When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

[lamad]

^ [addressing Post #177] I already mentioned (in another post) the last three mentions in the OT (same as in your 1Chron5:18 mention):


Zec 9:10
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow H7198 shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Zec 9:13
When I have bent [to string the bow] Judah for me, filled the bow H7198 [i.e. loaded arrows] with Ephraim [/Israel], and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

Zec 10:4
Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, H7198 out of him every oppressor together.




Not sure what the problem is.

I've already said he goes [/went] forth "conquering and to conquer" (6:2)... referring to the point in time that Jesus opens that first seal (when He will "STAND to JUDGE" ... whereas presently it is, "[you have 'kept'] 'the WORD of My patient endurance' " 3:10

The problem is, you made it appear that "toxon's main use was of deception! In truth, you would have to STRETCH to make ANY use of "toxon" to mean deception. It is a bow to shoot arrows, plain and simple.

 

[lamad]

^ [addressing Post #177]

I've already said he goes [/went] forth "conquering and to conquer" (6:2)... referring to the point in time that Jesus opens that first seal (when He will "STAND to JUDGE" ... whereas presently it is, "[you have 'kept'] 'the WORD of My patient endurance' " 3:10

The truth is, the CHURCH goes forth overcoming and to overcome. It started when Jesus told them to go - you know, right around the time He ascended! ;-)

Again you are off by a mile trying to force judgment upon Jesus the moment He ascended back into heaven. STOP pulling verses out of context! You should know better! (I corrected you on this once.)

 

[Oseas3]

Bla bla bla...that is how much I pay attention to your posts. All you spew is hate.

Oh am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the Truth?

I know that you hate the Truth, you hate the true Word of GOD, and you replace the Word of Truth among the true believers by devilish tares, trying to make an adept of your satanic teachings. He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. The thief comes not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

If you make a proselyte , you make him twofold more the child of hell,
fortunately, the sheep of the Lord JESUS do not follow you, as we can see here in this forum,
because they do not follow a stranger, they know not the voice of strangers.
Yeah, a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers, do you understand?

John 8:v.47 says: He that is of GOD hears GOD's words: you therefore hear them not, because ye are not of GOD. - The Word is GOD -

What does the Word of GOD say?

Ecclesiastes 12:v.10 to 14

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one Shepherd.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his words: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into Judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matthew 25:v. 41-43

41 Then shall JESUS say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: (instead to give water, these devilish messengers give vinegar to the people)

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them, and the worthless servant will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[lamad]

Where did I say that??



2Th2:4 is at MID-trib (just like Dan9:27b).

That's not the same thing as 2Th2:9a / Dan9:27a[26b].

I disagree that he is "revealed" at MID-trib.

Rather, immediately in the "aftermath" of "OUR RAPTURE / THE DEPARTURE" (per 2Th2:7b-8a and how the wording here is PARALLEL to the wording of Lam2:3-4 in the midst of "wrath" words [bearing in mind, Hab1:6,12])

It does not fit:

It is generally taught in pretrib circles that it will be the confirming of the covenant that allows the temple to be built. If this is the case, Then the temple will be erected - probably soon into the first 1260 days. I suspect all the blocks are hewn and ready. So they begin the daily sacrifices. Then at some point the man of sin will stop them. You seem to want to stop them before they are started! (it seems you are always in a hurry for things)

Sadly John did not see any of this so did not write. All we know is the trumpets fill up the first half of the week. No mention of sacrifices. In fact, no mention of the BEAST - not until chapter 13! How do you explain that?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The truth is, the CHURCH goes forth overcoming and to overcome. It started when Jesus told them to go - you know, right around the time He ascended! ;-)

[OH my! ATROCIOUS! ]

How can it be that SEAL ONE is as you say, when Jesus had stated in Luke 21:12 that the events of 70ad come "BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE ALL these beginning of birth pangs (just described, in vv.8-11!)]", meaning, the 70ad events of vv.12-24a??

Again you are off by a mile trying to force judgment upon Jesus the moment He ascended back into heaven. STOP pulling verses out of context! You should know better! (I corrected you on this once.)

No, you are assuming this is what was being shown in the throne room scene.

But that would DISAGREE with all of the "chronology" issues.



I've seen too much of the "chronology" issues (in the Scripture itself), that I cannot "un-see" it.

