For the purpose of this Article, I am taking the position that their teachings are true and Biblical (my personal thoughts not withstanding).

The most taught writing of the Apostle Paul is found in 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The Churches do not allow women to be Pastors, or hold Offices that give them authority over the men of the Congregation based on this writing. And, as far as I know, the millions of women who attend the Churches that teach this, are not rising up in protest. I can not say how they feel in their hearts, or what they think in their minds, but I am not aware of any great movement by the women to protest this teaching of their Church.

The Church Leaders hold that the Apostle Paul was speaking for God, and, thus, this teaching is a Commandment from God. And as such, must be obeyed. I fully agree that the Commandments from God must be obeyed, for Jesus Himself taught this on numerous occasions. One such is found in the 14th Chapter of John: 15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.


The problem is, this is not the only teaching concerning women that the Apostle Paul wrote. 1 Timothy contains other teachings:

9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10) But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
The Apostle Paul also stated how a woman would receive salvation:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

There are othere Epistles where the Apostle spoke of women. The most notable being 1 Corinthians, Chapter 14:
34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

As well, in Titus, Chapter 2 we find:
3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

These are the most know teachings concerning women from the Apostle Paul. Given that it is accepted that the Apostle Paul spoke for God in all he wrote, then all of these teachings must be considered Commandments from God.

And THIS is the situation that millions of women find themselves in!

To be clear, we can show the actual results of the Apostle Paul's teachings:

Women are to keep silence in Church. This means that women are NOT to speak/pray or sing out loud while in the Church Building.

Women are ONLY authorized to teach the young women/girls. However, this teaching can not occur within the Church Building, meaning in a Sunday School Room/Class. For women are forbidden to speak within the Church Building. So, I can only believe that they are to teach the young women at home.

Women are NOT allowed to attend Sunday School Classes, nor are they allowed to own or even read the Holy Bible. The Apostle Paul said "if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home." I can only believe that IF women have a question concerning the Gospel, they are to ask their husbands "at home," and it is the husbands duty to teach his wife the Gospel. In this way, what the women learn from their husbands, they can teach to the young women/girls.

Women are NOT to cut or color or style their hair. Nor are they to wear jewelry or make up. They are to dress in "modest" clothing. The Apostle said:
"9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Now, the situation women are faced with is that these writings of the Apostle Paul must be considered Commandments from God, since their Church Leaders have established that all that the Apostle Paul spoke/wrote WERE Commandments from God.

Given this, and given that Jesus Himself commanded that we obey Him, the millions of women who are not obedient to ALL of the Apostles writings find themselves living "daily" in disobedience to the Commandments of God!

I do not know if these women even consider this reality, or, if they do, how they justify not obeying ALL the writings of the Apostle Paul?

I have GRAVE FEAR for these women. My heart hurts for them, and I pray for them. I also do not believe their Church Leaders even recognize the situation THEY have placed their women in! How do the Church Leaders justify enforcing only one of the Apostles writings while ignoring all the rest? Do they realize that they are committing their women to live lives in disobedience to God?

I pray that somehow, some way, the Church Leaders that teach concerning women, and the women themselves begin to find a way to rectify this habitual life of disobedience. I have GRAVE FEAR for these women!

Even though the Apostle said they would be "saved in childbearing," he also stated:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
To receive their salvation in "childbearing," them MUST live in obedience to Gods Commandments!

I pray that the Church Leaders will sincerely pray and seek to address this dire situation!

Praying for the women of the Church..........
I just re-read this--initially I thought you were speaking of some sort of outlier denominations that were taking Paul's words and twisting and truncating them from the rest of scripture, which always without exception leads to fanaticism. Recall the sin of the Pharisees who were called children of the devil. This sound more like a cult--all isolation of verses leads to FALSE DOCTRINE.

Furthermore, you have added words here that are NOT in scripture.

Instead of praying for the leaders I think you need praying for--I pray for you and I ask everyone that reads this to pray for you.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#53
No Sophie, I've never met Him. :rolleyes:

Address me with a little more maturity if you want an answer. Otherwise I'll wait for someone who can post others with a little more respect than that.
translation: oh gee. I have not thought of that

please continue with your studies so that you can show yourself to be a good steward of God's word
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#54
The problem is, this is not the only teaching concerning women that the Apostle Paul wrote.
I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. It almost appears that you would like to see Christian women rise up and REBEL against the Word of God. And rebellion is worse than witchcraft. Here's what you said: "I have GRAVE FEAR for these women. My heart hurts for them, and I pray for them." Why? Do you think it is all that difficult or cumbersome for Christian women to obey God? Or are you trying to revive "Evangelical Feminism" (an oxymoron)?

