When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, it is true, after the church has departed, THEN the man of sin will be revealed. But you are mistaken in tying that verse in with John being caught up to heaven. Why not drop such sloppy exegesis and just believe what John is saying: HE was caught up in 95 AD. It has nothing to do with the church being caught up. EVERY posttribber and prewrather KNOWS THIS. Why don't you know it?

You apparently did not read what I'd put, very carefully.

I was pointing out how the FIRST time the "voice, as of a trumpet" spoke to John (1:10-16), Jesus (who identifies Himself there, as "the FIRST and the LAST") was "in the midst of the 7 candlesticks"...

... and then the next time the "voice, as a trumpet" spoke to John (4:1), He is saying "Come UP [HERE]!" (to "where" HE is now shown to be located... and eventually John sees Him "standing in the midst of the throne... and in the midst of the 24 elders"; i.e. a CHANGE of location has occurred... RE: JESUS [<--I wasn't talking about "John" at that moment, meaning, when the VOICE spoke to him--the VOICE is UP THERE, whereas John was hearing it, while still DOWN ON THE EARTH... I've said nothing about "John=rapture"... I believe he's going to be shown what unfolds FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and he's only just taking the same path that the "24 elders" have already traversed coz he sees them already sitting on "THRONES" in this scene, and already wearing "stephanon/crowns"]).

This does NOT mean I don't believe He had already been "SEATED / SITTING at the right hand of the Father," no... He HAD. But now He is seen "STANDING" (Isa3:13 "STAND to JUDGE"! [and Lam2:3-4 parallel the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a]). This is because a "change" in scenes has taken place, just here.


____________

Besides the things I've put in this thread...

There's also what I've put in other threads... about how Lk21:12 is basically saying that "BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth PANGS, just described in vv.8-11] take place, BEFORE those[!], the 70ad events must come to pass FIRST [BEFORE the BoBPs!], referring to the events [70ad] described in vv.12-24a, including "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"...

(so this SEQUENCE is ALSO what Matt22:7 [70ad events] and THEN Matt22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" is showing, where v.8=Rev1:1[4:1 and 7:3 ],... so He's "saying" these things ['TO SHOW UNTO'], and far-future the "144,000" will come to the point that they "hear" it [and I don't think they'll be the ONLY "servants" who will... but AT LEAST them! ])

 

[lamad]

In Post #39, I'd put the following LINK to another thread post...

Post #64 - https://christianchat.com/threads/revelation-study.198143/post-4522228

... where there is a 9:15-min video telling about how:

[basically, in my words...]

--of the 24 [total] manuscripts available (of the Greek) of Revelation chpt 5 [and VERSE 9 IN PARTICULAR], 23 of them have it as "US [G2248 - hemas]" and only ONE manuscript (the only other one) leaves it blank [/untranslated]. (That ONE manuscript [of 24 total manuscripts (Rev5)] that leaves it blank/untranslated is the "Codex Alexandrinus".)

[end quoting past post excerpt]



I was wondering if you could read that Post #64 (at LINK ^ ), LISTEN to the video [ignore the part where he stumbles over his words briefly, lol], and tell me what [of the info supplied therein] that it is that you DISAGREE with in that video. It would really help me out. = )

After watching the video up to a certain point, I stopped it. I just found this on the web:

A question was asked:

Some translations of this scripture use the pronoun "us" but other ones use the pronoun "them". The use actually changes what is going on prior to this scripture in terms of who is singing the new song. Which pronoun is the correct one in this verse?

KJV: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
NASB: You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.​

The first answer:
Of the Greek MSS, those that have the reading in Rev 5:10 "them" are (from UBS5): Sinaiticus, A, 205, 209, 1006, 1611, 1841, 2050, 2053, 2344, 2351; of the Byzantine texts: 046. There are also several Latin Vulgate MSS, Syriac MSS, Coptic, & Armenian. Of the Church Fathers: Andrew, Cyprian, Maternus.
There are no Greek MSS that have the reading "us" but some Latin Vulgate texts, one Coptic text and a few Church Fathers do have it.
Of the compiled and edited texts, the following have "them": NA28, UBS5, Wescott & Hort, Majority Text, Byzantine Text (Robinson et al), SBL, GNT by Jongkind et al (2017), F35 by W Pickering, Orthodox Text.
The only exception is the Textus Receptus and the Latin Vulgate which is another example of how much the Vulgate influenced the Textus Receptus (the basis for the KJV), despite the absence of such a reading in any Greek MSS.
Therefore, there is almost no evidence for the reading "us", except in the Latin Vulgate and those traditions that following it.
Here is a picture of the actual verse in Codex Sinaiticus with the "them" circled.