 

[lamad]

Oh am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the Truth?

I know that you hate the Truth, you hate the true Word of GOD, and you replace the Word of Truth among the true believers by devilish tares, trying to make an adept of your satanic teachings. He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. The thief comes not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

If you make a proselyte , you make him twofold more the child of hell,
fortunately, the sheep of the Lord JESUS do not follow you, as we can see here in this forum,
because they do not follow a stranger, they know not the voice of strangers.
Yeah, a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers, do you understand?

John 8:v.47 says: He that is of GOD hears GOD's words: you therefore hear them not, because ye are not of GOD. - The Word is GOD -

What does the Word of GOD say?

Ecclesiastes 12:v.10 to 14

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one Shepherd.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his words: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into Judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matthew 25:v. 41-43

41 Then shall JESUS say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: (instead to give water, these devilish messengers give vinegar to the people)

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them, and the worthless servant will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The truth you spew is YOUR truth and only your truth. You only THINK it is God's truth.

How about this: when I am in heaven after the rapture, I will look you up and ask how your doctrine worked for you. And I will tell you how mine worked for me. Deal?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It does not fit:

It is generally taught in pretrib circles that it will be the confirming of the covenant that allows the temple to be built. If this is the case, Then the temple will be erected - probably soon into the first 1260 days. I suspect all the blocks are hewn and ready. So they begin the daily sacrifices. Then at some point the man of sin will stop them. You seem to want to stop them before they are started! (it seems you are always in a hurry for things)

Well, for one thing, I am not conflating the MID-trib things with those of the START-of-trib things.



Personally, I don't know which way Dan9:27a reads, whether:

--"he shall confirm / strengthen the covenant [ALONG-]with the many"

[OR]

--"he shall confirm /strengthen the covenant with [/as one side of two parties] the many"



(I do think the phrase "the many" [as used elsewhere] speaks of Israel... so whether this is saying "ALONG-with them" or "AS ONE OF TWO PARTIES with them," I am unsure... I would not want to state one or the other definitively, since I'm not entirely sure which it actually means--and it does not affect the "chronology" issue either way!)



Let me just put it like this (for a couple of examples)... I believe the verses stating "and YE shall be hated of all the nations FOR MY NAME'S SAKE"... that the "YE" refers (not to US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) rather to "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka 'the wedding FEAST/SUPPER'] WAS PROMISED"... And that the "this gospel of the kingdom" (Matt24:14/26:13) is what THEY will be preaching "as a witness to all the nations" (some of its RESULTS are shown in the Rev7:9 with its parallel language!), where in my past posts I've commented about the Matt26:13 passage (about the "OLIVE OIL" and the "LAMPS LIT" for the "NIGHT WATCHES" i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" time period that "the DOTL" commences with [<--NOT NOW].)


When Jesus said, "but the END is NOT YET," I believe this speaks of "the END of the AGE" they'd asked about (which speaks to the 70th Week ONLY<--I mean, the END of that!)

 

[lamad]

[OH my! ATROCIOUS! ]

How can it be that SEAL ONE is as you say, when Jesus had stated in Luke 21:12 that the events of 70ad come "BEFORE ALL THESE [beginning of birth pangs (vv.8-11!)]", meaning, the 70ad events of vv.12-24a??

First off, Jesus NEVER SAID THAT!

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
[wars from Matthew 24 as church age events]
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. [all these also in Matthew 24 as church age events]

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Did Paul haul believers to the synagogues to be stoned? You know He did. Then Paul was brought before kings.
Where in the world did you conjure up 70 AD? "Before all these" means VERY EARLY church.

By the way, I am not saying seal one is the church; I am saying JOHN AND JESUS are saying that. It is written plain as day. But you won't get it with just a read through. Jesus asked me three questions and I could not answer them after two months of study. It was like my mind was a steep trap - CLOSED. I could not see timing. I could not see the movement of time.

I could not answer why Jesus was not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father.
I could not answer why the Holy Spirit was there in a vision seen in 95 AD.
I could not explain why Jesus was not found in the FIRST search.

