When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

[lamad]

For one thing, "the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3) are not given a "time-length".

And "the things WHICH ARE" are set in contradistinction to "the things which must take place AFTER THESE [THINGS]".


John wasn't told (apparently) "how long" that "the things WHICH ARE" would continue/last.

But he WAS told (by Jesus) "I WILL SHOW you what [things] must come to pass AFTER THESE [THINGS]" [4:1] (which corresponds with what 1:1 was saying).


(SAME thing Jesus was given "TO SHOW UNTO" [in v.1], which verse spells out the length of time FOR THOSE "SHOWN" ['TO SHOW UNTO'] things... that is, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period things, aka "the 7-yr [PROPHESIED] Trib period of time"... [same time-period as both Lk18:8 and Rom16:20 also speak to (<--tho distinct locations for each of these two verses)... a specific, *future*, LIMITED time-period, what we call the Trib, or 70th Week (7 yrs)])

Remember, we are looking for your imagined 2000 years.

Don't make this more complicated than it is! It is a simple book for the most part.
Question: Did God show John things in His future and even in our future?

You will certainly agree with this point and say YES. Most of the rest of the book are things still in OUR future.

Therefore, "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" is a simple statement of fact that Jesus CERTAINLY satisfied.

"But he WAS told (by Jesus) "I WILL SHOW you what [things] must come to pass AFTER THESE [THINGS]"

Please allow me to rewrite this from first person.

I WAS told (by Jesus) (after He finished dictating to me the messages to the churches) "I WILL SHOW you what [things] must come to pass.

This is the only meaning we should get. God dictated message. Then the dictation ended. Then he saw a voice in heaven and saw an open door. Then He heard that same voice again saying "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. "

See how simple this is? Jesus made a simple statement of fact: He was going to show John things in His future. DID God do this? Decidedly yes.
Did this statement of fact forbid God to show John things in his past? Definitely not! You are reading preconceived ideas into this passage. Please don't do that. Don't give posttribbers any kind of argument. They can read too.

WHEN did this happen? around 95 AD. my friend, you cannot find 2000 years here. This happened in John's live around 95 AD. Now, what John saw in the vision is a different story. In the vision God was showing John the throne room while Jesus was still on earth.

You have tried to juxtapose what happened outside the vision to what was happening IN the vision. In doing so you were pulling what was inside the vision OUT OF CONTEXT. I can only guess you would do this to attempt to prove something false as truth.

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

From here, the theme of the book, we find again that it is to show John and then us, things in the future from that point in time: 95 AD.


AMP So write the things which you have seen [in the vision], and the things which are [now happening], and the things which will take place after these things.

CEB So write down what you have seen, both the scene now before you and the things that are about to unfold after this.

Phillips write down what you have seen, both the things which are now, and the things which are to be hereafter.

Wycliff Therfor write thou whiche thingis thou hast seyn, and whiche ben, and whiche it bihoueth to be don aftir these thingis.

Tyndale wryte therfore the thynges which thou haste sene and the thynges which are and the thynges which shalbe fulfylled hereafter:

Coverdale Wryte therfore the thinges which thou hast sene, and the thinges which are, and ye thinges which shalbe fulfylled here after:

Bishops Write therfore the thinges which thou hast seene, and the thynges which are, and the thinges which must be fulfilled hereafter.

There is not much difference from 1535 AD to the Amplified today. Again this is a statement of fact: a command imperative sentence: John, you write... I think the Amp. captures the meaning as well as any: " the things which you have seen [in the vision], and the things which are [now happening], and the things which will take place after these things."

Does any of the three: 1:1, 1:19 or 4:1 disagree with any other? No.

Conclusion? The first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

 

[Oseas3]

God is never unworthy.

You are right.

Surely, it because the Word is GOD. The Word is not unworthy in He Himself.

How can the Word - the Word is GOD - be unworthy in He Himself? Never, but never.