This answer seems to totally disagree with the video.

It would be fun to research this in depth and FIND all these manuscripts and read them - that is IF I could read Greek!

It would seem George Eldon Ladd said "if that is really "us" it must refer to the church..." Or something close.

Question: This is right after Jesus rose from the dead and ascended. Remember that when He raised from the dead, He also raised "many" of the old saints? (OT saints). Is it possible these 24 elders are those whom Jesus raised?

It is not a critical text for me because I am sure the rapture will take place after the 5th seal martyrs of the church age.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

After watching the video up to a certain point, I stopped it. I just found this on the web:

A question was asked:

Some translations of this scripture use the pronoun "us" but other ones use the pronoun "them". The use actually changes what is going on prior to this scripture in terms of who is singing the new song. Which pronoun is the correct one in this verse?

KJV: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
NASB: You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.

Why in the world, after I went to great lengths to point out "[US] IN VERSE 9 [!]", why you show me the manuscripts of verse 10??

I'm not pointing out the facts of the manuscripts available ON VERSE 10... but the ones available ON VERSE 9!

23 of the 24 [total] available manuscripts OF VERSE 9, show it to be "US," and the other manuscript LEAVES IT BLANK / UNTRANSLATED"... and some scholars believe it was accidentally left blank (by the scribe/copyist) because it was at the break from the bottom line to the next line at the top, so accidentally "dropped";




...as for v.10, there are indeed variants, and also some translators wanted to make the two verses "agree" and thus changed it to reflect agreement. [ ]... But it doesn't matter if v.10 says "they," coz that *can* be explained by "antiphonal singing" (as in OT passages)... esp. since more and more "voices" are ADDED the further down the passage one reads.





But MY point has to do with VERSE 9! ...and the point of the video you only watched part way through... likely missing the point ABOUT VERSE 9! ... is: ONLY 24 mss are available ON VERSE 9, and 23 of them say "US" (in verse 9!), whereas the other mss (the ONLY OTHER ONE) LEAVES IT BLANK / UNTRANSLATED"!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This answer seems to totally disagree with the video.

The video speaker was NOT disagreeing that v.10 (the image you showed, with the circling) indeed has variants (meaning, some say "us" some say "they")... His point was ABOUT VERSE 9 !



[23 of the 24 (total) available mss ON VERSE 9 have it as "US," and the other one mss LEAVES IT BLANK / UNTRANSLATED]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

quoting Joseph Seiss:

"Some critics and expositors have rejected this ήμᾱς [hēmas] (us), for the reason that it is omitted in the Codex Alexandrinus, and in the Ethiopic version; though the latter is not much more than a loose paraphrase. The Codex Sinaiticus, however, which was discovered in 1860, and which is of equal antiquity and authority with the Codex Alexandrinus, contains it. The Codex Basilianus, in the Vatican, contains it. The Latin, Coptic or Memphitic, and Armenian, which are of great value, contain it. And so do all other manuscripts and versions. And to discredit it simply and only because it does not appear in that one single Codex of Alexandria, is most unreasonable and unjust to the weight of authority for its retention."

--Joseph Seiss; The Apocalypse: Lectures on the Book of Revelation

[bold and underline mine]


____________


[Note: the numbers MAY have been 23 and 22... instead of 24 and 23, as I'd said (not 100% sure)... I'd have to go look at my notes to be sure, and to chk what the video speaker was saying precisely, with regard to the exact numbers... ]

 

[lamad]

quoting Joseph Seiss:

"Some critics and expositors have rejected this ήμᾱς [hēmas] (us), for the reason that it is omitted in the Codex Alexandrinus, and in the Ethiopic version; though the latter is not much more than a loose paraphrase. The Codex Sinaiticus, however, which was discovered in 1860, and which is of equal antiquity and authority with the Codex Alexandrinus, contains it. The Codex Basilianus, in the Vatican, contains it. The Latin, Coptic or Memphitic, and Armenian, which are of great value, contain it. And so do all other manuscripts and versions. And to discredit it simply and only because it does not appear in that one single Codex of Alexandria, is most unreasonable and unjust to the weight of authority for its retention."

