1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

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TheDivineWatermark

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^ "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST" where the "SHALL RISE FIRST" refers to their "body" being RESURRECTED (not to their body being "CAUGHT UP / SNATCHED" to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR [as though "caught up" at a point in time prior to when we/the still-alive will be "caught up". NO! The text itself does not allow for such an interpretation.])



The definition of "resurrection" [or "rise" in this case; referring to their deceased BODIES being raised up] is "to stand again" (to stand up out of their graves, bodily)

(it does NOT mean "to be 'CAUGHT UP [G726]'")



Many folks do conflate these ideas (but should not)... it's common and easy to do. = )
 
Aug 2, 2021
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^ "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST" where the "SHALL RISE FIRST" refers to their "body" being RESURRECTED (not to their body being "CAUGHT UP / SNATCHED" to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR [as though "caught up" at a point in time prior to when we/the still-alive will be "caught up". NO! The text itself does not allow for such an interpretation.])



The definition of "resurrection" [or "rise" in this case; referring to their deceased BODIES being raised up] is "to stand again" (to stand up out of their graves, bodily)

(it does NOT mean "to be 'CAUGHT UP [G726]'")



Many folks do conflate these ideas (but should not)... it's common and easy to do. = )
The purpose of the Resurrection is for them to be 'Caught Up' - just as the Scripture declares.

They will NOT be standing around waiting for the 'Coming of the Lord' that is reserved for 'we who are alive and remain'.

Will this take place on that Day - YES it will - FIRST the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ - AFTER that we who are alive and remain.

God's word is for children - His Children

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

And since our Lord said and meant this so He also means this:
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
Revelation 22: 18-19

You are officially known as Mr. Twister - the Lord knows your ways and we who trust Him alone can see.....
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The phrase in the text itself is:

"caught up TOGETHER"



"caught up [VERB] TOGETHER [ADVERB; and *meaning*, 'AT THE SAME TIME']"<--the ADVERB and the VERB must be attached, grammatically speaking...

...which means that the "caught up" ACTION occurs at ONE SINGULAR POINT in time, and NOT separately.


That is what the grammar of the text actually INFORMS US as to how it will take place.



"and so [/in this way] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (IOW, the "RAPTURE / SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / harpazo"-ACTION is the means by which the "UNIONed-with [G4862] Him" thing occurs... and that is "AS ONE BODY" (at the SAME POINT IN TIME, not separately, at differing points in time! No.)
 
Aug 2, 2021
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The phrase in the text itself is:

"caught up TOGETHER"



"caught up [VERB] TOGETHER [ADVERB; and *meaning*, 'AT THE SAME TIME']"<--the ADVERB and the VERB must be attached, grammatically speaking...

...which means that the "caught up" ACTION occurs at ONE SINGULAR POINT in time, and NOT separately.


That is what the grammar of the text actually INFORMS US as to how it will take place.



"and so [/in this way] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (IOW, the "RAPTURE / SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / harpazo"-ACTION is the means by which the "UNIONed-with [G4862] Him" thing occurs... and that is "AS ONE BODY" (at the SAME POINT IN TIME, not separately, at differing points in time! No.)
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. - 1 Corinthians 15:23

Order of Scripture
Woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or to other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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^ 1 Corinthians 15:23's "[re: resurrection] but EACH in his own ORDER / RANK" pertains to the fact that:

--there is more than ONE "harvest" (in nature and in scripture);

--there is more than ONE "firstfruit" ("a KIND of firstfruit" James 1:18... and the TWO *distinct* MENTIONS of "firstfruit" in Leviticus 23; *we* are not "the 144,000," for example... but they are also called "firstfruit" [distinct "harvest"])

--there is more than ONE point in time when ppl are "resurrected [biblically-defined as: 'to stand again' (on the earth)]"

--etc... (but I'm outta time for now... :D )
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Ok, that is your opinion, if it were true you would be able to show it from Scripture ALONE.
The Church is not the body of Christ, the collective group of believers who have been placed in Christ? Do you need Scripture for that?
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Let's start by using the King James Bible, the word of God. Using any other version IS taking away or adding to scripture.;)
 
Aug 2, 2021
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The Church is not the body of Christ, the collective group of believers who have been placed in Christ? Do you need Scripture for that?
You combined a falsehood with truth.