I was very frustrated. I had been in the top 5% of every military school I had been in, one radar school where we lost half along the way. But I could not answer three simple questions. That is, until Jesus sent me to chapter 12 to learn that the first five verses were about how the dragon tried to kill Jesus. He said "those first five verses were a history lesson to John." That was what I needed. I can only guess my mind was thinking future and future cannot answer any of His questions. The whole vision, chapter 4 & 5, are to set the timing of the first seal. THAT IS THEIR PURPOSE!

God wanted to introduce John to the book with seven seals, because of its great importance, but He chose to start while the book was still in the hand of the Father - BEFORE JESUS rose from the dead. You can continue to think future if you chose, but as brother to brother, I am telling you that you will be wrong.

By the way, I think "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" iN CONTEXT is future: it will happen when the nations of the world send their armies at the end of the 70th week. However, God said it in a way that it would pull "double duty." The saints in 70 AD escaped because of it. But to say that these verses are ABOUT 70 AD is to pull them out of context. You and I both know Jesus was answering questions about the end of the Jewish age. (I am beginning to think you don't care if you pull verses out of context as long as you can make then say what you want. PLEASE tell me this is not true.)

 

[Oseas3]

The truth you spew is YOUR truth and only your truth. You only THINK it is God's truth.
How about this: when I am in heaven after the rapture, I will look you up and ask how your doctrine worked for you. And I will tell you how mine worked for me. Deal?

There is no truth in you, when you speak a lie, you speak of your own, like the Devil, for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now, now, even JESUS said - John 5:v. 31 : 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. How much more the devilish testimony of yourself? Is there truth in your testimony? Surely not, for GOD is the Truth. The Word is GOD, understand?

Oh am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the Truth?

I know that you hate the Truth, you hate the true Word of GOD, and you replace the Word of Truth among the true believers by devilish tares, trying to make an adept of your satanic teachings. He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. The thief comes not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

 

[lamad]

Well, for one thing, I am not conflating the MID-trib things with those of the START-of-trib things.



Personally, I don't know which way Dan9:27a reads, whether:

--"he shall confirm / strengthen the covenant [ALONG-]with the many"

[OR]

--"he shall confirm /strengthen the covenant with [/as one side of two parties] the many"



(I do think the phrase "the many" [as used elsewhere] speaks of Israel... so whether this is saying "ALONG-with them" or "AS ONE OF TWO PARTIES with them," I am unsure... I would not want to state one or the other definitively, since I'm not entirely sure which it actually means--and it does not affect the "chronology" issue either way!)



Let me just put it like this (for a couple of examples)... I believe the verses stating "and YE shall be hated of all the nations FOR MY NAME'S SAKE"... that the "YE" refers (not to US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) rather to "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka 'the wedding FEAST/SUPPER'] WAS PROMISED"... And that the "this gospel of the kingdom" (Matt24:14/26:13) is what THEY will be preaching "as a witness to all the nations" (some of its RESULTS are shown in the Rev7:9 with its parallel language!), where in my past posts I've commented about the Matt26:13 passage (about the "OLIVE OIL" and the "LAMPS LIT" for the "NIGHT WATCHES" i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" time period that "the DOTL" commences with [<--NOT NOW].)


When Jesus said, "but the END is NOT YET," I believe this speaks of "the END of the AGE" they'd asked about (which speaks to the 70th Week ONLY<--I mean, the END of that!)

I think the confirming of the covenant - what ever that means - will be done in secret. Why? Because neither John nor Jesus spoke about it. Jesus went from church age: "the end is not yet" to mentioning the end, and then jumped right to the midpoint abomination. I have often wondered why. Then in Revelation, there is only a very slight hint as to where the 70th week begins. I would be clueless except that Jesus said I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" and that He would use the same marker for the beginning, ending and midpoint.

Therefore I KNOW the week starts with the 7th seal. But where is the covenant for 7 years? John does not mention it. This is why I think it will be done in secret and why John does not even mention the Beast until chapter 13.

There is a man that saw a every extended vision of the 70th week and the rapture leading to it, when he was a heathen! He is not born again. He saw computers on desks and did not know what they were! It was before desktop days. Anyway, it was a very detailed vision. After the rapture, there was NO social media for maybe two weeks. Then, when it came back on, there was on man on every station offering help. If this man was the Beast, then it would seem he is revealed right away. I want to go back and watch that again.

Yes, I think we agree: the end of the age will be the 70th week. That will be the final 7 years of Jewish time. We as the church are only inserted into that time as a parenthesis. The rapture MUST take place to end this parenthesis, and start the Day of the Lord.

