Not By Works

[posthuman]

The man asked for forgiveness...no....begged for forgiveness and received it.

read it again. he did not ask for forgiveness.
he asked for time.
he said he would repay it himself. 10,000 bags of gold - a ridiculously large sum.

the servant fell on his knees before Him. ​

‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.' ​

(Matthew 18:36)​

we are talking about a man who thinks he can save himself. who thinks he can pay his own debt of sin.
this is not a believer -- a believer says, i cannot pay; i need a saviour.

the Master took pity and graciously wiped away his debt -- but erasing the debt is not what the man asked for.
the man despised the grace of the Master. this is not a person who ever believed.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

My conclusions come right from scripture.
I've been an avid, unbiased reader of scripture for 34 years and I have found it truly amazing how much of what the church teaches is not what the Bible teaches. Case in point, tithing. Their error in this subject alone should be more than enough to convince the sheep they can't just accept what pop theologians through the centuries say just because they are theologians.

Speaking of the church as a whole, we are not Bereans. We prefer to be spoon fed the doctrines that we find attractive. And after those spoon fed doctrines get passed down from generation to generation they become more and more corrupted from even what they were in the beginning. This is a problem in the church. A BIG problem. I've written it off, though, as the prophesied falling away that is to occur just before Christ returns.

The Christian Church is full of Satanically charge doctrines of demons. It is far more than natural. The majority did not receive a love of the Truth so as to be saved so GOD sent upon them a strong delusion so that they would believe THE lie. 2 Thes. 2.

The false doctrines Christians hold to here had their genesis in Genesis 3. Satan’s lie has been so effective, he hasn’t had to use another: You shall be like God and you shall also continue rebelling against Him, violating His Word. Antichrist is anti-Kingdom of God, the Gospel of which Jesus taught but the Christian church does not.

 

[Lightskin]

I've been an avid, unbiased reader

I didn’t get past ^^^^^

 

[mailmandan]

Remember, this is a parable.
This is probably a reference to the household of Israel as a whole.

Yes, like I said before. This is a parable and a hypothetical situation which is meant to demonstrate the compassion and mercy of the Lord who is willing to forgive us our sin debt. Even though the unmerciful servant received forgiveness of his very large debt (that he could never repay) in this hypothetical situation from his master, an unforgiving, unmerciful heart (which represents a wicked servant and not a born again Christian) cannot expect to receive God's ultimate forgiveness of sins.

He knew the Galatians would fall away, yet Paul clearly explains how they did in fact receive the gospel in salvation despite Him knowing the future when they would stop relying on Christ for justification.

Paul never stated that seeking justification by the law was the final answer of the Galatians who truly believed the gospel. That is your biased conclusion.

"the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:12-13

Got a problem with 'dat?
You're saying he won't answer everyone who calls on Him.

The issue isn't whether or not God really forgives someone who asks.
The issue is the condition of the heart that calls out to Him and, consequently, how deeply rooted the message of that forgiveness they have received becomes in that soil.

Everyone who sincerely calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. A person who simply begs and pleads for forgiveness from an unrepentant, unforgiving heart will not be saved.

That's right, so stop doing that (the man's family being sold into slavery is obviously not a literal feature of the principle being taught here).

Yet it's still a part of the parable that you seem determined to take literal in regards to forgiveness of sins, yet discard the rest.

Focus on what is clear in the Parable:

The servant asked for forgiveness.
The servant really did get that forgiveness.
He got it even though he obviously did not receive it in a good and noble heart.
Free gifts, forgiveness in this case of all things, can indeed be taken back.
This is how it is in the kingdom. This is how the Father will treat each of us in these circumstances.

No, that's not the main point of the parable. You continue to overlook the fact that this is a repulsive, hypothetical situation in this parable to make a point about forgiveness and God's mercy. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine born again Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. We could never pay back our sin debt (which is too large) and an unforgiving, unmerciful heart cannot expect to receive forgiveness from the Lord, although He is compassionate and willing to forgive, just as the master in the parable was willing to forgive.

The MAIN point of the parable for the purpose of this discussion is FREE GIFTS CAN AND WILL BE TAKEN BACK.