To say GOD is unworthy is a demonic mockery.

 

[Oseas3]

1 John 2:v. 18 to 21

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

[lamad]

Except Paul (speaking of "the DOTL's ARRIVAL / STARTING point) purposely uses the "SINGULAR" form of that word (same word Jesus used in the PLURAL) to POINT OUT the BP that COMES UPON a woman... not the ones further down along the line, well into labor.

Paul is connecting the STARTING POINTS (between "the DOTL" his epistle is covering) and Jesus' words in His Olivet Discourse, thus marking its COMMENCING.


[again, EVERYTHING in Matt24 is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"... Jesus is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse, but rather the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, and what immediately precedes and leads UP TO THAT (i.e. the 7-yr trib years, aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period--Rev1:1 [/ 1:19c / 4:1 (7:3)])]

I think you have a habit of reading into verses a preconceived idea!

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul is making a comparison of the "sudden destruction" with the rapture.

If we take this verse as a whole, a woman who begins birth pains cannot escape until birth is achieved.
Those that are left behind when those in Christ are caught up cannot escape. The "sudden destruction: will be world wide - so no place to hide, no way to escape. I think it is a worldwide earthquake caused by the rising of the dead in Christ. In this respect, no escape, it is like the woman experience a birth pain. She has no place to run or hide. She cannot escape (Unless today she agrees to a C-section!)

The real - when they say peace and safety - with no warning those in Christ are caught up and the sudden destruction comes immediately . A woman's birth pains start so gradually the first one may well be missed. I think then Paul's comparison is the fact of no escape rather than suddenness.

To try and make a point of singular vs plural may only mean the woman is alerted of birth with the first pain. I disagree that Paul is saying ANYTHING about the Day of the Lord after time passes. He is giving us the starting point of the Day of the Lord: the rapture starts the Day.

Matthew 24: 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains.
Jesus is talking in context of the wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences that will come during the church age: they are only the beginnings of birth pains. Here He is definitely saying that worse is coming. And of course during the 70th week things get much worse.

I am guessing you do a lot of copy and paste.

 

[Oseas3]

What does the Word of GOD says? The Word is GOD.

2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein you are doing foolishly.

Look, the 2 Ch 16:v.9 shows the difference between who trust in God, and who do not trust in Him, as also is written in Malachi that
shows us about the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between he that serveth God, and him that serveth Him not.

 

[lamad]

I disagree.

Only the first FOUR Trumpets occur in the first half of the Week.

The "[3] WOES" (attached to Trumpets 5,6,7 per Rev8:13) do not occur until MID-trib (and following).



[your "chronology" is entirely screwy! (I *think* because you are trying to "reason" things out a bit too much, but disregarding the text, in places... But I know that ascertaining chronology of Rev is not exactly the easiest task ever, so... I do understand = ) )]

Your last paragraph should be me to you! I did not reason anything out. I tried but failed. What I believe I got from the Master. I asked Him and I waited to know anything until He answered. When I say the first seal is the church, I did not reason that! It came straight from the word of God correctly understood. I will freely admit I COULD NOT UNDERSTAND:
Why Jesus was not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father when many verses put Him there.
Why the Holy spirit was there when in 95 AD He should have been sent down.
Why that first search ended in failure and John wrote, "no man was found."

I was slow enough or dumb enough to ask God why He included John weeping in His book and why "much." I had already learned in my life that if I asked God for wisdom He would answer. I waited around 3 years before He answered. The point is, He DID answer. it seems you don't believe His answer.

I did not reason out where the 70th week is either. I was just minding my own business reading Daniel 9:27.
When my eyes and my mind got to the word “midst” sudden God spoke to me in what seemed like an audible voice: “You could find that exact midpoint ‘clearly marked’ in the book of Revelation.”

I was dumbfounded, and could not speak, but my spirit man immediately spoke and ask “How would I find that?”

