1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

[DavidTree]

So, only a small part of the body of Christ will go through the tribulation...those who are alive and remain. Is that your answer?

No, not my answer - but the word of the Lord.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

 

[Blain]

They are easily seen in Scripture.
The foundation for Truth in understanding Revelation is this spoken by the Apostle John:
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14: 22

What is not seen in Scripture is pre-trib rapture or 'the church shall not go through the great tribulation.

But hey, you can make a EASY $1,000

$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.

*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules have been set forth by the Moderator = our Lord Jesus Christ

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements

Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.

ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Ok let me clear this up for you because you don't seem to understand. That verse that you took out of context if you understand it is not about the tribulation it is about the tribulation he and many others in Christ back then had to go through. In fact it is so clear as to the context of the scripture I honestly don't understand how you think in any way it pertains to the great tribulation.

I hold scripture very highly as well and one thing that I see people do that infuriates me is to twist his word to make it say what they want it to say. You werte given scripture you asked for no twisting words no cherry picking and yet you still couldn't see. Not just anyone can understand bible prophecy and not just anyone can hold their own in such debates like I said before it is the meat of all meats not something you can deal with because you think you can it requires the wisdom and understanding that is given in time if you can so easily try to make the scripture say what you want it to say then perhaps you are not ready for such matters

But I will say this to you the word of God is sacred and holy and is not a toy it is not something you can play with as you pleaseand I would cautious as to how you use it and how you treat it.

 

[Runningman]

The above verse (Rev13:7) corresponds with:

Daniel 7:21 [context, vv.20-24,25] -

"21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"






But look what Jesus said about (what He calls) "My church" that He said He "will build [future tense]" (Matt16:18):

Berean Literal Bible
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades not will prevail against it."

King James Bible
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."






I believe Him.

I believe Him too. Know what else He said?

Matthew 24:21-22

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect (the church) will remain undefeated because God will shorten the days of the great tribulation. Do you still believe Him?

 

[John146]

No, not my answer - but the word of the Lord.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

So, the Lord catches up all the saints and then sends them back to the earth for the tribulation?

 

[rayzor]

Num 23:23 no enchantment against Jacob, neither nor any divination against Israel: At the right time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, Wow! what God done!!

 

[Blain]

I believe Him too. Know what else He said?

Matthew 24:21-22

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect (the church) will remain undefeated because God will shorten the days of the great tribulation. Do you still believe Him?

True but remember that there will be those who are saved in the tribulation mainly Israel which if I am not mistaken is the 144000 being the church that is to go through the great tribulation there is about 8.2 billion people on earth right now actually probably more and out of that number I find it hard to believe there are only 144000 Christians

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Runningman ,

I'm going to guess that you believe Jesus is coming [in the context of what He states within His Olivet Discourse] for the purpose [in that context] of "MARRYING" TEN (or even FIVE) Virgins... am I right that you believe this??

--Matthew 25:1-13, as part of His Olivet Discourse

--Matthew 24:42-51 (parallel Luke 12:36,37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347])

 

[rayzor]

I believe Him too. Know what else He said?

Matthew 24:21-22

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect (the church) will remain undefeated because God will shorten the days of the great tribulation. Do you still believe Him?

yap yap every one will be a none saint till judgement is shown in their favor

 

[Icedaisey]

Jesus is the rock.

 

[DavidTree]

Ok let me clear this up for you because you don't seem to understand. That verse that you took out of context if you understand it is not about the tribulation it is about the tribulation he and many others in Christ back then had to go through. In fact it is so clear as to the context of the scripture I honestly don't understand how you think in any way it pertains to the great tribulation.

I hold scripture very highly as well and one thing that I see people do that infuriates me is to twist his word to make it say what they want it to say. You werte given scripture you asked for no twisting words no cherry picking and yet you still couldn't see. Not just anyone can understand bible prophecy and not just anyone can hold their own in such debates like I said before it is the meat of all meats not something you can deal with because you think you can it requires the wisdom and understanding that is given in time if you can so easily try to make the scripture say what you want it to say then perhaps you are not ready for such matters

But I will say this to you the word of God is sacred and holy and is not a toy it is not something you can play with as you pleaseand I would cautious as to how you use it and how you treat it.