That's not it at all. God is not an indian giver. The MAIN point of the parable is the Lord is merciful and willing to forgive us our sin debt, but an unforgiving, unmerciful heart cannot expect to receive God's ultimate forgiveness of sins.

But osas is so sure gifts can not be taken back or they are not really gifts. Obviously, Romans 11:29 isn't talking about a person receiving the forgiveness of sin in salvation. But we knew that already by just reading it in context--the thing osas refuses to do in the passage.

Does irrevocable mean take back? I didn't think so. The gift of God is eternal life (Romans 6:23) not temporary life. All you care about is attacking osas and your obsession may end up driving you made one day.

 

[posthuman]

As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents of gold was brought to him.
(Matthew 18:24)


​

there's some debate, naturally, but a typically accepted value is

1 talent = 33kg

i checked the market and the current price of gold at time of writing:

1kg of Au = $54,804.12

therefore:

1 talent Au = $( 33*(54,804.12) ) = $1,808,535.96

so this man's debt:

10,000*1,808,535.96 = $18,085,359,600

eighteen billion dollars.
that's how much this guy's credit card is overdrawn.


here's your seventy-times seven, Simon Peter. this is how ridiculous the debt of sin is. how foolish it is to think you can achieve a righteousness of works, that you can do anything to cover your own sin. this is our spiritual bank account statement: oh, i dunno, about negative 20 billion dollars.

and this man says, i'll pay, just give me time, God.
i'll be justified through my work. i'll earn that much in a year, God




this is a King's ransom ((He's risen ))




the Master says, here's something, i'll forgive your debt. but what does this man do? he doesn't treat others the same way. he's owed something by another -- silver.

when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
(Matthew 18:28)
​

100 denarii, a coin weighing a tad over 3 grams

100*3.1g = 311g = 0.311kg

price of silver is currently 1 kg Ag = $504.77

0.311*504.77 = $156.98


this guy just got 18 billion dollars forgiven, said he could pay it off himself ((or did he ever plan to pay it? was his plan to run, or to kill his Master?)) - he can't be bothered to look over a hundred and fifty bucks.

 

[VCO]

Ellen G. White.

The queen of False Prophetism.

I guess she cut these verses out of HER BIBLE.

1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (ESV)
33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?
37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Being cut off from the good olive tree simply means God is done dealing with Gentiles. There will come a time when the Gentiles are cut off and He resumes His program for the nation of Israel.

You take that Scripture completely wrong... It's not in God's character to discard those who are His faithful servants. Just look at the book of Gentile Ruth, she got included into Messianic lineage even, by your predictions she would have been kicked out later because of her origins... the verse teaches the exact opposite... What it says in the verses you're refering to that they will ALSO be cut off IF they are proud, rebellious, etc. God did not forget Israel but cut off with the goal that they repent and believe and to make them jealous by pouring the Spirit on Gentiles God's plan was to be all in all in the end. That verse only teaches us to fear God and that and God isn't a respecter of persons, arrogance will warrant humbling, Jew or Gentile.

 

[John146]

You take that Scripture completely wrong... It's not in God's character to discard those who are His faithful servants. Just look at the book of Gentile Ruth, she got included into Messianic lineage even, by your predictions she would have been kicked out later because of her origins... the verse teaches the exact opposite... What it says in the verses you're refering to that they will ALSO be cut off IF they are proud, rebellious, etc. God did not forget Israel but cut off with the goal that they repent and believe and to make them jealous by pouring the Spirit on Gentiles God's plan was to be all in all in the end. That verse only teaches us to fear God and that and God isn't a respecter of persons, arrogance will warrant humbling, Jew or Gentile.

Just as God cut off the Jews, there’s coming a day when He also will be done dealing with the Gentiles. At this time, He will turn His attention back to the Jews to continue His promises for them.

 

[posthuman]

What he was showing is that he was unfit to keep God's forgiveness.
He's got crappy soil.
He does not have a good and noble heart, yet God forgave him anyway.
He really was forgiven.

who gives such a heart as this - good and noble?
and when is it given??