 

[lamad]

There is no truth in you, when you speak a lie, you speak of your own, like the Devil, for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now, now, even JESUS said - John 5:v. 31 : 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. How much more the devilish testimony of yourself? Is there truth in your testimony? Surely not, for GOD is the Truth. The Word is GOD, understand?

Oh am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the Truth?

I know that you hate the Truth, you hate the true Word of GOD, and you replace the Word of Truth among the true believers by devilish tares, trying to make an adept of your satanic teachings. He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. The thief comes not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

More lies and hate. You amaze me. just because you don't agree with me, you say terrible things about me. Shame on you! We are brothers in Christ.

Just so you know, I was born again when I was 7, filled with the Spirit when I was 20. Most of my life I have served our Lord. I have never doubted my salvation. I have never been sorry for that decision.

NOw, it is clear you disagree with me. So please, find a post of mine and SHOW ME where I am wrong. Can you do that? Use scripture properly understood.

For example, I say the first seals is the church sent out to make disciples. I say that because the context - chapters 4 & 5, show Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down. That happened around 32 AD. And the first thing Jesus did, having ascended, is get the book and start opening the seals.

 

[lamad]

Let me just put it like this (for a couple of examples)... I believe the verses stating "and YE shall be hated of all the nations FOR MY NAME'S SAKE"... that the "YE" refers (not to US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) rather to "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka 'the wedding FEAST/SUPPER'] WAS PROMISED"... And that the "this gospel of the kingdom" (Matt24:14/26:13) is what THEY will be preaching "as a witness to all the nations" (some of its RESULTS are shown in the Rev7:9 with its parallel language!), where in my past posts I've commented about the Matt26:13 passage (about the "OLIVE OIL" and the "LAMPS LIT" for the "NIGHT WATCHES" i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" time period that "the DOTL" commences with [<--NOT NOW].)

Are you saying that the marriage and supper will take place in the millennial kingdom?

 

[Oseas3]

More lies and hate. You amaze me. just because you don't agree with me, you say terrible things about me. Shame on you! We are brothers in Christ.

Just so you know, I was born again when I was 7, filled with the Spirit when I was 20. Most of my life I have served our Lord. I have never doubted my salvation. I have never been sorry for that decision.

NOw, it is clear you disagree with me. So please, find a post of mine and SHOW ME where I am wrong. Can you do that? Use scripture properly understood.

For example, I say the first seals is the church sent out to make disciples. I say that because the context - chapters 4 & 5, show Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down. That happened around 32 AD. And the first thing Jesus did, having ascended, is get the book and start opening the seals.

Your false premises, result or incur false conclusions. It is very sad what you do trying to adapt the Word of God to interpretations not revealed by the Holy Spirit, but by speculations, and presumptions, and conjectures, and imaginations, and opinions, and so on.

There is no truth in you, when you speak a lie, you speak of your own, like the Devil, for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Are you saying that the marriage and supper will take place in the millennial kingdom?

No, I am not.


Rather, I'm saying that...

--"the MARRIAGE" (pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]") and taking place IN HEAVEN (and related to the "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" word, like in 1Th4:17 "and SO shall WE ever be WITH [G4862] the Lord"--at the point in time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")

is DISTINCT FROM

--"the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES" (pertaining to the "guests [PLURAL]," and the "10 [or 5] VirginS/BridesmaidS [PLURAL]," etc... who He is NOT coming "TO MARRY"[Lk12:36 - "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]!], this is what takes place upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and IS "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (at least its inauguration)... and related to the "with [G3326 - ACCOMPANYING] Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" that the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" will do, per Matt25:10 and context, plus its parallels])




Revelation 19:7 and Revelation 19:9 distinguish these also.


"The BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" (the ONE pertaining to "the MARRIAGE" itself [IN HEAVEN]) is not "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" (having been invited to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER / earthly MK age)... each of these are "saved" persons... They just have "come to faith" at distinct time-periods (whether "NOW"/"in this PRESENT age [singular]" or THEN/in the Trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [etc])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

First off, Jesus NEVER SAID THAT!

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
[wars from Matthew 24 as church age events]
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. [all these also in Matthew 24 as church age events]

Disagree.