You are unable to meet the challenge for the very reasons you stated.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Scripture cannot lie - if you believe in the error of pre-trib, prove it.
You had better be careful for you have been forewarned by the word of God and you will give an account to Him.

Order of Scripture
Woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me nor other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen

 

[rayzor]

True but remember that there will be those who are saved in the tribulation mainly Israel which if I am not mistaken is the 144000 being the church that is to go through the great tribulation there is about 8.2 billion people on earth right now actually probably more and out of that number I find it hard to believe there are only 144000 Christians

Those are virgins aren't they?

 

[DavidTree]

So, the Lord catches up all the saints and then sends them back to the earth for the tribulation?

Are you unable to read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ???

Do you need an interpreter???

 

[Blain]

You are unable to meet the challenge for the very reasons you stated.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Scripture cannot lie - if you believe in the error of pre-trib, prove it.
You had better be careful for you have been forewarned by the word of God and you will give an account to Him.

Order of Scripture
Woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me nor other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen

Oh I could post scripture but I know your type even if I do you will not accept it as truth you won't even take it into consideration. I have been in many of these debates many many of them I am well versed in the pattern and know how to spot an unteachable heart. As I said before you were given the scripture you demanded and refused to soak it in instead you continued to just try to prove yourself right.
As I said before I have studied this topic on all sides and if you look at scripture from each point of view you can find evidence for each side you can easily make scripture fit your agenda but you see I use scripture to help others not to prove myself right except for once in a blue moon when I am lead to do so


When I am in a debate I do so to learn and grow I enjoy a good debate between believers when it produces fruit but nonstop back and forths are not my style and I certaintly don't use scripture for the sheer purpose of debunking or proving myself right I use it sparingly because I hold it as a treasure however whether I meet the challenge as you put it should be decided from a third party not you or I because we are to involved

 

[Runningman]

True but remember that there will be those who are saved in the tribulation mainly Israel which if I am not mistaken is the 144000 being the church that is to go through the great tribulation there is about 8.2 billion people on earth right now actually probably more and out of that number I find it hard to believe there are only 144000 Christians

A few things about the 144,000.

Revelation 14:4-5
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

1. They're virgins
2. They follow the Lamb (Jesus Christ) meaning they are Christians.
3. They're first fruits.
4. They spoke no guile.
5. Without fault before God.

I'd say this narrows down the pool of potential candidates.

 

[John146]

Are you unable to read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ???

Do you need an interpreter???

1. The Lord descends in a cloud.
2. The dead are resurrected.
3. The resurrected saints are caught up together with those who are alive and remain.
4. All those caught up are with the Lord forever.

 

[Blain]

A few things about the 144,000.

Revelation 14:4-5
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

1. They're virgins
2. They follow the Lamb (Jesus Christ) meaning they are Christians.
3. They're first fruits.
4. They spoke no guile.
5. Without fault before God.

I'd say this narrows down the pool of potential candidates.

Yes I also believe them to be Christians I could bge mistaken about Israel but as to if these believers were the remnant or if it is all believers before the rapture what do you think? I am asking honestly notto argue or anything.

 

[Blain]

Those are virgins aren't they?

No virgins are not the literal meaning they are symbolic

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A few things about the 144,000.

Revelation 14:4-5
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Do you believe these are the same "144,000" mentioned back in chpt 7? Or different ones?

 

[rayzor]

Are you unable to read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ???

Do you need an interpreter???

1. saints fail 4 a while.Tell judgement is found in there favour
2. before that time the harlet tortures them
3. Devil kills harlot with 10 nations because god put it into his heart 2 hate her
4. Before that happens we r told to get out of the harlot
5. harlot gets payed back double
6. become a habitats for demons
7. Nations stay away because of fear of her torment

 

[rayzor]

Do you believe these are the same "144,000" mentioned back in chpt 7? Or different ones?

will u could surmise that one is born again... They become virgins..still...Humm?