--Joseph Seiss; The Apocalypse: Lectures on the Book of Revelation

[bold and underline mine]


____________


[Note: the numbers MAY have been 23 and 22... instead of 24 and 23, as I'd said (not 100% sure)... I'd have to go look at my notes to be sure, and to chk what the video speaker was saying precisely, with regard to the exact numbers... ]

In thinking of the timing of Rev. 5, the word "us" is really no problem at all. In 5:5 Jesus "prevailed" over death: This pinpoints when Jesus rose from the dead. It is also when He raised "many" of the OT saints (Matthew 27). I submit He raised "elders." Since Jesus blood saved them in the Old, just as it has saved us in the New, of course they could sing that song. The 24 elders singing well could be those of the OT that Jesus rose up.

The only problem this brings is, who are the 24 in chapter 4 BEFORE Jesus rose. Perhaps they were stand-ins waiting for Jesus to rise and then the elders to rise.

Since the 5th seal is still church age I cannot see that the elders make a difference.

 

[lamad]

Why in the world, after I went to great lengths to point out "[US] IN VERSE 9 [!]", why you show me the manuscripts of verse 10??

I'm not pointing out the facts of the manuscripts available ON VERSE 10... but the ones available ON VERSE 9!

23 of the 24 [total] available manuscripts OF VERSE 9, show it to be "US," and the other manuscript LEAVES IT BLANK / UNTRANSLATED"... and some scholars believe it was accidentally left blank (by the scribe/copyist) because it was at the break from the bottom line to the next line at the top, so accidentally "dropped";




...as for v.10, there are indeed variants, and also some translators wanted to make the two verses "agree" and thus changed it to reflect agreement. [ ]... But it doesn't matter if v.10 says "they," coz that *can* be explained by "antiphonal singing" (as in OT passages)... esp. since more and more "voices" are ADDED the further down the passage one reads.





But MY point has to do with VERSE 9! ...and the point of the video you only watched part way through... likely missing the point ABOUT VERSE 9! ... is: ONLY 24 mss are available ON VERSE 9, and 23 of them say "US" (in verse 9!), whereas the other mss (the ONLY OTHER ONE) LEAVES IT BLANK / UNTRANSLATED"!

I got it. I have not studied this as much as you have.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Please, be my guest! Find ONE USE of what here that represents evil. If you think John would use white this way 16 times, then once for evil, I cannot change your thinking.

Here's the thing...

(I think) we agree that the "SEALS" are EQUIVALENT TO "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of.

--Paul informs us that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL *ARRIVES* like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...

--Jesus had said (of those BoBPs [PLURAL]) that the FIRST ONE IS: "take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you [the 'you' of this text being: 'those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom' WAS PROMISED (aka see Acts 1:6)]. FOR MANY shall come IN MY NAME, saying, 'I AM THE CHRIST' and shall *deceive* many"... IOW, there will be MANY who come in His name... but Jesus is warning about "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100]" in particular, AS the FIRST "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more that will follow on from that FIRST ONE... (and he's so deceptive... that he's described as "white"... and with a "BOW" which often *means* deception, see ); It's like this... just because "MANY" will come IN "HIS NAME" and say "I AM THE CHRIST"... well, what if we simply searched all other Scriptures using THOSE TERMS and determined, as a result, that *this ONE TIME* cannot be speaking OF ANYONE ELSE other than JESUS HIMSELF, like all the OTHER occurrences do!... well, how reasonable would that be...? (when we're talking about "lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you, FOR MANY will come, saying...")

--Paul's 2Th2:9a "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" (in the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period that kicks-off "the DOTL" time-period [Dan7:7 "IN THE NIGHT," etc]) corresponds with Daniel 9:27a[26b's] "prince THAT SHALL COME" (the "he,he,he" of Dan9:27 *IS* the "who,who,who" of 2Th2!)... so he "comes" at the START of the "7-yrs" not its MIDDLE (the 2:4 thing!)... I believe the "AND THEN [kai tote]" refers to his being "revealed" as an immediate "aftermath" of "our Rapture / THE Departure"... hence the need for that "SNATCH"-action! ]

--I could say more, but this is sufficient for one post... = )

 

[lamad]

You apparently did not read what I'd put, very carefully.

I was pointing out how the FIRST time the "voice, as of a trumpet" spoke to John (1:10-16), Jesus (who identifies Himself there, as "the FIRST and the LAST") was "in the midst of the 7 candlesticks"...