I believe the "chronology' issues prove this [ALL of Matthew 24] to be describing what FOLLOWS "our Rapture" (i.e. they are events within the Trib yrs).

Seal #2 being "WARS" of which Ezekiel 38-39 is a PART (comp. Ezek38:21b-22a "sword [against his brother / kill one another]"... and I already showed how Ezek39:7's wording is parallel to the wording in Gen45:1[6] re: what Joseph did there, in his second year of his "SEVEN YEAR FAMINE" [a picture/type of the 7-yr trib], etc...)

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Did Paul haul believers to the synagogues to be stoned? You know He did. Then Paul was brought before kings.
Where in the world did you conjure up 70 AD? "Before all these" means VERY EARLY church.

"BEFORE ALL" of the things that vv.8-11 had JUST DESCRIBED (Luke21:8-11 EQUALS Matt24:4-8 EQUALS Mark13:5-8! SAME ITEMS!)

So, "BEFORE" (SEQUENTIALLY *PRIOR TO* / *BEFORE*) those things described in vv.8-11 can take place, the next things in the text (vv.12-24a) must come *BEFORE* / *PRIOR TO* those!


The reason most ppl overlook this, is because Lk21:8-11 doesn't NAME/LABEL them like the Matt24 and Mk13 passages do (aka "the beginning of birth pangs"), it only DESCRIBES them... but they are the SAME EVENTS... and v.12 says that certain OTHER THINGS must take place "BEFORE / PRIOR TO" them (namely, the events surrounding 70ad, referred to in vv.12-24a!<--this spans-of-time PRECEDES the BEGINNING of birth pangs... [!] Thus SEAL #1 / the BEGINNING POINT of birth pangs simply CANNOT be anything in 32ad.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

By the way, I think "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" iN CONTEXT is future: it will happen when the nations of the world send their armies at the end of the 70th week. However, God said it in a way that it would pull "double duty." The saints in 70 AD escaped because of it. But to say that these verses are ABOUT 70 AD is to pull them out of context. You and I both know Jesus was answering questions about the end of the Jewish age. (I am beginning to think you don't care if you pull verses out of context as long as you can make then say what you want. PLEASE tell me this is not true.)

I believe the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Luke 21:23,20 was in the 70ad events; but that the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Matt24 is in the "far-future" Trib events... being completely *distinct* events, though at some points sounding very similar.

But to say that these verses are ABOUT 70 AD is to pull them out of context. You and I both know Jesus was answering questions about the end of the Jewish age.

Not in Luke 21.

The passage in Lk21 is not introduced in such a way, though Jesus does cover both near and far-future events in this Lk21 chpt (whereas Matt24 / Mk13 only cover the far-future Trib years).

Lk21:12-24a is the only part of the Olivet Discourse covering the events surrounding 70ad (with vv.8-11 being PARALLEL EVENTS to that of Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 "beginning of birth PANGS"); again, with v.12 saying that "PRIOR TO" those "PANGS," the 70ad events must take place first.

Jesus said pretty much the same thing (about the events surrounding 70ad) when He SAID what He did on Palm Sunday (the very day the "69 Weeks" total were concluded), in His words in Lk19:41-44... Notice His words were directed to "THE CITY" (which is what the prophecy in Dan9:24+ is concerning), and corresponds with the wording in both Matt22:7 and Lk21:23,20[24] "and wrath upon this people" (whereas the "far-future" things involves ALSO the whole world, but including "they which be in Judaea" also, who will be the ones supposed to "FLEE" at that Mid-point [Rev12:6,14], yet future).

Anyway, enough for tonight... = )

 

[ewq1938]

And the first thing Jesus did, having ascended, is get the book and start opening the seals.

I think so too.

 

[Oseas3]

What prevails is the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD, understand? This is what the Spirit of

GOD says, and the Spirit (not the letter) says that He, the Spirit of GOD, is a devouring FIRE,

a consuming FIRE.


Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Is.33:14



Revelation 11:v.15 to 18

15 - The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (world of the Devil) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
...
18 - And the nations were (will be) angry, and thy wrath (GOD's wrath) is come, ...and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



Luke 20:v.35-36

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


Revelation 5:v. 10

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him) and LORD of lords

 

[lamad]

I believe the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Luke 21:23,20 was in the 70ad events; but that the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Matt24 is in the "far-future" Trib events... being completely *distinct* events, though at some points sounding very similar.



