When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

lamad · May 1, 2021

36 like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet,

This is a simile: His coming will be LIKE a man coming from His wedding banquet. Another feast is not a requirement in a simile.

Indeed, Jesus' Rev. 19 coming will be Him coming from a wedding banquet. I would need further proof of another banquet after Jesus returns.

Thanks. I now understand you.

posthuman · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

it says no one was found
ii does not say "man"
it does not say God was unworthy

is that clear enough for you to understand?

there is only one Savior -- the LORD, I AM
He is a God who hides Himself
Jesus is the Savior → Jesus is that very same I AM, the eternally self-existing One
He alone is worthy
He was not "found" and then He revealed Himself.

posthuman · May 1, 2021

posthuman said:

@lamad i hope now that a day has passed, you took some of that time to think about what i told you? that you meditated on the scripture i gave you, that you initially rejected as meaningless?
every bit of the Bible is connected. we do not understand the last book when we don't understand those that are before it.

this is what the scripture, which you think is 'red herrings,' teaches:

Revelation 5-6 is not about God being subject to created things ((time)) and lacking 'worth' needing to 'become good enough' - that's blasphemy.
Revelation 5-6, the opening of the scroll, is about God, according to His purpose, not being 'found' and then suddenly appearing, being revealed

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias.
(Luke 4:17)

TheDivineWatermark · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

I disagree.

He's (at that point) headed DOWN TO it.

The text does not indicate that the FEAST has taken place.

The text indicates that the "[guests] having been INVITED [PERFECT participle]" part has taken place, but that ("INVITED"/'INVITING" thing) takes place ON THE EARTH, throughout the Trib years. That "INVITING TO" (TO the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [earthly]) is the TASK of the believing remnant of Israel (the ones Matt24:9 says "shall be hated of all the nations FOR MY NAME'S SAKE") IN / DURING / WITHIN the [7] Trib years (and is what Matt24:14 / 26:13 refers to... [OLIVE OIL... IN THE NIGHT... IN THE NIGHT WATCHES... 'LAMPS LIT'... i.e. the TRIB yrs... not *NOW*]; IOW, Israel is the one tasked with INVITING the Gentiles [guests] TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age [at least their ENTRANCE INTO it, its inauguration point in time being the "feast/supper" thing])--the "believing remnant" being the ones to obediently carry out the task! (despite the very harsh conditions within the trib yrs);

IOW, *we* are not sending out the "invitation" to the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" pertaining to the "guests [plural]" FOR THAT [as THEY are tasked to do!], but are rather asking ppl [now/today/'in this PRESENT age [singular]'/church age, if you will] to be a part of "the MARRIAGE" [/Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"--reflected in the 2Cor11:2 verse (re: SINGULAR one) 'betrothed' and then 'PRESENT[ed]' at the right time] which DOES/WILL take place "UP in Heaven")

In every one of the "pictures" provided in the gospels, no "bride/wife [singular]" is ever referred to... only "guests [plural], "10 [/5] virginS/bridesmaidS [plural]," etc [plural]. This will be when Jesus RETURNS to the earth (and none of those ppl [saints] at that point in time will ever LIFT OFF the earth... because the "meal [G347]"/"wedding feast/supper" is LOCATED on the earth (and is a PICTURE of their ENTRANCE INTO [or not, in the case of the "unbelievers"] the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age... in their mortal bodies [capable of reproducing/bearing children])

lamad · May 1, 2021

posthuman said:

All you are saying is, you still don't understand Rev. 4 & 5. God is drawing a picture for us with words, for the purpose of a context for the first seals.

I know, your point of view is, "i am right - why are you not believing what I'm saying..." Well, I could say the same thing, but I don't. I teach the truth of scripture. If you don't believe it, then use the same scriptures to prove I am wrong. What you did instead is bring scriptures that have NO RELATIONSHIP to the scriptures we are discussing.

I asked "why was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father when there are a dozen verses showing us that is where He went to be? Stephen SAW him there" It is the same question Jesus asked ME. I assure you, I did not say "perhaps you were hiding." This is a book about His revealing, not a book of His hiding! After Jesus came, God was NOT HIDING, He was walking among men.