... and then the next time the "voice, as a trumpet" spoke to John (4:1), He is saying "Come UP [HERE]!" (to "where" HE is now shown to be located... and eventually John sees Him "standing in the midst of the throne... and in the midst of the 24 elders"; i.e. a CHANGE of location has occurred... RE: JESUS [<--I wasn't talking about "John" at that moment, meaning, when the VOICE spoke to him--the VOICE is UP THERE, whereas John was hearing it, while still DOWN ON THE EARTH... I've said nothing about "John=rapture"... I believe he's going to be shown what unfolds FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and he's only just taking the same path that the "24 elders" have already traversed coz he sees them already sitting on "THRONES" in this scene, and already wearing "stephanon/crowns"]).

This does NOT mean I don't believe He had already been "SEATED / SITTING at the right hand of the Father," no... He HAD. But now He is seen "STANDING" (Isa3:13 "STAND to JUDGE"! [and Lam2:3-4 parallel the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a]). This is because a "change" in scenes has taken place, just here.


____________

Besides the things I've put in this thread...

There's also what I've put in other threads... about how Lk21:12 is basically saying that "BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth PANGS, just described in vv.8-11] take place, BEFORE those[!], the 70ad events must come to pass FIRST [BEFORE the BoBPs!], referring to the events [70ad] described in vv.12-24a, including "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"...

(so this SEQUENCE is ALSO what Matt22:7 [70ad events] and THEN Matt22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" is showing, where v.8=Rev1:1[4:1 and 7:3 ],... so He's "saying" these things ['TO SHOW UNTO'], and far-future the "144,000" will come to the point that they "hear" it [and I don't think they'll be the ONLY "servants" who will... but AT LEAST them! ])

In truth, "very carefully" is the ONLY way someone can make sense of your posts! ;-) They are exceedingly difficult to decipher.

I really don't care that His voice sounded like a trumpet! It is non-essential to what He said.

and eventually John sees Him "standing in the midst of the throne... and in the midst of the 24 elders"; i.e. a CHANGE of location has occurred

Finally I see what you are doing: you jumped from Jesus speaking to John in 95 AD to Jesus suddenly appearing in the throne room after His ascension from INSIDE the VISION! In other words, you are mixing REAL from VISION.

Why not rather mix vision with vision: in chapter 4 Jesus was not there. There is scriptural proof why: He was on the earth and under the earth.

But now He is seen "STANDING"

Sorry, but you are a country mile off from the intent of the Author! He is standing because He JUST ARRIVED after telling Mary not to hold onto Him! Do you imagine He is in "judgment" mode the instant He ascended back "home?"

For further proof, the martyrs of the church age at seal 5 are crying out WHEN will judgment come. And they are told them must wait for judgment to start until the very last martyr. Put two and two together: the rapture of the church will END the church age making some martyr the LAST martyr. And John's next verse starts judgment: The Day of the Lord at the 6th seal.

IOW, John and Jesus are at the church just sent out (Go and make disciples) at the first seal, and you are lost in our future at that seal.

I'm so glad you mentioned "birth pains."


Matthew 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [The end is not yet: i am not yet talking about end times. I'm still in the church age.]

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. [Birth Pains]


3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. [WAR]

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. [FAMINE]

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. [Pestilence]


If the wars, famines and pestilences in the Olivet Discourse is during the church age, why do you insist the parallel seals must be AFTER the church age into the end times? You are inconsistent.

 

[lamad]

Here's the thing...

(I think) we agree that the "SEALS" are EQUIVALENT TO "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of.

--Paul informs us that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL *ARRIVES* like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...

--Jesus had said (of those BoBPs [PLURAL]) that the FIRST ONE IS: "take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you [the 'you' of this text being: 'those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom' WAS PROMISED (aka see Acts 1:6)]. FOR MANY shall come IN MY NAME, saying, 'I AM THE CHRIST' and shall *deceive* many"... IOW, there will be MANY who come in His name... but Jesus is warning about "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100]" in particular, AS the FIRST "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more that will follow on from that FIRST ONE... (and he's so deceptive... that he's described as "white"... and with a "BOW" which often *means* deception, see ); It's like this... just because "MANY" will come IN "HIS NAME" and say "I AM THE CHRIST"... well, what if we simply searched all other Scriptures using THOSE TERMS and determined, as a result, that *this ONE TIME* cannot be speaking OF ANYONE ELSE other than JESUS HIMSELF, like all the OTHER occurrences do!... well, how reasonable would that be...? (when we're talking about "lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you, FOR MANY will come, saying...")

