1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31
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1. the Church are waiting for the Lords Coming
2. by the word of the Lord (no argument)
3. The Lord Jesus is bringing with Him the Saints who have died
4. FIRST the Resurrection of the dead in Christ
5. AFTER that, the Rapture of remaining (alive) believers
6. Forever to be with the Lord
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i do not see disagreement, one thing you did was combine two separate events into one - your #3
Now when i say separate i am NOT saying anything other then this:
FIRST the dead in Christ are Resurrected
AFTER that we who are alive and remain will be Raptured/Caught Up
They BOTH occur at His Return - but there is a CLEAR FIRST then After That
This is KEY to further understanding the Order set forth by the Lord - not me, not Paul but the Lord.
Now when i say separate i am NOT saying anything other then this:
FIRST the dead in Christ are Resurrected
AFTER that we who are alive and remain will be Raptured/Caught Up
They BOTH occur at His Return - but there is a CLEAR FIRST then After That
This is KEY to further understanding the Order set forth by the Lord - not me, not Paul but the Lord.
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Of course what you do is raise up a term The Great Tribulation and define this thing as a 7 year term. Jesus did say there shall be great tribulation in Matt 24: 21 but when you look at that you put it in a slot of the last week of Daniel....7 years....THE GREAT TRIBULAITON. I think it's hard for Pre-Trib brethren to get over the way their seeing that as it's so ingrained in their minds.
The 7 year tribulation, the 7 year tribulation.....they've heard it for years! I think they'll find some day that they were wrong to connect the dots that way. Jesus did speak of great tribulation but there's no reason to think of it any different than when Jesus said, "In the word you shall have tribulation" John 16:33 The only difference is it will be a higher degree taking place. What the Bible says is God has not appointed us to wrath. 1 Thes 5:9 The wrath of God starts at Rev 7 :3 and it even says that's when it starts. All things before that all difficult times for sure....great tribulation can be found in Rev 6: 9 but NOT wrath from God. If the 5th Seal is wrath from God then Jesus is crushing his own people and why would he do that when he hasn't appointed his children to wrath?
So when Jesus said you will go through tribulation for the reason that sometimes it'll be greater than others doesn't mean it's something outside of what he already said.
Guaranteed, by the word of the Lord, that this is not pre-trib rapture.
1 Thessalonians is the FIRST Key to unlocking the truth.
Every blood washed believer in Christ who wants to know the truth of the Rapture must go through this door.
Order of Scripture
Woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen
1 Thessalonians is the FIRST Key to unlocking the truth.
Every blood washed believer in Christ who wants to know the truth of the Rapture must go through this door.
Order of Scripture
Woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen
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"THE great tribulation" IS actually the term, as found in Revelation 7:14 :
-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/7-14.htm
... and when one considers that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 is saying that the "future" aspects of the Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (that is, from SEAL #1 to His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19; with the SEALS equivalent to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, and of which Paul addresses [of those] the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at its "ARRIVAL" point in time of its unfolding upon the earth--referring to the period of "7 years" when you connect all the dots);
...so that "the GREAT tribulation" being spoken of in Rev7:14 is just the second half of that time-period... and that Rev7:9 parallels [in the same way] what is stated in Matthew 24:14 [/ 26:13]--i.e. that message which WILL BE being preached DURING that "future" specific, LIMITED time-period we commonly call "the trib" [/the "7 years"], FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and NOT what msg is going out "NOW"...
[it's actually a biblical term... not one that has been "raised up" by those simply "wishing it" into existence]
-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/7-14.htm
... and when one considers that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 is saying that the "future" aspects of the Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (that is, from SEAL #1 to His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19; with the SEALS equivalent to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, and of which Paul addresses [of those] the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at its "ARRIVAL" point in time of its unfolding upon the earth--referring to the period of "7 years" when you connect all the dots);
...so that "the GREAT tribulation" being spoken of in Rev7:14 is just the second half of that time-period... and that Rev7:9 parallels [in the same way] what is stated in Matthew 24:14 [/ 26:13]--i.e. that message which WILL BE being preached DURING that "future" specific, LIMITED time-period we commonly call "the trib" [/the "7 years"], FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and NOT what msg is going out "NOW"...
[it's actually a biblical term... not one that has been "raised up" by those simply "wishing it" into existence]
As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men but chosen and precious in God’s sight, you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone,
a chosen and precious cornerstone;
and the one who believes in Him
will never be put to shame.”
To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
and,
“A stone of stumbling
and a rock of offense.”c
They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
If our Lord were to tarry where only one living stone remains in Him on earth - will this Scripture be void?
“See, I lay in Zion a stone,
a chosen and precious cornerstone;
and the one who believes in Him
will never be put to shame.”
