Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
posthuman said:
no he didn't. he asked for a continuance. he wanted to buy time.

the Master in His grace did far more than he asked

i quoted the NIV earlier for 18:32, but it is inaccurate -

Then his lord called him, and said to him, wicked servant, I forgave to thee all the debt, for thou prayedest me. ​
(Matthew 18:32 wyc)​

NIV has, because you begged me to
the text actually just says, because you begged.
no 'to' -- the man begged, for time to pay it back himself. either because he thought he could, or because he planned to flee, or because he planned to kill his lord without ever paying. to steal, kill & destroy.
Click to expand...
Interesting point. Many translations say that the wicked servant was forgiven of his huge debt because he begged or pleaded with his master. Thus, his master showed mercy and forgiveness and the huge debt of the wicked servant was forgiven until his unforgiving nature was discovered. His master in this parable was a man who did not infallibly know his wicked servant's heart (unlike the Lord, Jesus Christ who infallibly knows our hearts) and did not realize that his servant was wicked until his heart was exposed by refusing to forgive one of his fellow servants a small debt and the wicked servant even choked his fellow servant and threw him into prison until he could pay back the small debt. The parable is about forgiveness and not type 2 works salvation.

Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we have a wicked, unmerciful, unforgiving heart and to be unwilling to forgive in such a small matter would reveal such a wicked heart. In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the servant’s debt was forgiven until his unforgiving nature was discovered. In contrast, our sin debt was paid in full by Christ at the cross and is the means for God’s forgiveness. We cannot repay our sin debt to God or earn our salvation and God is not automatically going to forgive us our sin debt simply because we beg or plead with Him with a wicked heart that is unwilling to forgive others, especially in such a small matter, as in the parable. God forgives our sin debt by grace through faith (instrumental means) and forgiveness is the mark of a merciful heart that is saved.
 
  • Like
Reactions: G2RBeliever and EleventhHour
Judges1318 said:
"5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith" - 2 Corinthians 13:5
Click to expand...

“In the faith” which means are you living out what you believe. If not, fix it. It does not say, “see whether you are in Christ.” That’s a given. Paul is writing to the Church, the body of Christ at Corinth.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
 
  • Like
Reactions: EleventhHour
posthuman said:
no he didn't. he asked for a continuance. he wanted to buy time.

the Master in His grace did far more than he asked
Click to expand...
Yep.
But you're still ignoring the plain fact that forgiveness was given despite the condition of the mans heart.
Then it was taken back.
Osas swears the Father never ever takes back free gifts in the kingdom.
 
John146 said:
“In the faith” which means are you living out what you believe. If not, fix it. It does not say, “see whether you are in Christ.” That’s a given. Paul is writing to the Church, the body of Christ at Corinth.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Click to expand...
:LOL:

The extent you people will go to preserve your preconceived doctrines is amazing.

Let the Bible speak. Stop telling it what to say.
 
Phoneman-777 said:
When God takes back the Breath of Life, whether from a saint, sinner, or animal in nature (Solomon says the beasts have the SAME Breath) - the bodies return to the Earth and the Living Soul becomes a Dead Soul...ceases to be until the one or the other resurrection.
Click to expand...

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(2 Corinthians 5:8)
​
no one ever died in Christ's presence
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lightskin and EleventhHour
Judges1318 said:
:LOL:

The extent you people will go to preserve your preconceived doctrines is amazing.

Let the Bible speak. Stop telling it what to say.
Click to expand...

That’s how the Bible defines itself. There was no doubt in Paul’s mind nor the Holy Spirit who had Paul write those words that Paul’s audience in 2 Corinthians were in Christ, the Church.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lightskin and EleventhHour
Judges1318 said:
Yep.
But you're still ignoring the plain fact that forgiveness was given despite the condition of the mans heart.
Then it was taken back.
Osas swears the Father never ever takes back free gifts in the kingdom.
Click to expand...

that doesn't make the wicked servant someone who has been born of the Spirit.
it makes him someone whose debt was forgiven, by analogy, whose sin was not required of him.

so now we have to talk about atonement, its sufficiency and its application -- because Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" ((1 John 2:2))

the grace of the Master was sufficient for this wicked servant, but he rejected it, not freely giving what he had been freely given. so the Master remembered all his debt - it was not for choking and imprisoning the second servant, but for the whole debt, that this man was thrown into prison. so we're not talking about 'future sin' of the wicked servant -- we're talking about all his sin. the Master did not forget his debt.

so we're talking about someone whose debt was not forgotten.
we're talking about someone who begged for time to atone for himself, not someone who begged for forgiveness.
we're talking about someone whose debt the Master was prepared to absorb and willing to forgive, but who was ultimately held to account for it all.

you said earlier, this man didn't have a good and noble heart. brother this describes all mankind: every man is wicked, every heart a liar. it is the redeemed into which the Master puts a new heart. He doesn't come to save people who don't need saving - He doesn't come to save the righteous, but sinners. this man was never reborn; he isn't 'a goat who became a sheep and then became a goat again' but a goat who was let in with the sheep, a tare that grew among the wheat. the scriptures don't describe sheep who turn into wolves, but wolves who creep in among the sheep.

this man was not looking for grace, but he was offered it. forgiveness was prepared for him, an atonement made but not applied. the Master accounted for his debt, but did not bear it.
so we're talking about atonement -- sufficient for all, not applied to all. Jesus tasted death for every man, but only bore the sins of many. He atoned for the all the sin of the whole world, but whoever does not put their trust in Him, who does not believe that He is I AM, their sin is still reckoned to them.

in type, if we call this man a born-again believer, then we have to call the whole world saints, because propitiation was made for them all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dcontroversal, Lightskin and EleventhHour
John146 said:
That’s how the Bible defines itself. There was no doubt in Paul’s mind nor the Holy Spirit who had Paul write those words that Paul’s audience in 2 Corinthians were in Christ, the Church.
Click to expand...

yes
i'll quote it again:

purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened.​
(1 Corinthians 5:7)​
​
Paul did not consider the presence of leaven in this lump to indicate that they were unsaved. he considered it something that ought not to be there, that should be gotten rid of - but not to the point that it was damning. they truly are unleavened, temporal presence of remaining leaven notwithstanding

For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. ​
(1 Corinthians 5:7)​
 
  • Like
Reactions: dcontroversal and John146
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back