Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

mailmandan said:
I have answered all your questions just that you don't like the answer. The answer to all those question is the simple understanding that God doesn't and can not cause a few people to obey His commands so that He can reward them and also fail to cause many others to obey His commands so that He can punish them harshly.

Q. What does it mean to "keep" the commandments of God?
It simply means to keep God commandments and all commandments are summarized into one, to love one another. Keeping God's commandments is to love one another.

Q. Is keeping the commandments of God the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life or the demonstrative evidence that we know God and have received eternal life?
Keeping God's commandments is abiding in God's love (salvation/eternal life), not a means of attaining salvation/eternal life.

Q. What will these works/deeds determine for believers and what will they determine for unbelievers at the judgment?
Rom 2:6 God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Q. What is the difference between a "reward" and a "free gift?"
The only thing a spirit (an understanding) can receive as a gift or a reward is life (continual understanding). A spirit can not receive any material gift or reward and if there's such a thing as spiritual gift then it is life itself and nothing else. Eternal life is the crown, the prize, the reward there is for those that obey:

James 1:12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him.

Rom 2:6 God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

1 Cor 9:25Everyone who competes in the games trains with strict discipline. They do it for a crown that is perishable, but we do it for a crown that is imperishable.

 

[Noose]

I already covered this in post #75, 77 & 79. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/abide-in-christ.187233/page-4

Your obsession with "type 2 works salvation" and "losing salvation" is really getting old.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Nope. You haven't covered nothing.
Abraham obeyed and was called a friend of God; God did not cause Abraham to obey so that He can call him His friend.

You have to understand these things, don't be closed minded.

 

[Noose]

John 3
Romans 10

Rom 10: 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” b (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

The kind of faith that Paul is talking about here has nothing to do with what you are trying to teach here.

 

[Lightskin]

Rom 10: 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” b (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

The kind of faith that Paul is talking about here has nothing to do with what you are trying to teach here.

What am I trying to teach here precisely?

 

[Noose]

What am I trying to teach here precisely?

The faith that you are teaching is about some people going to heaven and others going to hell, a definite no.

 

[Lightskin]

The faith that you are teaching is about some people going to heaven and others going to hell, a definite no.

Where you came up with that nonsense is completely, utterly and totally beyond all reason and comprehension. I eluded to no such thing.

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan said:
I have answered all your questions just that you don't like the answer.

Actually, you have not really, but you're getting closer.

The answer to all those question is the simple understanding that God doesn't and can not cause a few people to obey His commands so that He can reward them and also fail to cause many others to obey His commands so that He can punish them harshly.

When did I say that God causes a few people to obey His commands and fails to cause others to obey His commands? Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. (1 John 2:3; 3:7-10; 4:7)

. Q What does it mean to "keep" the commandments of God?
It simply means to keep God commandments and all commandments are summarized into one, to love one another. Keeping God's commandments is to love one another.

The Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" (Strong's #5083) which means to keep, guard, observe, watch over. Believers practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

Q. Is keeping the commandments of God the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life or the demonstrative evidence that we know God and have received eternal life?
Keeping God's commandments is abiding in God's love (salvation/eternal life), not a means of attaining salvation/eternal life.

The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. So you don't believe that keeping God's commandments is the means of attaining salvation/eternal life, but apparently, you believe it's the means by which we "maintain" salvation/eternal life - "type 2 works salvation." 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. - (believers) 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. -(unbelievers) 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Q. What will these works/deeds determine for believers and what will they determine for unbelievers at the judgment?
Rom 2:6 God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Once again, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render eternal life. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9). *What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. You cannot seem to grasp that and still think the works are the basis or means by which one ultimately receives eternal life. Jesus drew the line in the sand on who will and will not be condemned in John 3:18.

Q. What is the difference between a "reward" and a "free gift?"
The only thing a spirit (an understanding) can receive as a gift or a reward is life (continual understanding). A spirit can not receive any material gift or reward and if there's such a thing as spiritual gift then it is life itself and nothing else. Eternal life is the crown, the prize, the reward there is for those that obey:

There are multiple crowns mentioned in scripture. Do you believe they all simply represent eternal life?

In 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, we read - each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. So the reward is not eternal life/salvation, which is a gift. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8)

James 1:12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him.

The Bible mentions 5 different crowns that believers may receive - https://www.compellingtruth.org/heavenly-crowns.html In Revelation 19:12, Jesus is described as having eyes that were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. Do you suppose his many crowns represent rewards or the many facets of His character and rule?

Rom 2:6 God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Like I already said. Verse 7 is descriptive of believers and verse 8 is descriptive of unbelievers.

1 Cor 9:25Everyone who competes in the games trains with strict discipline. They do it for a crown that is perishable, but we do it for a crown that is imperishable.

Heavenly crowns will be imperishable, while earthly crowns are perishable. You are still stuck on performance based works salvation.

 

[Noose]

Where you came up with that nonsense is completely, utterly and totally beyond all reason and comprehension. I eluded to no such thing.

So why the agitation if you alluded to no such thing?
Is the kind of faith you believe in about some people ascending to heaven and others descending to hell? If yes, then my point is, you are far from what Romans 10 is talking about. If not, then no worries.

 

[Noose]

When did I say that God causes a few people to obey His commands and fails to cause others to obey His commands? Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. (1 John 2:3; 3:7-10; 4:7)

You don't get saved so that you start obeying God. God (the word of God) in His entirety is a command in everyone's heart. Those that hearken unto the voice of the Lord by doing the word of God remain in God and God in them. We can only walk out of God, we don't walk into God and any idea about people doing anything whether belief or thoughts so that they walk into God is a works salvation. Not possible.

The Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" (Strong's #5083) which means to keep, guard, observe, watch over. Believers practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. So you don't believe that keeping God's commandments is the means of attaining salvation/eternal life, but apparently, you believe it's the means by which we "maintain" salvation/eternal life - "type 2 works salvation." 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. - (believers) 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. -(unbelievers) 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

I can't discuss Greek. If God really desires all men to be saved He would have made Greek to be an international language.

Once again, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render eternal life. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9). *What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. You cannot seem to grasp that and still think the works are the basis or means by which one ultimately receives eternal life. Jesus drew the line in the sand on who will and will not be condemned in John 3:18.

Again, no. Righteousness is upon the one who practices righteousness and wickedness is upon the one who practices wickedness. God does not cause a few people to do good by saving them so that He can reward them and fail to cause many others to do good so that He can harshly punish them. This is simply not in the scriptures and it's your own ideas.

There are multiple crowns mentioned in scripture. Do you believe they all simply represent eternal life?

In 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, we read - each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. So the reward is not eternal life/salvation, which is a gift. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8)

Yes, as the prophesy goes, "a third i will refine through fire"

1 Pet 1: 7so that the authenticity of your faith— more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire— may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Psalm 66:10
For You, O God, have tested us; You have refined us like silver.

James 1:3
because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.

This has nothing to do with different rewards, a spirit is life and the only reward is life eternal. Some will just have to endure much before they get it.

The Bible mentions 5 different crowns that believers may receive - https://www.compellingtruth.org/heavenly-crowns.html In Revelation 19:12, Jesus is described as having eyes that were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. Do you suppose his many crowns represent rewards or the many facets of His character and rule?

There's only one reward which is life and for those that don't obey, death. The crown of life has been described as many other things but still means life.

Heavenly crowns will be imperishable, while earthly crowns are perishable. You are still stuck on performance based works salvation.

The only imperishable thing is life eternal.

 

[mailmandan]

You don't get saved so that you start obeying God. God (the word of God) in His entirety is a command in everyone's heart. Those that hearken unto the voice of the Lord by doing the word of God remain in God and God in them. We can only walk out of God, we don't walk into God and any idea about people doing anything whether belief or thoughts so that they walk into God is a works salvation. Not possible.

Sounds like psycho babble.

I can't discuss Greek. If God really desires all men to be saved He would have made Greek to be an international language.

The New Testament was originally written in Greek then translated into various other languages. It's good to have some understanding of the Greek, otherwise you may end up without a proper understanding of certain words. I've seen people stumble over certain words in English like "keep, hope, perfect" etc.. when the Greek could have helped them in their understanding.

Again, no. Righteousness is upon the one who practices righteousness and wickedness is upon the one who practices wickedness. God does not cause a few people to do good by saving them so that He can reward them and fail to cause many others to do good so that He can harshly punish them. This is simply not in the scriptures and it's your own ideas.

A righteous person practices righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Children of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are children of God and not in order to become children of God; just as children of the devil practice wickedness BECAUSE they are children of the devil and not in order to become children of the devil. You seem to have this backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

 

[Lightskin]

So why the agitation if you alluded to no such thing?
Is the kind of faith you believe in about some people ascending to heaven and others descending to hell? If yes, then my point is, you are far from what Romans 10 is talking about. If not, then no worries.

Why the agitation? I get agitated when people make unmitigated, false claims that are polar opposite of what I post and believe.

 

[Lightskin]

Sounds like psycho babble.

Between completely twisting your words and doing the same to mine, I’d say there’s a serious issue going on with that one.

 

[Nat2019]

Gods will

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 Thessalonians 5:18
Give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus
for you.

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1 Peter 3:17
For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.

James 4:15
Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”

1 Peter 4:19
Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

Romans 8:27
And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Revelation 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

Matthew 5:19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

Is this saving faith?

This was actually faith "without" works is dead. I told the other person I made an error but couldn't correct it because they already replied.

 

[UnderGrace]

Revelation 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

Matthew 5:19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

This was actually faith "without" works is dead. I told the other person I made an error but couldn't correct it because they already replied.

Yes but is James referencing "saving faith" in his letter?
There are different parts to faith and different meanings.

 

[Nat2019]

Yes but is James referencing "saving faith" in his letter?
There are different parts to faith and different meanings.

I replied to some other message but it added on this message not sure why....

But saving faith is what I believe in the book of James.

 

[Nat2019]

I replied to some other message but it added on this message not sure why....

But saving faith is what I believe in the book of James.

Loving a brother and sister is part of Gods will and is also obeying what he commands.

 

[UnderGrace]

I replied to some other message but it added on this message not sure why....

But saving faith is what I believe in the book of James.

Well then further study may be helpful since scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[Nat2019]

Well then further study may be helpful since scripture does not contradict itself.

Faith is described differently in many different scriptures.

Hebrews 11:1-13:25
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Mark 10:52
And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.

*I read faith is too put our complete trust/confidence in something....

 

[Nat2019]

Faith is described differently in many different scriptures.

Hebrews 11:1-13:25
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Mark 10:52
And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.

*I read faith is too put our complete trust/confidence in something....

We need to believe in Jesus to be justified by Faith. So believing is also important.

 

[Nat2019]

I am not justified by the works of the law. This includes keeping the sabbath day holy. No where in the new testament are we told to keep the sabbath day holy, and no where in the new testament are the (10) commandments spoken of. We are told to follow commandments but not the 10 commandments in the old testament. Jesus is now our rest and jesus also broke the sabbath by asking the man to pick up his mat and walk, which was actually against the sabbath requirements according to the Jews. So if Jesus broke the sabbath, why should people think we need to follow it?.