To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
and,
“A stone of stumbling
and a rock of offense.”c
They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
If our Lord were to tarry where only one living stone remains in Him on earth - will this Scripture be void?
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These r the begging of sorrow
Mat 24:9 -Vs 1 Then shall they deliver you up to the tribulation, G2347 and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for the sake of my honor.
TOOLS
Mat 24:29 - Vs2 Immediately after the tribulation G2347 of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
TOOLS
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Can ya now 
In my study, in my understanding, judgment and wrath are not the same thing. Judgment is more a legal proceeding, structured and calculated and by the book. Wrath is an emotional response, it involves anger and vengeance and revenge... vengeance is mine says the Lord, right? I don't think it's right or Biblical to conflate the two. Judgment and wrath are not the same thing.
I can see how with that opinion pre-trib makes more sense. But if you see judgment and wrath as differing, pre wrath makes sense.
I do hope and pray that you are right, but I really honestly think you're wrong. And there's no way I'm ever going to convince you to consider that, is there?
Bless you my friend
In my study, in my understanding, judgment and wrath are not the same thing. Judgment is more a legal proceeding, structured and calculated and by the book. Wrath is an emotional response, it involves anger and vengeance and revenge... vengeance is mine says the Lord, right? I don't think it's right or Biblical to conflate the two. Judgment and wrath are not the same thing.
I can see how with that opinion pre-trib makes more sense. But if you see judgment and wrath as differing, pre wrath makes sense.
I do hope and pray that you are right, but I really honestly think you're wrong. And there's no way I'm ever going to convince you to consider that, is there?
Bless you my friend
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What I had said was, "Of course what you do is raise up a term The Great Tribulation and define this thing as a 7 year term." In your mind you have locked this thing up that this is what it is.....a seven year term which I don't think you have scripture to back that up. I believe the great tribulation spoken of in Matt 24: 21 ends at the end of Rev 6 and then the wrath of God begins. But you're calling the wrath of God the great 7 year tribulation including the wrath of God. I believe that's a mistake.
^ Nope.
Not what I said.
What I said is that "the great tribulation" is strictly the SECOND HALF of those 7 years (so 3.5 years, or "1260 days"), Rev7:14 / Matt24:15,21...
The 7 years itself is what 1:1's [1:19c / 4:1] says are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"; <--this phrase being parallel with:
--Luke 18:8's "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (also 2Th1:7b-8 "...INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." ["on" the same ppl in 2Th2:10-12, during that same, specific, future, LIMITED time-period]); and
--"shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" Rom16:20 (<--addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," here; See 1Cor6:3[14])
[in past posts I've listed the connections, meaning, what the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" / FIRST SEAL all connects with elsewhere in Scripture (the START of the 7 year period)... it's not merely these few passages I've listed here in this thread]
Not what I said.
What I said is that "the great tribulation" is strictly the SECOND HALF of those 7 years (so 3.5 years, or "1260 days"), Rev7:14 / Matt24:15,21...
The 7 years itself is what 1:1's [1:19c / 4:1] says are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"; <--this phrase being parallel with:
--Luke 18:8's "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (also 2Th1:7b-8 "...INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." ["on" the same ppl in 2Th2:10-12, during that same, specific, future, LIMITED time-period]); and
--"shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" Rom16:20 (<--addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," here; See 1Cor6:3[14])
[in past posts I've listed the connections, meaning, what the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" / FIRST SEAL all connects with elsewhere in Scripture (the START of the 7 year period)... it's not merely these few passages I've listed here in this thread]
I believe (as I mentioned to you in past posts) that the above ^ passage (plus vv.29-31) connects with the following passages:
Romans 11 -
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [see the Isaiah 27:9 passage below]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [ditto the above bracket; Isa27:9]
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance / are irrevocable.
Isaiah 27 - [verse 9 connecting with Romans 11:27]
9 Therefore Jacob’s guilt will be atoned for,
and the full fruit of the removal of his sin will be this:
When he makes all the altar stones
like crushed bits of chalk,
no Asherah poles or incense altars
will remain standing.
[...]
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. 13 And in that day a great ram’s horn [/trumpet] will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem. [parallel Matt24:29-31 and context]
Romans 11 -
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [see the Isaiah 27:9 passage below]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [ditto the above bracket; Isa27:9]
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance / are irrevocable.
Isaiah 27 - [verse 9 connecting with Romans 11:27]
9 Therefore Jacob’s guilt will be atoned for,
and the full fruit of the removal of his sin will be this:
When he makes all the altar stones
like crushed bits of chalk,
no Asherah poles or incense altars
will remain standing.
[...]
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. 13 And in that day a great ram’s horn [/trumpet] will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem. [parallel Matt24:29-31 and context]