Not in Luke 21.

The passage in Lk21 is not introduced in such a way, though Jesus does cover both near and far-future events in this Lk21 chpt (whereas Matt24 / Mk13 only cover the far-future Trib years).

Lk21:12-24a is the only part of the Olivet Discourse covering the events surrounding 70ad (with vv.8-11 being PARALLEL EVENTS to that of Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 "beginning of birth PANGS"); again, with v.12 saying that "PRIOR TO" those "PANGS," the 70ad events must take place first.

Jesus said pretty much the same thing (about the events surrounding 70ad) when He SAID what He did on Palm Sunday (the very day the "69 Weeks" total were concluded), in His words in Lk19:41-44... Notice His words were directed to "THE CITY" (which is what the prophecy in Dan9:24+ is concerning), and corresponds with the wording in both Matt22:7 and Lk21:23,20[24] "and wrath upon this people" (whereas the "far-future" things involves ALSO the whole world, but including "they which be in Judaea" also, who will be the ones supposed to "FLEE" at that Mid-point [Rev12:6,14], yet future).

Anyway, enough for tonight... = )

I personally think they all heard the SAME Olivet discourse, but the Holy Spirit caused Luke to emphasize one part of it, and Matthew and Mark to emphasize another part. My point was, IN THE FUTURE the city will be surrounded and attacked just as it was in 70 AD, but this time Jesus will come just in the nick of time. However, I must agree to at lease some of it in Luke seems to point to 70 AD.

Luke 21:
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
(Luke left this part out: the mount of Olives and the disciples asking him privately.)
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

70 AD only?
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

We know from Zech. that the city will be taken, at least some of it, and people taken as slaves near the end of the 70th week. But will there be time before Christ comes to send them into all nations?

Matt 24:
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

In other words, I don't think Jesus gave this same discourse twice within a few minutes of each other. I think for the most part I agree with you. Our disagreement may be that I think Jerusalem will be surrounded again.

 

[lamad]

Seal #2 being "WARS" of which Ezekiel 38-39 is a PART (comp. Ezek38:21b-22a "sword [against his brother / kill one another]"... and I already showed how Ezek39:7's wording is parallel to the wording in Gen45:1[6] re: what Joseph did there, in his second year of his "SEVEN YEAR FAMINE" [a picture/type of the 7-yr trib], etc...)

Of course you are free to believe anything. But you are pulling seal 2 out of context. You are 2000 years off in your theories on these first seals. I understand, it is 2000 years since the first readers got to read John's letter. We need to read it as if we were in one of those 7 churches and the time was 95 AD. Somehow I just cannot picture one reader saying to another: "Don't worry about these things; these things are not for now, but for 2000 years from now!"

Try and find ANY HINT from 4:1 on that John left early church time and jumped 2000 years. It is simply NOT THERE. We were find a long period of time is at the 5th seal. They were told judgment would not come until the final church age martyr. I think you need to mediate on that. For days I pondered "should be killed as they were." Some were fed to lions, some beheaded, some crucified. Their manner of being put to death all different. I knew it could not mean how each was put to death. I did not hear a voice at this time, but suddenly I knew what it was saying; "killed as they were" as CHURCH AGE martyrs. The beheaded of the days of GT will be a different group.

So your 2000 years is NOT in chapter 5 or before the first seal, it is at the 5th seal.

Just follow the text!
Jesus not seen (Because John is seeing the throne room while Jesus is still on earth.)
The Holy Spirit seen (in 95 AD we would expect Him to be having been sent down.)
Jesus NOT found worthy (because at this moment in time He and not yet risen from the dead.)
Jesus FOUND worthy (because He just rose from the dead, PREVAILING over death.)
Jesus suddenly appears in heaven (He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.)
Jesus sends down the Holy Spirit (He said as soon as He would ascend He would send Him down.)
Jesus takes the book
Jesus opens the first seals
Seal 5 says a LONG wait until the final martyr is killed.

Where can you find that what I have written is NOT what John wrote?

Since your preconceived theiries are so strong, try answering the questions He asked me. Imagine (Your's seems to work very well) Jesus asking YOU these questions.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Grace to find the right answers! Oh, He said this first:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.