TRUTH: We are His Body the Church
falsehood: the Church will not see tribulation or go through tribulation
 
Aug 2, 2021
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The Church is not the body of Christ, the collective group of believers who have been placed in Christ? Do you need Scripture for that?
lol i like what you at the end - Do you need Scripture for that?

See, that is good fellowship brother - i love it - thank you
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Any idea of who the two witnesses are?
revelation can always be solved by the law or prophets of gospel

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my Lord.

Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so John is offering apacolypse of prophetic mystery

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:1-3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses have the law which witnesses of Christ , and Elijah was king of the prophets who witness of Christ the Lord and God of the earth .

so I believe the law and prophets are the two witnesses ( the ot)

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18, 21-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s my belief and not very many others , that revelation is an apocalypse ( revealing of hidden knowledge) rather than a literal book of fiture earthly events.

so we see things like two men but if you examine their ministry you find Moses and Elijah representing the law and prophets witness of the messiah and then you notice they are taken up and the kingdom has been declared , then chapter twelve begins the little
Book that John the apostle was given


“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, ( 3 years 6 months ) clothed in sackcloth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3, 6‬ ‭

“have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:”

Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and

“have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”


“And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭7:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then of course the plagues Moses sent by Gods hand in Egypt
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
revelation can always be solved by the law or prophets of gospel

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my Lord.

Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so John is offering apacolypse of prophetic mystery

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:1-3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses have the law which witnesses of Christ , and Elijah was king of the prophets who witness of Christ the Lord and God of the earth .

so I believe the law and prophets are the two witnesses ( the ot)

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18, 21-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s my belief and not very many others , that revelation is an apocalypse ( revealing of hidden knowledge) rather than a literal book of fiture earthly events.

so we see things like two men but if you examine their ministry you find Moses and Elijah representing the law and prophets witness of the messiah and then you notice they are taken up and the kingdom has been declared , then chapter twelve begins the little
Book that John the apostle was given


“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, ( 3 years 6 months ) clothed in sackcloth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3, 6‬ ‭

“have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:”

Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and

“have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”


“And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭7:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then of course the plagues Moses sent by Gods hand in Egypt
You, know, for the longest time i believed it was Moses and Elijah for they very scripture you post: when they appeared on the mount of transfiguration.

lately i think there is another who will take the place of Moses, according to scripture.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
revelation can always be solved by the law or prophets of gospel

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my Lord.

Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so John is offering apacolypse of prophetic mystery

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:1-3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses have the law which witnesses of Christ , and Elijah was king of the prophets who witness of Christ the Lord and God of the earth .

so I believe the law and prophets are the two witnesses ( the ot)

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18, 21-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s my belief and not very many others , that revelation is an apocalypse ( revealing of hidden knowledge) rather than a literal book of fiture earthly events.

so we see things like two men but if you examine their ministry you find Moses and Elijah representing the law and prophets witness of the messiah and then you notice they are taken up and the kingdom has been declared , then chapter twelve begins the little
Book that John the apostle was given


“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, ( 3 years 6 months ) clothed in sackcloth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3, 6‬ ‭

“have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:”

Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and

“have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”


“And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭7:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then of course the plagues Moses sent by Gods hand in Egypt
beautiful connection of scripture unto Itself - love it
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,661
5,908
113
You, know, for the longest time i believed it was Moses and Elijah for they very scripture you post: when they appeared on the mount of transfiguration.

lately i think there is another who will take the place of Moses, according to scripture.
ah yeah brother that’s the witness of Jesus Christ by Moses in the law 😊 thats my point

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Here’s who that prophet is

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the New Testament is revealing the ot witness of Jesus that’s my entire point so when Jesus said this it makes perfect sense

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Does that make sense at all ?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
:) I'll just place this here for those readers who may be interested:

Regarding the Subject of "apocalyptic literature" / texts:

https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/

[quoting excerpt from article]

"Before swallowing the ideas of apocalyptic literature it is wise to examine the presuppositions of those who promote it."
--Paul Martin Henebury

[underline mine; more at link]
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
revelation can always be solved by the law or prophets of gospel

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my Lord.

Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so John is offering apacolypse of prophetic mystery

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:1-3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses have the law which witnesses of Christ , and Elijah was king of the prophets who witness of Christ the Lord and God of the earth .

so I believe the law and prophets are the two witnesses ( the ot)

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18, 21-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s my belief and not very many others , that revelation is an apocalypse ( revealing of hidden knowledge) rather than a literal book of fiture earthly events.

so we see things like two men but if you examine their ministry you find Moses and Elijah representing the law and prophets witness of the messiah and then you notice they are taken up and the kingdom has been declared , then chapter twelve begins the little
Book that John the apostle was given


“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, ( 3 years 6 months ) clothed in sackcloth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3, 6‬ ‭

“have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:”

Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and

“have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”


“And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭7:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then of course the plagues Moses sent by Gods hand in Egypt
anybody else who could be these two - from Scripture - just curious, want to permit our minds travel through Scripture
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
revelation can always be solved by the law or prophets of gospel

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my Lord.

Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so John is offering apacolypse of prophetic mystery

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:1-3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses have the law which witnesses of Christ , and Elijah was king of the prophets who witness of Christ the Lord and God of the earth .

so I believe the law and prophets are the two witnesses ( the ot)

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18, 21-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s my belief and not very many others , that revelation is an apocalypse ( revealing of hidden knowledge) rather than a literal book of fiture earthly events.

so we see things like two men but if you examine their ministry you find Moses and Elijah representing the law and prophets witness of the messiah and then you notice they are taken up and the kingdom has been declared , then chapter twelve begins the little
Book that John the apostle was given


“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, ( 3 years 6 months ) clothed in sackcloth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3, 6‬ ‭

“have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:”

Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and

“have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”


“And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭7:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then of course the plagues Moses sent by Gods hand in Egypt
beautiful connection of scripture unto Itself - love it

AND - this is the only way to 'rightly divide the Word of Truth'
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Some speculate that one of the "2 Witnesses" could be John himself, and they base that idea on Revelation 10:11, which says, "11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."



[personally, since it says the "2 Witnesses" will be killed, I'm leaning toward it not likely being "John" as one of them. JMHO... but who knows... As far as I can tell, they COULD be two completely new guys on the scene, as opposed to two OT saints, as commonly supposed... But, again, I couldn't say for sure...]
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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anybody else who could be these two - from Scripture - just curious, want to permit our minds travel through Scripture
I can’t remember any other two , who stood by with Jesus in his glory but I don’t know anything and certainly not everything I always allow that I could be cooky lol but have to follow where scripture is leading me.

“But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:27, 29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see how both of them are in glory and the three disciples are witnessing Jesus , Moses and Elijah in glory and he just told them they would see the kingdom ? Also how they are witnessing of Jesus crucifixion ?

so you have three earthly witnesses , three heavenly glorified witnesses and God saying “ this is the one listen to him “

but I truly don’t know if there’s any other better understanding I never do I just have to go where scripture takes me I’ve found value in getting away from theology and thkngs esrablisjed in the world of how to understand the scriptures I think there’s a lot of fallacy and error in those thkngs but scripture paints a very clear and convincing picture that at least has me thinking I’m starting to see something powerful in the witness of Christ in the ot and epistles
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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:) I'll just place this here for those readers who may be interested:

Regarding the Subject of "apocalyptic literature" / texts:

https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/

[quoting excerpt from article]

"Before swallowing the ideas of apocalyptic literature it is wise to examine the presuppositions of those who promote it."
--Paul Martin Henebury

[underline mine; more at link]
you do realize the book of revelation is called the book of apocalypse and translated to Say revelation ?