Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Guojing]

Provide me that scripture and explain it please thanks😁

I already did but you found it too complex so I am breaking it down to a series of questions. What is your belief on this?

Can an unbeliever disown Satan either by

• renouncing him,
• refusing to do bad deeds or
• keep on "doing good deeds"?

 

[Noose]

Are you really saying you believe that Buddhists and others who do a lot of good works, but did not believe in Jesus's death burial and resurrection, are saved too?

It is never about religions but obedience whether people know it or not. look at these righteous of God:
Matt 25:
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

By their reaction, i can tell non of them believed in OSAS.

 

[Guojing]

It is never about religions but obedience whether people know it or not. look at these righteous of God:
Matt 25:
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

By their reaction, i can tell non of them believed in OSAS.

Your Christian beliefs on salvation are even more bizarre than Nat. Okay then.

 

[Noose]

Your Christian beliefs on salvation are even more bizarre than Nat. Okay then.

Yeaah, that's what it is.

I have a question for you then. How does a 1 year old get saved? If a child (1 year old) looses their life, do they inherit the kingdom of God or are they condemned to hell?

 

[Nat2019]

Are you really saying you believe that Buddhists and others who do a lot of good works, but did not believe in Jesus's death burial and resurrection, are saved too?

Turning away from sin means to start living In accordance with Gods word. To stop doing what God says is sinful. Buddhists dont care about the bible or Gods standards..

 

[Noose]

No I am trying to break it down to you, what Romans 5:12-19 means, and why it is silly to believe that a Christian can lose his imputed righteousness, thru his actions.

Rom 5:12-19 actually teaches the opposite.

 

[Nat2019]

Your Christian beliefs on salvation are even more bizarre than Nat. Okay then.

That's funny😉

 

[Nat2019]

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Romans 2:6 - God will render to each person according to his deeds. This does not mean that we merit eternal life based on our good deeds. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Those good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said.

Mailmadan whether or not Good works are needed for salvation, we are still expected to do them as a Christian. So either way we are not exempt.

 

[Guojing]

Yeaah, that's what it is.

I have a question for you then. How does a 1 year old get saved? If a child (1 year old) looses their life, do they inherit the kingdom of God or are they condemned to hell?

Most churches believe that although all babies are born with Adam's sinful nature, they are not to be held accountable until a certain age when they know what is right or wrong, definitely not at 1 year old, so that child will go to heaven.

 

[Nat2019]

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
We are saved for good works yes of course we are and not by our own good works
Romans 2:6 - God will render to each person according to his deeds. This does not mean that we merit eternal life based on our good deeds. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Those good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said.

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Romans 2:6 - God will render to each person according to his deeds. This does not mean that we merit eternal life based on our good deeds. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Those good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said.

We are saved for good works yes you are correct and not by our own works. I have always believed this🤣

 

[Guojing]

That's funny😉

Do you have an answer to my question to you? If you don't want to answer, I am fine too.

 

[Nat2019]

Do you have an answer to my question to you? If you don't want to answer, I am fine too.

Do you mean satan controlling unbelievers and them having no free will. Yes they are in control of satan until they come to the Lord. And then they become free from sin through his blood.

 

[Nat2019]

No I am trying to break it down to you, what Romans 5:12-19 means, and why it is silly to believe that a Christian can lose his imputed righteousness, thru his actions.

So if someone his imputed righteousness and they live like the devil, can they go to heaven?

 

[Noose]

Most churches believe that although all babies are born with Adam's sinful nature, they are not to be held accountable until a certain age when they know what is right or wrong, definitely not at 1 year old, so that child will go to heaven.

It is not about what the churches believe, it is what Jesus taught:

Matt 18:3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

So, i repeat, even you who knows right from wrong and are accountable, if you don't change and become like a one year old, you shall not inherit the kingdom.

I know, the bible talks a lot about salvation through faith and grace and never our own works, but you must be careful to understand what these words mean.

 

[Guojing]

Do you mean satan controlling unbelievers and them having no free will. Yes they are in control of satan until they come to the Lord. And then they become free from sin through his blood.

What deeds to do is always a choice that all of us can make, Christians or non Christians. As Christians we believe that no amount of good deeds can ever save someone in the eyes of God.

So its not about unbelievers not having free will, but the problem is rather the sin nature that all of us originally got from our ancestor, Adam.

You get what I am saying so far?

 

[Nat2019]

Okay let me break it down for you.

Can an unbeliever disown Satan either by

• renouncing him,
• refusing to do bad deeds or
• keep on "doing good deeds"?

In order to do Good deeds according to the bible we need to know God first and the holy spirit comes within us. We need to watch and pray we will resist temptation for the spirit is willing but the flesh weak. So we cant do good works for God without God. We need God first and we need to be born again first. But we can still choose to live by the flesh and ignore the spirit.

 

[Nat2019]

What deeds to do is always a choice that all of us can make, Christians or non Christians. As Christians we believe that no amount of good deeds can ever save someone in the eyes of God.

So its not about unbelievers not having free will, but the problem is rather the sin nature that all of us originally got from our ancestor, Adam.

You get what I am saying so far?

As a non Christian your good deeds are not for God are they. So good deeds of unbelievers are unvaluable to God because alot them have selfish motives. God looks at the heart and motives to why we do things. And his commandments are not obeyed by the ungodly.

 

[Nat2019]

As a non Christian your good deeds are not for God are they. So good deeds of unbelievers are unvaluable to God because alot them have selfish motives. God looks at the heart and motives to why we do things. And his commandments are not obeyed by the ungodly.

Why would an unbeliever care about Gods commands?. So the good works of the ungodly are not good works to God.

 

[Guojing]

As a non Christian your good deeds are not for God are they. So good deeds of unbelievers are unvaluable to God because alot them have selfish motives. God looks at the heart and motives to why we do things. And his commandments are not obeyed by the ungodly.

I can see that you don't really understand why God rejects all of Adam's descendants. You think its a combination of sinful deeds as well as the sinful nature.

Thus, it made sense to me why you believe, even after one receives Christ imputed righteousness, the onus is still on him to do good deeds in order to stay righteous.

 

[Nat2019]

We are saved for good works yes you are correct and not by our own works. I have always believed this🤣

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Romans 2:6 - God will render to each person according to his deeds. This does not mean that we merit eternal life based on our good deeds. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Those good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said.

So how much "obeying" does it take before believing saves? It would appear that you teach we are saved "by" believing + obedience/works. That is not what we read in John 5:24 or in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28 etc..). Salvation by belief/faith + works is not what scripture teaches (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith (James 2:14) but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Works-salvationists tend to confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

So how many works does it take? In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

I put faith with works is dead. Then underneath you write it doesnt mean this or that. I never said it meant many of those things you are writing down. I just wrote faith without works is dead- just a simple statement. I didnt talk about trees who are dead and bear fruit etc etc. I never even wrote this stuff. This is more an assumption through what you think i believe. Because no where did i ever say faith+works. But faith that produces good works. And i am not a works salvationist, because I don't believe I can get to heaven without Jesus.