He answered, “Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.” Then, almost as an afterthought, he concluded: “In fact, you could find the entire 70th week ‘clearly marked.’” When He said this, I suddenly understood that the reason I could find the entire 70th week would be that God would use the SAME MARKER. That came as a download, not in words.

So show me your proof for the first four trumpets. Then I will show you my proof.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus Christ (the second part of the triune Godhead) was NOT found worthy

blasphemy.

Jesus is never unworthy.

what you ought to be doing is looking for the first place this lie of Satan you're trying to teach is found in scripture, and figuring out what it has to do with Revelation 5-6

funny how almost everything goes back to Genesis 3 ((there, i did your homework for you))

 

[Oseas3]

Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Timothy 4:v. 1-2

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than He? 1 Corinthians 10:v.21-22

But those things which come forth from the heart, they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed false witness, blasphemies, and
evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts.

 

[Oseas3]

blasphemy.

Jesus is never unworthy.

what you ought to be doing is looking for the first place this lie of Satan you're trying to teach is found in scripture, and figuring out what it has to do with Revelation 5-6

funny how almost everything goes back to Genesis 3 ((there, i did your homework for you))

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is

come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even

in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5:19-20

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I am guessing you do a lot of copy and paste.

No. I typed everything out, in that post.

I only "copy and paste" when I point out that I'm "quoting" an old post (or perhaps a "commentary" by another), or when quoting a verse or verses from something like BibleHub or Bible Gateway, etc.

To try and make a point of singular vs plural may only mean the woman is alerted of birth with the first pain. I disagree that Paul is saying ANYTHING about the Day of the Lord after time passes. He is giving us the starting point of the Day of the Lord: the rapture starts the Day.

I believe "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" immediately precedes "the [earthly-located-time-period-called] the DOTL"... (which itself STARTS with JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth, and is not merely "a singular 24-hr day"... After the "JUDGMENTs" aspect OF it [the 7-yrs], it also CONTINUES ON with the "BLESSINGs" aspect OF it [aka the also-earthly-located MK age--1000 yrs in length]);

IOW, *we* do not step one foot inside "the DOTL" time period (aka "IN THE NIGHT" [see Dan7:7; see Gen46:2 [during Joseph's "7 Year Famine"]; see other passages also having this phrase and relating to "ISRAEL"]); so, yes, very close proximity, but not IN IT [/starting it] (<--which is INSTEAD: Dan9:27a/26b!)

 

[lamad]

The "[3] WOES" (attached to Trumpets 5,6,7 per Rev8:13) do not occur until MID-trib (and following).

So can you prove that by scripture? Why not leave the woes where they are and let's ask John where in the week they are? Do you think he will tell us?

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We see that the division of the week will be when the daily sacrifices are stopped. "Midst" comes from a Hebrew word to divide in half, which makes an exact midpoint in the week. John proves a midpoint by has two uses of 1260 days and 42 months - proving the midpoint somewhere in chapters 11-13. Can we get closer? Yes.

What would cause the daily sacrifices to cease? I think Paul tells us:

2 thes 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Imagine a Gentile (or even anyone other than the high priest) entering the Holy of Holies! It would be an abomination! (Think back to when Antiochus did the same thing.) The Jews would immediately declare the temple polluted and the sacrifices to cease. Now, what did Jesus say?

Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand.
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

What are they to do? Flee? Without a doubt the Holy of Holies will be on camera broadcast on the internet. The world will see the man of sin enter and declare he is god. Those living in Judea will begin their fleeing seconds after the man of sin declares he is god. Where then do we find that fleeing?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Therefore, this fleeing verse is only seconds after the abomination: the man of sin entering the Holy of Holies. Jesus told me the exact division point would be "clearly marked." So let's back up verse by verse and look for a main story line event of the seals - trumpets - vials close to 12:6.