--Paul's 2Th2:9a "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" (in the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period that kicks-off "the DOTL" time-period [Dan7:7 "IN THE NIGHT," etc]) corresponds with Daniel 9:27a[26b's] "prince THAT SHALL COME" (the "he,he,he" of Dan9:27 *IS* the "who,who,who" of 2Th2!)... so he "comes" at the START of the "7-yrs" not its MIDDLE (the 2:4 thing!)... I believe the "AND THEN [kai tote]" refers to his being "revealed" as an immediate "aftermath" of "our Rapture / THE Departure"... hence the need for that "SNATCH"-action! ]

--I could say more, but this is sufficient for one post... = )

(I think) we agree that the "SEALS" are EQUIVALENT TO "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of.

Hallelujah! But only up to the 5th seal martyrs of the church age.
Paul informs us that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL *ARRIVES* like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I don't think I would say this is a singular pain. Everyone knows that childbirth is pain after pain - but known as the pain of childbirth.

the FIRST ONE IS: "take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you

24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Sorry, but I would have to label this is MYTH. You stretched until it broke. If, and it is a big if, Jesus put the "pains" in any kind of order then WAR would be the first pain, as it was labeled first. In Revelation that would be the Red Horse and rider (limited to 1/4 the earth). Where did both world wars start? In that 1/4th!

Jesus is in the "the end is not yet" part meaning the church age, proving that seal 2 is church age, and in verse 5 showing us that during the church age many will come to deceive. But the CERTAIN ONE as you said will not be revealed AS that certain one until the midpoint of the week - and John an Jesus is a long way from even starting the week. You seem way to eager to jump ahead of John!

but Jesus is warning about "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100]" in particular, AS the FIRST "birth PANG [SINGULAR]

Sorry, but you missed it yet again. The Greek behind "sorrows" (birth pain) is PLURAL. He is not singling out a single pain, He is speaking of all of them together, but wars, rumors of wars, famines and pestilences are at the beginning which is CHURCH AGE. Why are you in such a hurry to find the man of sin? John and Jesus are still in the church age: "The end is not yet" and seal 5 as church age saints. Look, from Jesus opening the first seal when He ascended, going through the seals, 1-5, seal 5 is the first hint of a long wait for another seal - that wait being the church age.

he's so deceptive... that he's described as "white"

Wait! WHOA BACK! He did not get to choose His color! Give me a color break! The first horse is white because He is righteous! It was opened as soon as Jesus ascended (the end is not yet) and sent the Holy Spirit down. If you wish to see how God colored the beast, read ahead: FIERY RED! You have jumped to so many wrong conclusions perhaps you should tryout for the long jump or high jump in the Olympics!

a "BOW" which often *means* deception, I think you like to BEND the truth of scripture....

Sorry, just ONE MORE HUGE stretch or myth. It is the Greek TOXON meaning poison.

It's like this... just because "MANY" will come IN "HIS NAME" and say "I AM THE CHRIST"... well, what if we simply searched all other Scriptures using THOSE TERMS and determined, as a result, that *this ONE TIME* cannot be speaking OF ANYONE ELSE other than JESUS HIMSELF, like all the OTHER occurrences do!... well, how reasonable would that be...? (when we're talking about "lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you, FOR MANY will come, saying...")

This makes very little sense. Surely you can do better. Rewrite!

--Paul's 2Th2:9a "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" (in the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period that kicks-off "the DOTL

so he "comes" at the START of the "7-yrs" not its MIDDLE

Wow. Wrong again! John shows the revealing or right after in Rev. 13 and we are in the first seals of the church age. Another HUGE jump into the future. SLOW DOWN! Jesus said, the end is not yet. Please, BELIEVE HIM.

Perhaps you don't know this because it is not written, but in 11:1-2 where the first 42 months are mentioned? I asked God about that. It is the man of sin arriving in Jerusalem just days before He will enter the temple and be revealed. He comes with a gentile army who will trample the city. I cannot prove this, but then, no one can disprove it. As usual when God teaches, it makes prefect sense.

We all know that the man of sin will confirm a covenant for 7 years, but since neither John nor Jesus mentioned it, my guess is it will be done behind closed doors so the world will not know. His revealing when all will know WHO, will be as Paul said, when he enters the temple.

He does not kick off the Day of the Lord! He confirms the 70th week - we can guess - a 7 year time.

He may well "come" at the beginning of the week to confirm a covenant but NO ONE WILL KNOW. Neither John nor Jesus mentions it. It it was out in the open, then his revealing would not be 3.5 years later in the temple.