So, let's try again. I got stuck in John weeping and much. I kept bugging God about that, asking Him why we needed to know that John wept, and why much. After two or three weeks of me asking, HE answered. He said, "It shows timing. I studied and studied trying to find timing. I was blind. After a few more weeks He spoke again and said, "it also shows the movement of time. Another few weeks of study and I could not find timing or the movement of time. I was frustrated. Finally He had mercy on my slow mind and spoke again:

Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

I did not imagine this. I did not eat pizza. I was wide awake. I heard His voice and His words. These are His words. Words from the Head of the Church - the Lord Jesus Christ. You can believe them or doubt them - your choice. However, since you are trying to teach men the REAL meaning of this passage, please, answer these questions yourself: SHOW US the real meaning of this passage.

I could not find the answer until He sent me to chapter 12 to discover His words: "History lesson." He spoke those words and then sent me back to chapters 4 & 5. In a few seconds I could answer every question.

I would like to ask you another question from me:

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Do you believe John was mistaken?

posthuman · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

that's a bad translation.

καὶ ἔκλαιον πολὺ, ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἄξιος εὑρέθη ἀνοῖξαι τὸ βιβλίον οὔτε βλέπειν αὐτό.

"no one was found"

not 'God wasn't worthy' but 'God was not found'

your homework is, "not found by who?"

Oseas3 · May 1, 2021

ewq1938 said:

John 4: v.5-7&25-26 and 28-30 and 39 to 42

5 Then cometh JESUS to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with His journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water:

25 The woman saith unto JESUS, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto JESUS.

39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on JESUS for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

40 So when the Samaritans were come unto Him, they besought Him that He would tarry with them: and He abode there two days.

41 And many more believed because of His own word;

42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.

43 Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

Matthew 25:v. 29 -
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Oseas3 · May 1, 2021

posthuman said:

JESUS said: ... any man knoweth the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. The great mystery is ; The Word is GOD. He is in accult. ... any man knoweth the Father, save the Son, and to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.

Who does know the invisible GOD? only he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.

lamad · May 1, 2021

posthuman said:

Out of 60 some English translations
6 say "man"
56 say "one"
1 says "nobody"
1 says "creature"

We don't or shouldn't form doctrine from a single verse. We take all verses on a subject to form doctrine.

The angel cried WHO is worthy.
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Jesus Christ, the head of the church spoke to me and I heard His voice and His words:

. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

It is a legitimate answer to what I had asked Him: why did we need to know that John wept and why much? To imagine Jesus was hiding somewhere on earth or under the earth when this seach was made is in my mind, ridiculous. The importance of getting the seals opened so that the book could be opened simply could not be overstated: it is how Satan is finally removed from his place as god of this world.

When we example this entire passage, and take Jesus' words as really from HIM, there can be no doubt that at this particular time of the first search John watched, Jesus was not at that time worthy to open the seals.

This is not blasphemy! It is what is written.

If we read ahead we get a hint of what may have been written on the outside of the scroll or book:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

It seems then that ONLY the Redeemer could be found worthy.

I submit, Jesus was not fully our redeemer until after His death and resurrection. That is Paul's gospel.

Was Jesus a redeemer as a baby? No. Was He a redeemer healing the sick? No. He BECAME the redeemer when He rose from the dead.

Was he worthy to take the book and open the seals when He was a baby? No. He BECAME worthy when He rose from the dead.

What did Jesus do soon after He rose from the dead?

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

It is to be understood that as soon ad He sent Mary away, He ascended. John SAW Him as He entered the Throne room:

Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

He sent Mary away and then He ascended and John got to see that moment in the vision. The next thing Jesus did was get the book.

WHEN did Jesus get the book into His hands?

TheDivineWatermark · May 1, 2021

"[re: 'the dragon'] And he did not have strength [/prevail], nor was found [G2147] a place for them ['the dragon and his angels'] any longer in heaven." Rev12:8

[a judgment was conducted, and a verdict rendered = ) ... he is/they are given the boot.

(But it seems to me that this doesn't carry the meaning of "no one could find the 'place' anywhere, it was nowhere to be found, even though we tried our best and used our strongest pair of glasses..."