 

[posthuman]

The servant asked for forgiveness.

no he didn't. he asked for a continuance. he wanted to buy time.

the Master in His grace did far more than he asked


i quoted the NIV earlier for 18:32, but it is inaccurate -

Then his lord called him, and said to him, wicked servant, I forgave to thee all the debt, for thou prayedest me. ​

(Matthew 18:32 wyc)​

NIV has, because you begged me to
the text actually just says, because you begged.
no 'to' -- the man begged, for time to pay it back himself. either because he thought he could, or because he planned to flee, or because he planned to kill his lord without ever paying. to steal, kill & destroy.

 

[oldethennew]

God often uses 'exaggeration to make His point, He has to, for most of us are 'knuckleheads'...

 

[G2RBeliever]

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me,TEACHING FOR DOCTRINE THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

John7:16 Jesus answered them,and said,My DOCTRINE IS NOT MINE,BUT HIS THAT SENT ME.

1Corinthians 1:10 Now,I beech you,BRETHERN,by the NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,that ye all speak the same thing,and that there be NO divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,and strife,and DIVISIONS,are ye not carnal,and walk as men?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked,that ye WERE the servants of sin,but ye have OBEYED FROM THE HEART that form of doctrine which was delivered.

Ephesians 4:14 That henceforth be NO MORE children,tossed to and fro,and carried about with EVERY wind of doctrine,BY THE SLEIGHT OF MEN,and cunning craftiness,whereby they lie in wait to decieve.

1Corinthians2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you,SAVE JESUS CHRIST,AND HIM CRUCIFIED.

 

[JamOn]

God often uses 'exaggeration to make His point, He has to, for most of us are 'knuckleheads'...

doesn’t sound logical wouldnt that be stretching the truth, more than it really is?

 

[oldethennew]

just going by my 'own-personal' experiences...

 

[Rosemaryx]

We believe because we are born again
Thank You Lord Jesus for giving us life...
...xox...

 

[posthuman]

doesn’t sound logical wouldnt that be stretching the truth, more than it really is?

this parable in Matthew 18:23-35 given just after Peter famously asks how many times he should forgive someone? as many as 7, Simon asks? Jesus says Peter, dude, not just 7, seventy times seven! that's verses 21-22

verse 23 begins with "therefore" -- wherefore is the parable? because Peter's question is showing lack of understanding.

and then a guy with 20 billion in debt who is assaulting someone over $150. Peter, you do not understand the scale of what you've been forgiven. you don't need to be wondering if forgiving someone 5 or 6 times is pushing it -- that's evil thoughts.

it's hyperbole because humans have little natural understanding of the infinite. even 20 billion isn't really to scale -- at that cost, there are incredibly wealthy people on earth who could buy their way out of their sin debt to God. but no amount of gold can do that -- not 20 billion, trillion, not trillions of trillions -- not all the gold in the universe. all the gold is His, already. we can't give Him anything that doesn't already belong to Him

 

[JamOn]

this parable in Matthew 18:23-35 given just after Peter famously asks how many times he should forgive someone? as many as 7, Simon asks? Jesus says Peter, dude, not just 7, seventy times seven! that's verses 21-22

verse 23 begins with "therefore" -- wherefore is the parable? because Peter's question is showing lack of understanding.

and then a guy with 20 billion in debt who is assaulting someone over $150. Peter, you do not understand the scale of what you've been forgiven. you don't need to be wondering if forgiving someone 5 or 6 times is pushing it -- that's evil thoughts.

it's hyperbole because humans have little natural understanding of the infinite. even 20 billion isn't really to scale -- at that cost, there are incredibly wealthy people on earth who could buy their way out of their sin debt to God. but no amount of gold can do that -- not 20 billion, trillion, not trillions of trillions -- not all the gold in the universe. all the gold is His, already. we can't give Him anything that doesn't already belong to Him

That seems logical rather than a exaggeration

 

[Ella85]

@dcontroversal So have people worked out you don't need works to be saved

 

[azamzimtoti]

Ya could say it's a work in process.

 

[dcontroversal]

@dcontroversal So have people worked out you don't need works to be saved

Hahhaha not yet....they are still selling Jesus out while enthroning self.....Cainologists....Pharisees and working for salvation losers.....!