"AND THEN [kai tote]" refers to his being "revealed" as an immediate "aftermath" of "our Rapture

"... taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed.. It does seem that way, but often there are things that happen in other scriptures before the "then."

I think Paul have given us the time of the abomination: it is when the man of sin enters the temple. The daily sacrifices must stop until the temple can be cleansed. That places his revealing as the dividing point of the week and that fits perfect with John seeing Him rise in chapter 13.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Wait! WHOA BACK! He did not get to choose His color!

Where did I say he chose his color?

I'm saying JESUS is telling us his color... [and it is something "deceptive"! (LOOKING *GENUINE* but ISN'T!)]

...and had also already said, "lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you ['you' not being 'US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY,' here ]" (Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 the VERY FIRST THING Jesus lists in His mentioning of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]")... and which is CONSISTENT with:

--Daniel 9:27a/26b ("for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"... not merely 3.5!)

--2Th2:[7b]8a,9a (distinct from v.4! Where v.9a CORRESPONDS with Dan9:26b/27a!)



____________

Besides, "birth PANGS" relate to Israel (see for example Isaiah 26:12-,14-21, esp vv.17,18 in a context re: Israel)



"BOW" often means "deception" (as does "arrows" in places). So this correlates in a great many ways; and not only that, "fits" with Luke 21:12 saying that the "BoBPs" won't commence until the 70ad events come [first] BEFORE ALL [OF THEM]!






[when one considers that "kings [go/went] out to battle" at a VERY SPECIFIC time/day (think: Rev19 / Jesus), one can see that the scene (in the throne room) shown back in Rev4-5 is coming EXACTLY "2520 days" prior!]

 

[lamad]

Where did I say he chose his color?

I'm saying JESUS is telling us his color... [and it is something "deceptive"! (LOOKING *GENUINE* but ISN'T!)]

...and had also already said, "lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you ['you' not being 'US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY,' here ]" (Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 the VERY FIRST THING Jesus lists in His mentioning of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]")... and which is CONSISTENT with:

--Daniel 9:27a/26b ("for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"... not merely 3.5!)

--2Th2:[7b]8a,9a (distinct from v.4! Where v.9a CORRESPONDS with Dan9:26b/27a!)



____________

Besides, "birth PANGS" relate to Israel (see for example Isaiah 26:12-,14-21, esp vv.17,18 in a context re: Israel)



"BOW" often means "deception" (as does "arrows" in places). So this correlates in a great many ways; and not only that, "fits" with Luke 21:12 saying that the "BoBPs" won't commence until the 70ad events come [first] BEFORE ALL [OF THEM]!






[when one considers that "kings [go/went] out to battle" at a VERY SPECIFIC time/day (think: Rev19 / Jesus), one can see that the scene (in the throne room) shown back in Rev4-5 is coming EXACTLY "2520 days" prior!]

JESUS is telling us his color... [and it is something "deceptive"!

Sorry, that disagrees with his color as fiery red. Anyway, please show something from 6:1-2 or the context that would give any hint that this is the Antichrist. IOW prove this is not your imagination at work! Prove by scripture that there is anything in his description that even hints of deception. Prove by context that this is in our future.

How will you overcome the context?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

First, you have never answered the question as to why He was not found in the search that ended in failure. My answer is simple: He had not yet risen from the dead. In verse 5, we read that He "prevailed" to become worthy. How do YOU read that? I think it is telling us that he just prevailed over death by rising from the dead. It makes sense and it fits, for the next thing John saw was Jesus appearing back in the throne room after His ascension. And then He sent the Holy Spirit down. All this Pinpoints the time He got the book.

You have a lot of scripture here to overcome to prove your theory. By the way, where do you find the idea that white is deceptive? Which of the other 16 uses of white would you use to prove that?

and had also already said, "lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you

No, I think YOU said that! you picked one of several definitions. The truth is, that exact word was used 233 times in the KJV as a singular masculine pronoun.

. Let's look at some.

Mat 12:19 - He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man G5100 hear his voice in the streets.

Mat 12:47 - Then one G5100 said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 16:24 - Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man G5100 will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 21:3 - And if any man G5100 say ought G5100 unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

Mat 21:33 - Hear another parable: There was a certain G5100 householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

Mat 22:24 - Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man G5100 die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

Mat 24:4 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man G5100 deceive you.