)]

TheDivineWatermark · May 1, 2021

Rev 5:4 - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/5-4.htm

____________

Paul... brought before their human/earthly "bema" (court) [did I already show this LIST earlier in this thread?? I forget...]... Same G2147 word:

Acts 23:9 V-PIA-1P
GRK: Οὐδὲν κακὸν εὑρίσκομεν ἐν τῷ
NAS: saying, We find nothing
KJV: and strove, saying, We find no evil
INT: Nothing evil we find in the

Acts 23:29 V-AIA-1S
GRK: ὃν εὗρον ἐγκαλούμενον περὶ
NAS: and I found him to be accused over
KJV: Whom I perceived to be accused of
INT: whom I found to be accused concerning

Acts 24:5 V-APA-NMP
GRK: εὑρόντες γὰρ τὸν
NAS: For we have found this man
KJV: For we have found this man
INT: Having found for the

Acts 24:12 V-AIA-3P
GRK: τῷ ἱερῷ εὗρόν με πρός
NAS: in the city [itself] did they find me carrying on a discussion
KJV: And they neither found me in
INT: the temple did they find me with

Acts 24:18 V-AIA-3P
GRK: ἐν αἷς εὗρόν με ἡγνισμένον
NAS: in which they found me [occupied] in the temple,
KJV: from Asia found me purified
INT: Amidst which they found me purified

Acts 24:20 V-AIA-3P
GRK: εἰπάτωσαν τί εὗρον ἀδίκημα στάντος
NAS: misdeed they found when I stood
KJV: if they have found any
INT: let them say any they found unrighteousness having stood

posthuman · May 1, 2021

Oseas3 said:

when they had come into the house,
they saw the young Child with Mary His mother,
and fell down and worshiped Him.
(Matthew 2:11)

posthuman · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

dude He is the One who wrote it, and sealed it.

He that is Holy, and True, which hath the key of David,

which openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth and no man openeth

(Revelation 3:7)

the question is when did He make Himself found and by whom?
from whom did He hide Himself and for how long?

posthuman · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

that's "no one" -- literally "none"

not "no man"

I AM THAT I AM is never not.

posthuman · May 1, 2021

@lamad

do you believe Christ is God, yes or no?

TheDivineWatermark · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

For one thing, "the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3) are not given a "time-length".

And "the things WHICH ARE" are set in contradistinction to "the things which must take place AFTER THESE [THINGS]".

John wasn't told (apparently) "how long" that "the things WHICH ARE" would continue/last.

But he WAS told (by Jesus) "I WILL SHOW you what [things] must come to pass AFTER THESE [THINGS]" [4:1] (which corresponds with what 1:1 was saying).

(SAME thing Jesus was given "TO SHOW UNTO" [in v.1], which verse spells out the length of time FOR THOSE "SHOWN" ['TO SHOW UNTO'] things... that is, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period things, aka "the 7-yr [PROPHESIED] Trib period of time"... [same time-period as both Lk18:8 and Rom16:20 also speak to (<--tho distinct locations for each of these two verses)... a specific, *future*, LIMITED time-period, what we call the Trib, or 70th Week (7 yrs)])

posthuman · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

I hid My face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you
says the LORD, your Redeemer
(Isaiah 54:8)

God is never unworthy.
do not hold any view that blasphemes Him.
God is not the one who taught you blasphemies.

lamad · May 1, 2021

posthuman said:

Sorry, but you are mistaken: Jesus Christ (the second part of the triune Godhead) was NOT found worthy to take the book and open the seals on the book UNTIL He prevailed over death.

(Truth of scripture is not blaspheming.)

Are you saying Jesus did not have to die?

TheDivineWatermark · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

Except Paul (speaking of "the DOTL's ARRIVAL / STARTING point) purposely uses the "SINGULAR" form of that word (same word Jesus used in the PLURAL) to POINT OUT the BP that COMES UPON a woman... not the ones further down along the line, well into labor.

Paul is connecting the STARTING POINTS (between "the DOTL" his epistle is covering) and Jesus' words in His Olivet Discourse, thus marking its COMMENCING.

[again, EVERYTHING in Matt24 is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"... Jesus is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse, but rather the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, and what immediately precedes and leads UP TO THAT (i.e. the 7-yr trib years, aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period--Rev1:1 [/ 1:19c / 4:1 (7:3)])]

TheDivineWatermark · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

I disagree.

Only the first FOUR Trumpets occur in the first half of the Week.

The "[3] WOES" (attached to Trumpets 5,6,7 per Rev8:13) do not occur until MID-trib (and following).

[your "chronology" is entirely screwy!

(I *think* because you are trying to "reason" things out a bit too much, but disregarding the text, in places... But I know that ascertaining chronology of Rev is not exactly the easiest task ever, so... I do understand = ) )]

When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

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