There is no trumpet of vial in 12:1-5: it is a parenthesis.
If we back up verse by verse in chapter 11, we come to the 7th trumpet. My friend, God will cause that 7th trumpet to sound when the man of sin declares he is god. It is the marker for the midpoint of the week.

Therefore, the first six seals are in the first half of the week. NO MENTION of a 3 1/2 year of time until chapter 11. But in chapter 11, TWO mentions! the 42 months of trampling and the 1260 days of fleeing. These two countdowns to the end will start just before the exact midpoint.

Therefore, woes one and two are OVER when the 7th trumpet sounds. The 7th trumpet is the 3rd woe, but the real 3rd woe is what even the 7th trumpet triggers: the war in heaven that forces Satan down to the earth, and John wrote, WOE.

Therefore I find your statements not according to the word. Human reasoning gone wrong?

 

[lamad]

blasphemy.

Jesus is never unworthy.

But in particular, He was NOT found worthy to take the book and open the seals in that first search. It is written.
It seems you just don't believe John.

Question: if Jesus had not risen, would we still be in our sins?

Remember what Paul wrote, "if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. "

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Those that are left behind when those in Christ are caught up cannot escape. The "sudden destruction: will be world wide - so no place to hide, no way to escape.

Well, that's pretty much what *I* am saying, except for one thing. The "they" in this text speaks of specific persons, rather than (as I see it) 100% of the population left on the earth following "our Rapture," IN THAT, I see *this passage* (speaking of "specific *they*")...

... is IN CONTRAST TO those (in the same time-period/location/predicament) who, IN the trib (provided they HEED Jesus' instruction, He left recorded in His written word) "WATCH ye therefore, AND PRAY ALWAYS, IN ORDER THAT ye may have strength to [ACTIVELY] FLEE OUT OF [same word!] each and every thing coming [on the earth--throughout the trib years] and to STAND BEFORE [in a judicial sense] the Son of man [His earthly designation]." Luke 21:36



[this is decidedly *distinct* from what Paul further states in 1Th5:10[6] regarding the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY (US): "...THAT whether ye may WATCH *or* whether ye may SLEEP [same "sleep" word as in v.6! (NOT meaning "died/death" here, like in chpt 4!)], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" (again, a distinct "with" word from the one used in, say, Matt25:10 re: the PLURAL virginS / FEAST (*their* earthly MK entrance)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Therefore, woes one and two are OVER when the 7th trumpet sounds. The 7th trumpet is the 3rd woe, but the real 3rd woe is what even the 7th trumpet triggers: the war in heaven that forces Satan down to the earth, and John wrote, WOE.

THIS ^ is the FIRST "WOE unto the earth" [@ MID-trib ^ (the bold, above)]

(the FIRST TIME that WOE will be "unto" there--Thus, the 5th and not the 7th Trumpet)

 

[Oseas3]

THE WORD IS GOD.

The everlasting Spirit of GOD is a FIRE, a devouring FIRE. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?

who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isaiah 33:v.14

10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.


2 Peter 3:v.7

7 But the heavens (the 1st and the 2nd heavens, that are, the Old Testament and the New Testament) and the earth (earth here is the carnal Israel, the seed of Agar) , which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE (the everlasting Spirit of GOD - the Word - is a devouring FIRE), against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This Day of Judgment arrived, thay is the seventh and last Daay, or seventh and last Millennium, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ)

 

[posthuman]

He was NOT found worthy

blasphemy.

 

[Oseas3]

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his

hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the

garden of Eden, ... So GOD drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming Sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis 3


For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mat. 25:v. 29-30

 

[Oseas3]

Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Mat. 15:v.13

The Word is GOD.

 

[Oseas3]

For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

 

[ewq1938]

But in particular, He was NOT found worthy to take the book and open the seals in that first search.

He was never found unworthy. He was simply not found right away.

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

At that time, Christ was not in heaven, in the Earth or under the Earth. Likely he was still ascending up to heaven. As soon as he entered heaven he prevailed to be worthy: Christ "hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."