If we look at it again:
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I don't think "a certain man" fits this context as well as "no man." Since there are many, we don't want ANY of them to deceive us! Anyway, common sense tells us the certain one will be the LAST one.

Daniel 9:27a/26b ("for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"... not merely 3.5!)

Yes, there will be a whole 7 years. But verse 27 tells us that it will be divided into two halves by an event that will stop the daily sacrifices. My friend, confirming a covenant may be what STARTS the daily sacrifices, not end them. Your theory does not fit.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Paul says (in 1Th5:2-3) that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of the *ARRIVAL* of the "DOTL" time-period... like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...


This corresponds perfectly with what Jesus had said in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 (in the section describing what Jesus calls "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]")...

...and that Matt24:4/Mk13:5 is *in contrast to* the "FOR MANY shall come in My name, saying...". Why is Jesus CONTRASTING these, but to draw att'n to the FIRST THING (which ^^ *matches* Dan7:7's "IN THE NIGHT" thing, speaking of "diverse" beast, and the "another little horn [/king, per vv.20,21,24,25]" came up, and "a MOUTH speaking great things" (like in Rev13:5-7,1 the "MOUTH" part, which I believe speaks of the "individual/person" aspect of the [broader] "beast [system / governance / entity]" thing of v.1 [Rev13:1]).

Just because certain things are shown to occur (with this person) in the SECOND HALF, does not mean that he's doing nothing in the FIRST HALF (of the seven years).





[by the way, I'm not equating "the red DRAGON [/Satan]" with "the man of sin" (/human person / king / prince / leader / etc)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT:

[by the way, I'm not equating "the red DRAGON [/Satan]" with "the man of sin" (/human person / king / prince / leader / etc), though the latter certainly comes/ARRIVES "after [in accordance with] the working of Satan, with all power and LYING wonders..."<--and that "COMING" *IS* at the START of the seven years! (2Th2:9a / Dan9:27a/26b !)]



["Satan himself is transformed into..." ... WHAT? (and WHY?!)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, there will be a whole 7 years. But verse 27 tells us that it will be divided into two halves by an event that will stop the daily sacrifices. My friend, confirming a covenant may be what STARTS the daily sacrifices, not end them. Your theory does not fit.

Where did I say that??



2Th2:4 is at MID-trib (just like Dan9:27b).

That's not the same thing as 2Th2:9a / Dan9:27a[26b].

I disagree that he is "revealed" at MID-trib.

Rather, immediately in the "aftermath" of "OUR RAPTURE / THE DEPARTURE" (per 2Th2:7b-8a and how the wording here is PARALLEL to the wording of Lam2:3-4 in the midst of "wrath" words [bearing in mind, Hab1:6,12])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT:

Rather, immediately in the "aftermath" of "OUR RAPTURE / THE DEPARTURE" (per 2Th2:7b-8a [kai tote!] and how the wording here is PARALLEL to the wording of Lam2:3-4 in the midst of "wrath" words [bearing in mind, Hab1:6,12 "thou hast ordained them [Chaldeans/Babylonians] TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT..." (etc)])


[the "restraining" is LIFTED, and immediately he is "REVEALED"... not 3.5yrs LATER at MID-trib... NO! ]

 

[lamad]

"BOW" often means "deception" (as does "arrows" in places). So this correlates in a great many ways; and not only that, "fits" with Luke 21:12 saying that the "BoBPs" won't commence until the 70ad events come [first] BEFORE ALL [OF THEM]!

You are trying to make it seem as if deception is the MAIN use of Toxon. That is just wrong. I can see why posttribbers think we twist scripture. I think there is FAR MORE proof that Bow as the Greek TOXON means a bow to shoot an arrow. I looked up every mention of Toxon in the Greek Septuagint. (There is only one use in the KJV)

Gen 9:13 - I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Gen 9:14 - And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:


Psalm 10:2 For behold the sinners have bent their [bow], they have prepared their arrows for the quiver, to shoot privily at the upright in heart.

Hosea 1:5 And it shall be, in that day, [that] I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezrael.

Genesis 27:3 Now then take the weapons, both thy quiver and thy bow, and go into the plain, and get me venison,

2Sa 22:35 - He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Psa 7:12 - If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

Psa 11:2 - For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.

Psa 18:34 - He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Psa 37:14 - The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Psa 46:9 - He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

Psa 58:7 - Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

Psalms 63:; 4 who have sharpened their tongues as a sword; they have bent their bow maliciously;

Psa 64:3 - Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:

Psalms 45:10 Putting an end to wars as for the ends of the earth; he will crush the bow, and break in pieces the weapon, and burn the bucklers with fire.