The Bible says that the commandments of God are not grievous. So what are these commandments for women:

1. Wives must submit themselves to their own husbands.

2. Christian women must cover their heads and their hair during worship because of the angels. The head covering is a symbol of submission to husbands and/or to Christ.

3. Women must keep silent in the churches. This is not an injunction against women joining in singing hymns within the congregation (as you mistakenly assume). It was primarily for women trying to speak in tongues during the service.

4. Women are forbidden to (1) preach, (2) teach, and (3) assume authority within the local church (which would then give them authority over men). Therefore women cannot be pastors and elders.

So what? There are vast fields of service outside these restrictions, and the primary ministry of women -- according to Scripture -- is within the home and towards the family. That does not degrade women in the least.

So basically you are simply whining, if not trying to incite rebellion.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#55
she said God gave me 10 digits to wash those dishes with. Stop bugging me Sister Sophie, I got to clean that bathroom because of you now.
oh sorry. I hope you have good cleaning supplies :giggle:
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#56
Because a husband is head over his wife just as Christ is Head over the church.

No, I don't get things from others very often. Most of what I teach is my own.
So the husband is head of the wife--how does that have anything to do with her teaching? Where do you find this in scripture?
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#57
translation: oh gee. I have not thought of that

please continue with your studies so that you can show yourself to be a good steward of God's word

I answered your question 24 posts ago. Show yourself to be respectful enough of others and able to have an adult conversation without resorting to insults.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#58
I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. It almost appears that you would like to see Christian women rise up and REBEL against the Word of God. And rebellion is worse than witchcraft. Here's what you said: "I have GRAVE FEAR for these women. My heart hurts for them, and I pray for them." Why? Do you think it is all that difficult or cumbersome for Christian women to obey God? Or are you trying to revive "Evangelical Feminism" (an oxymoron)?

The Bible says that the commandments of God are not grievous. So what are these commandments for women:

1. Wives must submit themselves to their own husbands.

2. Christian women must cover their heads and their hair during worship because of the angels. The head covering is a symbol of submission to husbands and/or to Christ.

3. Women must keep silent in the churches. This is not an injunction against women joining in singing hymns within the congregation (as you mistakenly assume). It was primarily for women trying to speak in tongues during the service.

4. Women are forbidden to (1) preach, (2) teach, and (3) assume authority within the local church (which would then give them authority over men). Therefore women cannot be pastors and elders.

So what? There are vast fields of service outside these restrictions, and the primary ministry of women -- according to Scripture -- is within the home and towards the family. That does not degrade women in the least.

So basically you are simply whining, if not trying to incite rebellion.
You need to go back and re-read the posting. This person is saying the churches need to be MORE strict on women, even adding things that are not based in scripture. His fear ( actually his reverse piety) because he thinks more Legalism needs to be put in place for women, more rules and regulations, more twisting of the gospel to further subjugate women and 'put them in their place.' I'm sure if you re-read, you will be sitting back in your easy chair pleased as punch to see you are actually in agreement.:mad:
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#59
Unfortunately, men in leadership have indeed isolated verses and seem to want to make woman less than a man
This is total nonsense. "Isolated verses"? Do you mean to tell us that when a specific subject is under consideration, Christians are not supposed to bring all the relevant passages together to understand the whole matter?

God is the one who has given those verses. They are not meant to make women "less than a man" but to make women DIFFERENT from men. Contrary to all the transgender nonsense that is taking the West by storm.

Women have very honorable ministries which they can focus on if they so wish. But the first order of business is to obey God, and not blame Paul for what he wrote by divine inspiration.
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#60
Rather, these are statements of certain consequence. As a result of sin, husbands will rule over their wives, and by extension, men will rule over women. Can you really believe that God's will for men is to "rule over their wives"? No; God was not giving a command at all.

Just noticing your post. I can address the rest, but let me ask you this first: Do you really believe it is God's will for Christ to rule over the body of Christ? It has bearing, so I'm curious what your answer would be here, and thanks for the maturity in your post.