Psa 78:57 - But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.

Jer 6:23 - They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

Jer 9:3 - And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

Jer 46:9 - Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.

Jer 49:35 - Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might.

Jer 50:14 - Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the LORD.

Jer 50:29 - Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

Jer 50:42 - They shall hold the bow and the lance: they are cruel, and will not shew mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea, and they shall ride upon horses, every one put in array, like a man to the battle, against thee, O daughter of Babylon.

Jer 51:3 - Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host.

Jer 51:56 - Because the spoiler is come upon her, even upon Babylon, and her mighty men are taken, every one of their bows is broken: for the LORD God of recompences shall surely requite.

Hab 3: 9 Surely thou didst bend thy bow at scepters, saith the Lord. Pause. The land of rivers shall be torn asunder.

1Ki 22:34 - And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.

2Ki 13:15 - And Elisha said unto him, Take bow and arrows. And he took unto him bow and arrows.

2 Kings 1:22 From the blood of the slain, and from the fat of the mighty, the bow of Jonathan returned not empty; and the sword of Saul turned not back empty.


2Ki 13:16 - And he said to the king of Israel, Put thine hand upon the bow. And he put his hand upon it: and Elisha put his hands upon the king's hands.

1Ch 5:18 - The sons of Reuben, and the Gadites, and half the tribe of Manasseh, of valiant men, men able to bear buckler and sword, and to shoot with bow, and skilful in war, were four and forty thousand seven hundred and threescore, that went out to the war.


1Ch 8:40 - And the sons of Ulam were mighty men of valour, archers, and had many sons, and sons' sons, an hundred and fifty. All these are of the sons of Benjamin.

2Ch 18:33 - And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: therefore he said to his chariot man, Turn thine hand, that thou mayest carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.

Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow prospered in his hand.

Job 39:23 - The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.

Hos 2:20 And I will make for them in that day a covenant with the wild beasts of the field, and with the birds of the sky, and with the reptiles of the earth: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle from off the earth, and will cause thee to dwell safely.

There are 7 more but I am tired.

And you tried to make other things that "toxon" meant deceit. The truth is, even in your selected verses I think you will find bow means bow - a bow that shoots arrows but in one or two verses "deception is added as if the bow strings were lose. The point is, toxon STILL mean bow in every case. I think the decption in this case is you. It is sad to say. Do you wonder why the opposition say we twist scriptures? STOP!
I am beginning to see how you work now.

 

[lamad]

^ EDIT:

Rather, immediately in the "aftermath" of "OUR RAPTURE / THE DEPARTURE" (per 2Th2:7b-8a [kai tote!] and how the wording here is PARALLEL to the wording of Lam2:3-4 in the midst of "wrath" words [bearing in mind, Hab1:6,12 "thou hast ordained them [Chaldeans/Babylonians] TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT..." (etc)])


[the "restraining" is LIFTED, and immediately he is "REVEALED"... not 3.5yrs LATER at MID-trib... NO! ]

So find scripture to back this up! I am not just going to take your word for it!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [addressing Post #177] I already mentioned (in another post) the last three mentions in the OT (same as in your 1Chron5:18 mention):


Zec 9:10
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow H7198 shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Zec 9:13
When I have bent [to string the bow] Judah for me, filled the bow H7198 [i.e. loaded arrows] with Ephraim [/Israel], and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

Zec 10:4
Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, H7198 out of him every oppressor together.




Not sure what the problem is.

I've already said he goes [/went] forth "conquering and to conquer" (6:2)... referring to the point in time that Jesus opens that first seal (when He will "STAND to JUDGE" ... whereas presently it is, "[you have 'kept'] 'the WORD of My patient endurance' " 3:10

 

[lamad]

^ EDIT:

Rather, immediately in the "aftermath" of "OUR RAPTURE / THE DEPARTURE" (per 2Th2:7b-8a [kai tote!] and how the wording here is PARALLEL to the wording of Lam2:3-4 in the midst of "wrath" words [bearing in mind, Hab1:6,12 "thou hast ordained them [Chaldeans/Babylonians] TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT..." (etc)])

What possible meaning can parallel wording of Lam. 2 have to Revelation when it was about Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Jerusalem way back around 586 BC? "And then" does not have to mean instantly.


Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then (kai tote) shall they fast.

Did they start fasting the moment Jesus was out of sight? It is very doubtful.